What Does the Pope Say About Female Servers?

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I think the Deacon makes a great point that is at the heart of the discussion about female altar servers. Doctrine is very different than discipline. As a new and excited Catholic, I am sometimes amazed at the discussions about the rules of Mass. Very important to get meaning of words stated to avoid misunderstandings.

In the protestant world the same discussions are held but it is of course agueing about bible passages and there meaning…baptism for babies, sprinkle or sink, one saved always saved, music styles, preaching to the saved or the unsaved. I have such hope to work out my salvation, have my eternity in Heaven, and get the answers we discuss so much about in this life!!! It makes me sad to think of the pain Christ had in Gethsemane over the breaks from the Holy Catholic Church.

So happy to be a Catholic Christian who now worships in the fullness of the Faith!!!
 
The does not have any practice of caving in on fundamental truths or else birth control would have been acceptable years ago. The chuch does change its practice in matters of tradition. I don’t know of anywhere in the bible where is says servers should be male only? Bible verse? Is there anything even about servers?
weepixie71 said:
oh its just a matter of time before they let women be priests. the Catholic church already has the reputation of being chauvinistic pigs. and we know that they cave every time to the pressures eventually. i mean come one we accomplished all the other male roles. what is to stop us now.
so i hope you understand now, that it is hard to take magisterium seriously when the say there will never be female priests. to be honest conservative Catholics joke about it all the time.
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alter boys are on record of being part of the Catholic church history since 251AD. never on record were any females found being a server in the churches history before now.
i have heard of nuns in the convents assisting a priest but nothing proven that this really took place and if so it was it was not approved by the pope.

it is nice if a priest has an alter boy but it is not necessary. that is what makes this whole thing so goofy. it didnt really need to be done. its like a thing vatican II did just to make traditionalist have to swallow another nasty pill. for nearly two thousand years the gender has never changed. pope after pope said no to female servers.

as for birth control… a lot of people unless they really look into it do not know this but they are an abortification. since the pill gives you false periods you can be pregnant and not know it and the pill can starve the embryo to death or can cause serious medical problems do to the lack of nutrients. it is also proven that it can give women cancer. some deadly some not. so i would hope that the Catholic church would never ok anything what would harm or kill any human being. to me this is a far cry from gender roles.
 
Female altar girls are a novelty, which, added to a list of others, inline me not to take the Novus Ordo Mass, as currently, commonly said, seriously.

I stopped going to Mass in the late '70’s, I think. I only knew the N. O. Mass. I was a teenager. I came back to the church in 2007, I think. I noticed even more novelties had been introduced, as I now understand them, like female altar servers.

I then found out about the Latin Mass. I like it far better. It’s ‘hardcore’! The N. O. Mass seems more Protestant. Like, I heard of ‘Charismatic Masses’, where people are very demonstrative, singing and clapping and ‘speaking in tongues’(?)

Now when I go to the N. O. Mass, to fulfil a Sunday obligation, the demonic part of my nature laughs cynically at just how bowdlerised it can be.

The part of me I perceive as angelic is grieved. Why do people now seem to be pleasing themselves rather than Christ The King in His temple?

I’ve read the arguments about validity and obedience. **I have to say, as a ‘punter’ who sits at the back, the Latin Mass beats the N.O. in the appearance of holiness, if nothing else. ** I don’t think you can assume everyone attending is theologically advanced.

Beautiful chant, solemnity, everyone facing the tabernacle, a foreign, yet familiar language and the absence of distractions like female servers or your neighbours reading lessons all help to keep the ‘boys in the back’ from fidgeting, and thereby save some souls.
 
weepixie71 said:
alter boys are on record of being part of the Catholic church history since 251AD. never on record were any females found being a server in the churches history before now.
i have heard of nuns in the convents assisting a priest but nothing proven that this really took place and if so it was it was not approved by the pope.
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I’m curious where you got the date of 251 AD with reference to altar boys (note the correct spelling of “altar”).

There is much recorded history that shows nuns were given permission to serve at the altar when there were no men (usually in monastic settings). It is also part of the Church’s history that women were ordained as deacons. The would then receive communion following deacons at the altar. Whether or not this was Holy Orders is an ongoing discussion that has, so far, taken over 100 years and not been resolved.

One opinion is that it was a blessing that set the woman aside for service. The other opinion is that is was more than just a blessing since the format was identical to that of a man being ordained a deacon, it took place at the altar, and the woman received a stole from the bishop’s hand – all evidence of a real ordination. Still, whether or not it was sacramental is something that is actively debated.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon_Ed said:
I’m curious where you got the date of 251 AD with reference to altar boys (note the correct spelling of “altar”).

There is much recorded history that shows nuns were given permission to serve at the altar when there were no men (usually in monastic settings). It is also part of the Church’s history that women were ordained as deacons. The would then receive communion following deacons at the altar. Whether or not this was Holy Orders is an ongoing discussion that has, so far, taken over 100 years and not been resolved.

One opinion is that it was a blessing that set the woman aside for service. The other opinion is that is was more than just a blessing since the format was identical to that of a man being ordained a deacon, it took place at the altar, and the woman received a stole from the bishop’s hand – all evidence of a real ordination. Still, whether or not it was sacramental is something that is actively debated.

Deacon Ed
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Women were not “ordained” as deacons! Jimmy Akin addressed this on Catholic Answers recently. A deaconess was not an ordained Deacon! :eek:
 
savienu said:
Women were not “ordained” as deacons! Jimmy Akin addressed this on Catholic Answers recently. A deaconess was not an ordained Deacon! :eek:
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Unfortunately, Jimmy’s answer was both incomplete and wrong. Women were ordained. The question is whether or not the ordination resulted in Holy Orders (different question). Remember that the term “ordination” used to be applied to many different events other than the conferral of Holy Orders. Men were “ordained” as lectors, as acolytes and even as porters – none of which implied Holy Orders.

We have to be careful about terminology – and this is where Mr. Akin was lacking in his reply.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon_Ed said:
Unfortunately, Jimmy’s answer was both incomplete and wrong. Women were ordained. The question is whether or not the ordination resulted in Holy Orders (different question). Remember that the term “ordination” used to be applied to many different events other than the conferral of Holy Orders. Men were “ordained” as lectors, as acolytes and even as porters – none of which implied Holy Orders.

We have to be careful about terminology – and this is where Mr. Akin was lacking in his reply.

Deacon Ed
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Please back up your statements with evidence.
 
savienu said:
Please back up your statements with evidence.
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I’m happy to do so. The ordination rite for women deacons is found here: anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm

Note that this page is from a priest of the Orthodox Church, but the same text can be found in the Vatican library in Greek. One early text is the Barberini Gr. 336 manuscript that came from the library of Cardinal Francis Barberini. That ms. was written in the Byzantine tradition.

There are several studies of the practice of the Early Church with regard to the women being ordained as deacons. The most easily accessible is a book from Kyriaki Karidoyanes FitzGerald called Women Deacons in the Orthodox Church: Called to Holiness and Ministry (Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1998). There is also a canonical study from the Canon Law Society of America (this used to be online but I don’t see it right now). You might also look at this: people.hofstra.edu/Phyllis_Zagano/research.html

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon_Ed said:
There are several studies of the practice of the Early Church with regard to the women being ordained as deacons. The most easily accessible is a book from Kyriaki Karidoyanes FitzGerald called Women Deacons in the Orthodox Church: Called to Holiness and Ministry (Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1998). There is also a canonical study from the Canon Law Society of America (this used to be online but I don’t see it right now).
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See here for a link to the order page for the CLSA study.

See here for a link to the Amazon page for the report from the five year study conducted by the Vatican.

Whether or not early deaconesses received the sacrament of Holy Orders is still an open question in the Catholic Church, with arguments being made by theologians on both sides of the issue. The Magisterium has yet to rule on the matter.
 
Just_Lurking said:
Whether or not early deaconesses received the sacrament of Holy Orders is still an open question in the Catholic Church, with arguments being made by theologians on both sides of the issue. The Magisterium has yet to rule on the matter.
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Right! That’s the point I was making. They were ordained (a term that was used very broadly in the Church until the Council of Trent) but whether or not it was sacramental, that is, Holy Orders, is still being debated.

Deacon Ed
 
maurin said:
but it was a cultural thing…how uncharacteristically unecumenical of you, Deacon.
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No, not at all. Rather I recognize intrinsic evil where it is found and comment on it (unless, of course, I can fix it). Ecumenism does not call us to embrace evil but to reveal it to the light of faith and reason.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon_Ed said:
I tire of this discussion since it goes nowhere. Enjoy your life.

Deacon Ed
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Wow. I don’t understand that rebuke. I thought people were making some pretty good points.

It makes one wonder what all this talk about empowering the laity is about. What, we’re empowered to agree with liberals, otherwise . . . it goes nowhere.
 
ASD said:
Wow. I don’t understand that rebuke. I thought people were making some pretty good points.

It makes one wonder what all this talk about empowering the laity is about. What, we’re empowered to agree with liberals, otherwise . . . it goes nowhere.
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If you read the discussion the same points were being raised over and over, even after I had addressed them. My points were being largely ignored. That’s not dialogue.

Deacon Ed
 
Catholic encyclopedia has this to say about “deaconnesses”:

newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm

“The subject of the precise status of the deaconess is confessedly obscure and confused, but two or three points at any rate seem worth insisting on. In the first place there were no doubt influences at work at one time or another which tended to exaggerate the position of these women-helpers. This tendency has found expression incertain documents which have come down to us and of which it is difficult to gauge the value. Still there is no more reason to attach importance to these pretensions than there is to regard seriously the spasmodic attempts of certain deacons to exceed their powers and to claim, for example, authority to consecrate. Both in the one and the other case the voice of the Church made itself heard in conciliar decrees and the abuse in the end was repressed without difficulty. Such restrictive measures seem to be found in the rather obscure 11thcanon of Laodicea, and in the more explicit 19th canon of the Council of Nicaea, which last distinctly lays down that **deaconesses are to be accounted as lay persons and that they receive no ordination properly so called **(Hefele-LeClercq, Conciles, I, 618).”
 
savienu,

The article in the old Catholic Encyclopedia draws upon only a couple of sources. Part of that is because the ordination ceremony was unknown to the author of that article since the document was “buried” in the Vatican library.
Additionally, research on the ordination of women is something that, for the Latin Church, has been carried out only in the last 30 years or so. For the Orthodox Church it has had a much more thorough examination. Evidence of that is found in their more detailed research. However, that women were ordained as deacons is conceded by Rome. This is born out in the statement found on the Catholic Bishop’s page: usccb.org/comm/archives/2003/03-133.shtml where the salient information is:
The possibility of ordaining women to the diaconate is still an unsettled question in the Catholic Church. Latin rituals for ordaining deaconesses exist from as late as the 10th century, but the precise sacramental nature of these ordinations has not yet been determined authoritatively. There are recent indications that the Holy See intends to continue the exclusion of women from this office.
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Regardless of what is found in the Catholic Encyclopedia it is clear that women were ordained.

Deacon Ed
 
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