What does the process of discipleship look like for a Catholic?

[mmmcounts]

It might help if you take a look at some links that show you where I’m coming from. That might help you explain what makes your experience similar and different from mine.

relationalconcepts.org/Short%20Topics–printable/Seven%20Principles%20of%20Biblical%20Discipleship.pdf
navigators.org/us/ministries/cdm/idc/resources/GSA8w.pdf
thebiblestudypage.com/discipleship7.shtml

The best summary I can give is this: My experience of discipleship over the last couple of years has been one of a guy investing time in discipling me, and this was done with the intention of enabling me to disciple others. That’s the idea of third-generation fruitfulness. We met together for various scheduled kinds of things, but it was also relational and life-on-life in the sense that we would spend approximately equal amounts of time doing structured stuff as unstructured, relational, purely hang-out stuff. (He will be preaching Christ and Him crucified in India over the course of the next two and a half years). I also did some similar things with another couple of guys, but it was more of a peer-to-peer thing rather than a mentor-mentee deal. The main guy in that group that I spent the most time with will bounce all around the US getting more training in the Army before he winds up in southeast Asia. We’ll all go our separate ways, but we’ll all hook up with more people and continue doing the same thing. After the various experiences we’ve gone through, we’re ready to take more confident steps in initiating these kinds of things, evangelizing and training others to evangelize, and doing a little more teaching at various levels. Again, we’re looking ahead to the third and fourth generations. We’re all at different places, but we’re all looking to grow and mature by letting God do sweet stuff in our lives, and it’s always good when that can be mediated by someone who’s had more growth and maturity happen. Likewise, we want to hang with people who haven’t seen as much of this so we can help them take meaningful steps. And, of course, it’s important to never stop evangelizing.

I’ve done a little bit of limited searching to see what discipleship looks like for Catholics. So far, it seems like it’s a bit different from what I’ve been doing. This is how I see it, though. If I really want to find out what’s what, I should probably just ask. So that’s what I’m doing.

I know I was pretty vague on the “structured stuff,” but if I explained everything, it would cover about 20 pages. A minimal description would be one of knowing God, loving God, and living in obedience to God. And, of course, learning to reproduce that in others. It was nice of my friend to go to all the trouble of discipling me, and it was really beneficial. Someone did the same for him (he’s going to India next week as well), and someone did the same for him, too (though I’m not sure who that was…I think I know, but I’m not entirely sure). Anyway, now I’m doing it too.

That’s me. What’s up with you guys?

 

[terrysa]

I think what you are describing is the processes of evangelization and conversion. I can only speak from my own experience as a cradle Catholic.

Persons wishing to become Catholic will take a formal instruction called the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults) with the priest and several other good Catholic lay-people/teachers. This is a process that can take several months and each person is encouraged to go at his/her own pace.

Aside from that, personal conversion is a more organic process, where the focus of the lay Catholic person (as opposed to those in the Holy Orders such as a priest, brother, or nun) is on personal spiritual growth: conversions will grow naturally out of that personal relationship with Jesus. Daily spiritual conversion and catechetical instruction is given at the hands of our mother, brothers, sisters, friends, school-teachers, neighbors…as a matter of everyday life in the Catholic community: centered around the parish church and school.

Most Catholic lay people feel that we are all called to different work in the community, formal evangelization (i.e. preaching) being a gift given to a few who are called to do so (people who are called to missionary or monastic life, and of course priests, who travel and preach the Good News more formally.) However, we do feel a responsibility to evangelize on a smaller scale, by living our lives according to Christ’s teachings, by example, and through prayer.

I hope this helps!

peace and blessings,

Terrysa

 

[Cat]

I was evangelical Protestant (I grew up with John Ortberg–that should give you an idea of the kind of church I grew up in!).

I know what you’re talking about when you say “discipleship.”

My husband and I converted to Catholicism in 2004. We continue to be “discipled.”

BTW, Catholics use the term “conversion” instead of “discipleship,” because we are being “converted” constantly from sinful humans to humans who are like Christ. Same thing. Don’t be confused by the use of this word, OK? It means the same thing as you mean when you say “discipleship.”

I would say that Catholics are “converted” or “discipled” much like Protestant Christians. There is a lot of “one on one” discipleship going on in Catholic parishes. People called by God and trained as “Spiritual Directors” will work with Catholics who are interested in exploring a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ.

There are also lots of parishes that use small groups, much like you describe. My parish does this. The groups are created after people attend the “Light of the World” retreat–the retreat group becomes a new “cell group” and continues to meet. The groups usually do some kind of Bible study and/or prayer time, along with social involvement and service to each other and to their parish and community. Many of the groups eventually fall apart, but there are quite a few that have continued to meet for years.

Another set of small groups was created three years ago when the diocese did the “Why Catholic?” program–a study of the entire Catechism of the Catholic Church. Again, most of these small groups broke up after the study was completed, but my small group kept meeting. We are a diverse group of Catholics, but we somehow find strength and encouragement meeting and helping each other grow in our faith.

BTW, the “Why Catholic?” program was similiar to many of the discipleship programs that evangelical Protestants do. I went through a Navigators program years ago, and also did the Transferable Concepts through Campus Crusade for Christ (wow, that dates me!).

Our diocese does a ministry formation program for people who are interested in a more formal training for lay-service in the Church. It is a two-year program, very intense.

And there are many many Bible studies and prayer groups that people can join. There is a men’s group that meets every Tuesday at 6:00 A.M.

There are other more formal “discipleship” programs through various orders. I know that lay people can join the orders (monks and nuns) and remain lay people, but I don’t know much about it. One of my friends is a lay Carmelite.

There’s also Opus Dei, but I don’t know much about it except that it is for Catholics who are interested in a more intellectual theological study. One of my friends told me that I would probably fit in well with Opus Dei.

And of course, there are the old stand-bys–private Bible study and prayer–the “Quiet Time!” or “Morning Watch!” or “Devotions.” MANY Catholics are involved in some kind of “Quiet Time”–I’ve found that more Catholics actually do this than Protestants! Protestant talk a lot about their Quiet Time, but many don’t actually get around to doing it. But Catholics do all kinds of devotions that help keep them close to God and help them to better know Jesus. Some pray what’s called the “Office”, which consist of praying various Psalms, usually three times a day. Others pray various rosaries and chaplets, most of which have Scriptural passages that we are supposed to meditate on during our prayer. Many Catholics pray a “Morning Offering” and an “Evening Offering”–I’m still trying to get into this habit, which I think is excellent.

I realize that there is a lot that I don’t know about this area of Catholicism, but I think you’ll find that there are many opportunities for Catholics to be discipled in their faith. It’s really wonderful, so much “richer” than anything I ever found in the evangelical Protestant churches.

 

[pipper]

mmmcounts, I would be very carefull with discipling from the Protestant point of view. Some of those discipling groups turn into controlling cults not saying that your’s will mind you, but some do.

I am speaking mostly of the Boston/International church of Christ. They are accepted as being a mind-control cult, of the discipling category.

Personally I know a young man who was at college was approached by the ICofC cult and succumbed to them. He was originally not allowed to date, and when he was he was only allowed to date women is mentor had picked. He was not allowed to correspond with his parents or anyone else outside the cult, not even allowed to listen to the radio, or watch TV.

I knew this man after he had been deprogrammed and returned to the parish. He came accross as being shell-shocked, afraid of eveything, not a pretty sight.

I’m not belittling you or your Protestant faith. but please be carefull.

 

[peterson28]

Quote
Biblical discipleship is the act of one person intentionally impacting the life of some other person in the direction of Christlikeness (2 Timothy 2:2).

While there are many opportunities to interact with groups in the Catholic church I prefer a more individual approach.
I receive “discipleship” every Sunday listening to my priest give his homily and lead the parish in living a Christian life. I receive Holy Communion and am strengthened by the Body and Blood of Christ.
I go to confession and confess to God where I have failed in living a Christian life. I admit my sins, show contrition and am absolved of my sins by God. A big stumbling block for myself was admitting to another that I had sinned and made mistakes. But by admitting sins and failings you can learn from them and improve yourself in living a Christian life.

This is how I am called to be more Christlike.

 

[Cat]

mmmcounts, I showed my husband this thread this morning.

He pointed out that you will often hear “discipling” referred to as “formation” in the Catholic Church. So don’t be thrown off if you hear that term.

He also pointed out that the training to become a Spiritual Director is long and intense. A person can’t just appoint themselves a “Spiritual Director.”

I think this is important, and something that I appreciate about the Catholic Church. When I was Protestant, the trend was to ask someone that we respected to “disciple us.” A friend and I were discipled by a godly older woman while we were in high school. We met with her once a week and went through several Bible studies.

Well, it turned out she wasn’t so godly. I’m not going to go into details, but apparently, she had quite a reputation among the men in our church.

I think it’s good when there is some kind of criteria by which a person has authority to disciple. For eg., in our Why Catholic small group, the leader attends weekly classes taught by our priests, and the material in the book is reviewed in these classes, and the small group leaders are taught how to teach it. She doesn’t just give us “her opinion” of the study book, or facilitate “discussion about what the study guide means to us.” She passes down to us the teaching that she has received from an ordained minister of God.

 

[EasterJoy]

I would echo what other posters have pointed out: you’re not going to hear the same vocabulary used in the CC with regards to evangelizing. There are getting to be more and more people, even laypeople, formally trained and sent out to do what you’re talking about, though. (See “Evangelizers Trained to Welcome”, 10/1/99 edition of the Oregon Catholic Sentinel (catholicsentinel.com/node/4045)).

What you will find in Catholic evangelizers that you won’t find in the Protestant version, of course, is the Mass, which is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” Praying and studying Scriptures is important, but a Catholic evangelizer has to keep up an intimate relationship with Our Lord in the Eucharist. This will inevitably lead to a regular habit of confession, as well. These two things make a huge difference. A Catholic evangelizer also takes care not to become a “denomination of one”, who goes out and proclaims the Gospel without constant care that he or she is actually passing on the faith as it has been handed down in an unbroken line from the Apostles.

A Catholic evangelizer should not be interested in making personal adherents, either, but should direct new disciples to the influence of the greater Church: her teachings, her liturgies, her sacraments, and the many charisms of her sons and daughters. No one gets all the gifts the Spirit provides, something the evangelizer ought to make clear from the beginning. (For instance, in the Catholic Church, an evangelizer and a spiritual director will have quite different tasks and will cultivate different gifts.) Unlike some other groups, the idea is not to create a hothouse atmosphere based on personally-based allegiance with certain Christian leaders or even a relationship with Our Lord that is based only on emotion or concern with the self.

Within all of that, though, there is more than one charism, even among those who actively seek for ways to preach and evangelize outside the confines of the Church, and a rich variety of ways that it is done.

 

[mmmcounts]

Most Catholic lay people feel that we are all called to different work in the community, formal evangelization (i.e. preaching) being a gift given to a few who are called to do so (people who are called to missionary or monastic life, and of course priests, who travel and preach the Good News more formally.)

There’s four kinds of soil. Only one of them is the good kind, and that’s the one that “yields 30, 60, and 100 fold.” If you’re yielding nothing, it doesn’t mean you missed out on a spiritual gift. It means you’re not being good soil. Thorns and rocks are the only other two options I can suggest. Jesus tells his disciples what kinds of things they correspond to in life. You figure it out.

It may be true that most lay Catholics do not resemble good soil. I’m pretty certain that the “most” qualifier allows me to say it’s actually a clear and present reality. That doesn’t mean it’s a good one. The general message here is this: Take a look and ask yourself if you could be described as good soil. If not, don’t be convinced that this is OK. Most of your fellow Catholics will tell you it’s OK, but that might not be a good thing. I know you have this general rule about ignoring Protestants, and especially so when most Catholics say something a bit different. See if you can make an exception here, though.

However, we do feel a responsibility to evangelize on a smaller scale, by living our lives according to Christ’s teachings, by example, and through prayer.

That’s not evangelism. This is evangelism:

Zealous preaching and advocacy of the gospel.

Evangelism is the Christian practice of proselytisation. The intention of most evangelism is to effect eternal salvation to those who do not follow the Christian God; others believe it is to inform others about the Kingdom of God.

Sharing news of something in order to convince someone to join or otherwise accept it.

evangelist - a preacher of the Christian gospel.

And here’s one pretty interesting and slightly related factoid-
A technical or technology evangelist is a person who attempts to build a critical mass of support for a given technology in order to establish it as a technical standard in a market that is subject to network effects.
If a computer guy were to use a given technology within his own home in an exemplary manner and hope that a few people would notice and ask him about it, do you think he would succeed in building a critical mass of support for that technology? Keep in mind that he operates in an environment where his competitors (unlike him) are zealously advocating a similar product, though it lacks a few of the components that he cares the most about. Is such a person really even trying? In both the process and its effects, is it at all fair to equate these two marketing strategies?

Were you thinking about Protestants and Catholics when you read the bit about competitors with similar products? You shouldn’t have been. Think instead about how a Muslim behaves when adhering to Islam. Lots of prayer, modesty is encouraged, giving to the needy happens…it’s pretty hardcore, at least when you follow all of it. If you and the Muslim are both obedient to the actions asked of you by your religion except where you differ on evangelism, who do you think is going to gain the next convert? I submit that the one who doesn’t talk to any potential converts will not yield much. Then the opportunity’s gone.

I hope this helps!

Thanks, me too.

 

[mmmcounts]

mmmcounts, I showed my husband this thread this morning.
He pointed out that you will often hear “discipling” referred to as “formation” in the Catholic Church. So don’t be thrown off if you hear that term.

Just gonna point out how the term “disciple” is used in the Bible quite a bit, and that’s where I got it from. This is at least the third time now that I’ve used a term found pretty regularly in the Bible and a number of Catholics have felt the need to put the term in quotes or avoid it in favor of something else. What’s up with that? Do you think they call it “formation” because that’s actually what they do, whereas they don’t do much discipleship?

He also pointed out that the training to become a Spiritual Director is long and intense. A person can’t just appoint themselves a “Spiritual Director.”

Quite a few of my friends have gone through a similar training program. Except it’s non-Catholic, of course. It usually takes a year. You can do it in 9 months, but you’ll need to write some support letters to pull it off. It’s good practice, though- a lot of the people who go through it wind up planting churches somewhere in the 10-40 window for at least a couple of years afterwards.

When I was Protestant, the trend was to ask someone that we respected to “disciple us.” A friend and I were discipled by a godly older woman while we were in high school. We met with her once a week and went through several Bible studies.

That’s it? I might put that version of “discipling” in the same category as “evangelism by not talking to people about Jesus.” What exactly did this Protestant church put forward as their operational definition of “disciple?” For that matter, what’s yours? You can provide links if you like. I like links.
Let me put it this way: When you say you’re going to disciple someone, that has a particular meaning. If the actual situation is one where an old lady tells you her opinions on the Bible, it’s not very honest to call it discipling.

It seems like your old Protestant church did something that wasn’t discipleship but they called it that anyway. Now you’re part of a Catholic church where they do something that isn’t ever referred to as discipleship, which probably tends to be accurate. You seem to think it’s close enough that it’s worth talking about, though.

Well, it turned out she wasn’t so godly. I’m not going to go into details, but apparently, she had quite a reputation among the men in our church.

Yes, just because a person holds a certain position does not mean they will be above reproach. It does mean they should be, but it does not mean they will be. This includes priests. Some of them have quite the reputation among the young lads of the church. I won’t go into details either, but I will allude to glass houses and that will be all.

I think it’s good when there is some kind of criteria by which a person has authority to disciple.

Me too. The guy discipling me got tons of training. At the end of the training program, there is an intense pass/fail practicum/exam-ish thing that he had to do well on in order to go plant churches in India. He doesn’t wear any funny costumes, but that doesn’t mean he put any less work in. I assume you’re using “authority” to refer to something that’s earned by hard work and dedication- which you or I could do, by the way.

She doesn’t just give us “her opinion” of the study book, or facilitate “discussion about what the study guide means to us.”

The way you’re putting things in quotes here, it’s almost as if you’re attributing those statements to me. Or maybe you found it in the links I posted. Which link was it?

She passes down to us the teaching that she has received from an ordained minister of God.

She passes down approved teaching on the traditions of the Catholic Church and tells you to follow them. This is a bit different from being a disciple of Jesus. I might do this a bit too much, but here’s yet another dictionary definition:

Disciple- someone who believes and helps to spread the doctrine of another.

Just so you know where I’m at right now, I currently am of the opinion that you are not getting discipled. If you want to check with your “Why Catholic?” instructor, just ask her an open-ended question about it. Tell her to give you a bunch of words that describe what she’s doing when she talks to you guys, then ask her to put a bunch of labels on her role in the process. Also ask what kinds of words she would use to describe the people going through the program, especially once they’ve done a good job of putting all the instruction into practice. See if the word “disciple” comes up in any form. Do you think it will? I’m going to suggest it won’t, because that’s not the function or purpose of the class- stated or otherwise. I’ll also say it’s good that the stated purpose matches the functional reality, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with being involved in something that doesn’t directly pertain to discipleship. It doesn’t make it bad. It just happens to be “not discipleship.” There’s tons of good things that are “not discipleship.”

I don’t know if you’ll be willing to agree to any of that, but in the event that you are, I’m curious to know if you’d be interested in pursuing discipleship- starting with the extremely basic definition of what a disciple is. A disciple of Jesus is one who believes and helps to spread the doctrine of Jesus. Starting from that basic foundation, is this something you would want to do? Why or why not?

Like I said, I like links. So here’s another one. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/disciple

A person who learns from another, especially one who then teaches others. You? A disciple? Can you imagine? Is it really OK to do that? (I say yes).

 

[Cat]

Just gonna point out how the term “disciple” is used in the Bible quite a bit, and that’s where I got it from. This is at least the third time now that I’ve used a term found pretty regularly in the Bible and a number of Catholics have felt the need to put the term in quotes or avoid it in favor of something else. What’s up with that? Do you think they call it “formation” because that’s actually what they do, whereas they don’t do much discipleship?

Quite a few of my friends have gone through a similar training program. Except it’s non-Catholic, of course. It usually takes a year. You can do it in 9 months, but you’ll need to write some support letters to pull it off. It’s good practice, though- a lot of the people who go through it wind up planting churches somewhere in the 10-40 window for at least a couple of years afterwards.

That’s it? I might put that version of “discipling” in the same category as “evangelism by not talking to people about Jesus.” What exactly did this Protestant church put forward as their operational definition of “disciple?” For that matter, what’s yours? You can provide links if you like. I like links.
Let me put it this way: When you say you’re going to disciple someone, that has a particular meaning. If the actual situation is one where an old lady tells you her opinions on the Bible, it’s not very honest to call it discipling.

It seems like your old Protestant church did something that wasn’t discipleship but they called it that anyway. Now you’re part of a Catholic church where they do something that isn’t ever referred to as discipleship, which probably tends to be accurate. You seem to think it’s close enough that it’s worth talking about, though.

Yes, just because a person holds a certain position does not mean they will be above reproach. It does mean they should be, but it does not mean they will be. This includes priests. Some of them have quite the reputation among the young lads of the church. I won’t go into details either, but I will allude to glass houses and that will be all.

Me too. The guy discipling me got tons of training. At the end of the training program, there is an intense pass/fail practicum/exam-ish thing that he had to do well on in order to go plant churches in India. He doesn’t wear any funny costumes, but that doesn’t mean he put any less work in. I assume you’re using “authority” to refer to something that’s earned by hard work and dedication- which you or I could do, by the way.

The way you’re putting things in quotes here, it’s almost as if you’re attributing those statements to me. Or maybe you found it in the links I posted. Which link was it?

She passes down approved teaching on the traditions of the Catholic Church and tells you to follow them. This is a bit different from being a disciple of Jesus. I might do this a bit too much, but here’s yet another dictionary definition:

Disciple- someone who believes and helps to spread the doctrine of another.

Just so you know where I’m at right now, I currently am of the opinion that you are not getting discipled. If you want to check with your “Why Catholic?” instructor, just ask her an open-ended question about it. Tell her to give you a bunch of words that describe what she’s doing when she talks to you guys, then ask her to put a bunch of labels on her role in the process. Also ask what kinds of words she would use to describe the people going through the program, especially once they’ve done a good job of putting all the instruction into practice. See if the word “disciple” comes up in any form. Do you think it will? I’m going to suggest it won’t, because that’s not the function or purpose of the class- stated or otherwise. I’ll also say it’s good that the stated purpose matches the functional reality, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with being involved in something that doesn’t directly pertain to discipleship. It doesn’t make it bad. It just happens to be “not discipleship.” There’s tons of good things that are “not discipleship.”

I don’t know if you’ll be willing to agree to any of that, but in the event that you are, I’m curious to know if you’d be interested in pursuing discipleship- starting with the extremely basic definition of what a disciple is. A disciple of Jesus is one who believes and helps to spread the doctrine of Jesus. Starting from that basic foundation, is this something you would want to do? Why or why not?

Like I said, I like links. So here’s another one. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/disciple

A person who learns from another, especially one who then teaches others. You? A disciple? Can you imagine? Is it really OK to do that? (I say yes).

mmmcounts, how old are you?

How long have you been a Christian?

I’m 51 (52 in a week). I asked Jesus into my heart when I was seven. I’ve never fallen away from the faith, mainly because God has been faithful to hold onto me.

Do you recognize the name “Steve Douglass?” When I was growing up, this guy was the one behind a lot of the discipling ministries in my church. You like links–here’s a link to Steve Douglass: lighthousereport.com/SBDbio.htm

Would you agree that Mr. Douglass and the organization that he’s president of know what they’re doing when it comes to discipleship?

 

[Cat]

Just gonna point out how the term “disciple” is used in the Bible quite a bit, and that’s where I got it from. This is at least the third time now that I’ve used a term found pretty regularly in the Bible and a number of Catholics have felt the need to put the term in quotes or avoid it in favor of something else. What’s up with that? Do you think they call it “formation” because that’s actually what they do, whereas they don’t do much discipleship?

No, that’s not why they call it “formation.”

Formation is a very Biblical word. Galatians 4: 19 says, “My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you…” (boldface mine)

That’s it? I might put that version of “discipling” in the same category as “evangelism by not talking to people about Jesus.” What exactly did this Protestant church put forward as their operational definition of “disciple?” For that matter, what’s yours? You can provide links if you like. I like links.
Let me put it this way: When you say you’re going to disciple someone, that has a particular meaning. If the actual situation is one where an old lady tells you her opinions on the Bible, it’s not very honest to call it discipling.

My definition of a disciple is the Biblical definition–someone who follows Jesus.

As for "an old lady telling her opinions on the Bible, HERE’S what the Bible has to say about older women teaching (or discipling) younger women–Titus 2: 3-4 say, “Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, **teaching what is good, that they may encourage the young women **to love their husband, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored.” (boldface mine)

It seems like your old Protestant church did something that wasn’t discipleship but they called it that anyway. Now you’re part of a Catholic church where they do something that isn’t ever referred to as discipleship, which probably tends to be accurate. You seem to think it’s close enough that it’s worth talking about, though.

The Bible says, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.”

Do you believe those verses? I do, and I always have. I asked God to give me wisdom about which church I should join, and He did so.

Yes, just because a person holds a certain position does not mean they will be above reproach. It does mean they should be, but it does not mean they will be. This includes priests. Some of them have quite the reputation among the young lads of the church. I won’t go into details either, but I will allude to glass houses and that will be all.

And I won’t allude to glass houses in non-Catholic Christian neighborhoods, either. There are plenty of them. The Bible says in John 8:7 He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone…"

The way you’re putting things in quotes here, it’s almost as if you’re attributing those statements to me. Or maybe you found it in the links I posted. Which link was it?

I apologize for using a writing style, namely use of quotes, that is confusing. No, I am not attributing any statements to you.

She passes down approved teaching on the traditions of the Catholic Church and tells you to follow them. This is a bit different from being a disciple of Jesus. I might do this a bit too much, but here’s yet another dictionary definition:

Disciple- someone who believes and helps to spread the doctrine of another.

Just so you know where I’m at right now, I currently am of the opinion that you are not getting discipled.

I don’t know if you’ll be willing to agree to any of that, but in the event that you are, I’m curious to know if you’d be interested in pursuing discipleship- starting with the extremely basic definition of what a disciple is. A disciple of Jesus is one who believes and helps to spread the doctrine of Jesus. Starting from that basic foundation, is this something you would want to do? Why or why not?

No.

Why not? First of all, I was discipled (the way you describe discipleship) by the best using the best curricula back when I was a Protestant. Secondly, because I am currently in the process of being “discipled” or “formed” or whatever word you want to call it by various people in my Church who have the authority from Christ to disciple me. Finally, I believe my ultimate “discipleship” is through the personal relationship that I have with Jesus Christ–I follow Him, not a man or woman, and He teaches me and makes me like Him.

Like I said, I like links. So here’s another one. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/disciple

A person who learns from another, especially one who then teaches others. You? A disciple? Can you imagine? Is it really OK to do that? (I say yes).

I appreciate your interest.

 

[EasterJoy]

There’s four kinds of soil. Only one of them is the good kind, and that’s the one that “yields 30, 60, and 100 fold.” If you’re yielding nothing, it doesn’t mean you missed out on a spiritual gift. It means you’re not being good soil. Thorns and rocks are the only other two options I can suggest. Jesus tells his disciples what kinds of things they correspond to in life. You figure it out.

It may be true that most lay Catholics do not resemble good soil. I’m pretty certain that the “most” qualifier allows me to say it’s actually a clear and present reality. That doesn’t mean it’s a good one. The general message here is this: Take a look and ask yourself if you could be described as good soil. If not, don’t be convinced that this is OK. Most of your fellow Catholics will tell you it’s OK, but that might not be a good thing. I know you have this general rule about ignoring Protestants, and especially so when most Catholics say something a bit different. See if you can make an exception here, though.

That’s not evangelism. This is evangelism:

Zealous preaching and advocacy of the gospel.

Evangelism is the Christian practice of proselytisation. The intention of most evangelism is to effect eternal salvation to those who do not follow the Christian God; others believe it is to inform others about the Kingdom of God.

Sharing news of something in order to convince someone to join or otherwise accept it.

evangelist - a preacher of the Christian gospel.

And here’s one pretty interesting and slightly related factoid-
A technical or technology evangelist is a person who attempts to build a critical mass of support for a given technology in order to establish it as a technical standard in a market that is subject to network effects.
If a computer guy were to use a given technology within his own home in an exemplary manner and hope that a few people would notice and ask him about it, do you think he would succeed in building a critical mass of support for that technology? Keep in mind that he operates in an environment where his competitors (unlike him) are zealously advocating a similar product, though it lacks a few of the components that he cares the most about. Is such a person really even trying? In both the process and its effects, is it at all fair to equate these two marketing strategies?

Were you thinking about Protestants and Catholics when you read the bit about competitors with similar products? You shouldn’t have been. Think instead about how a Muslim behaves when adhering to Islam. Lots of prayer, modesty is encouraged, giving to the needy happens…it’s pretty hardcore, at least when you follow all of it. If you and the Muslim are both obedient to the actions asked of you by your religion except where you differ on evangelism, who do you think is going to gain the next convert? I submit that the one who doesn’t talk to any potential converts will not yield much. Then the opportunity’s gone.

Thanks, me too.

You seem to imply that any Catholic who isn’t actively evangelizing is not bearing fruit. This is simply not true, and I don’t understand how someone with a correct understanding of Scriptures could come away with that impression.

I think you are confused. Does everyone at Microsoft work in marketting? Tech support? No. Each one has their role, and each one fulfills that role in a way that supports the others.

“Are all apostles? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles or have the gift of healing? Do all speak in tongues, all have the gift of interpretation of tongues? Set your hearts on the greater gifts…There are in the end three things that last: faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love.” 1 Cor. 12:29-31,13:13

It is incorrect, therefore, to imply that a person who has not been given the charism of apostleship is not a fruitful disciple. The Lord told us that others would know us by how we love one another. That is the unfailing mark of a disciple of the Lord, not evangelism.

So let us consider your contention, “Jesus tells his disciples what kinds of things they correspond to in life. You figure it out.”

“None of those who cry out, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. When that day comes, many will plead with me, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? Have we not exorcised demons by its power? Did we not do many miracles in your name as well?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Our of my sight, you evildoers!” Matt. 7: 22-23

I think you must be well-acquainted with Matt. 25:31-46, too, Jesus’ depiction of the Last Judgement: “…for I was hungry and you gave me food, thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, I was ill and you comforted me, in prison and you came to visit me…as often as you did it for one of my least brothers, you did it for me.”

This is not to say we do not have a duty to instruct the ignorant, that we are not commanded to go forth and make disciples. It is to say that not all have been called to be teachers and prophets, while every one does have a particular call to love. The call to love, while it will always include patience, kindness, and the other marks that Paul talked about, does not have to look or sound the same for everyone.

 

[mmmcounts]

You seem to imply that any Catholic who isn’t actively evangelizing is not bearing fruit. This is simply not true, and I don’t understand how someone with a correct understanding of Scriptures could come away with that impression.

Every Christian (including Catholics) is called to use the gifts that they have. Some people aren’t cut out for going cross-cultural and reaching the unreached. Some people aren’t that good at administration. But everyone has something, and the use of these gifts always involves impacting someone else. The use of gifts in the process of bearing fruit always involves you doing something for someone else. If your idea of bearing fruit revolves entirely around others doing stuff for you, it’s quite nice of you to give others the opportunity to exercise their gifts. But you’re not exercising yours.

That’s the fundamental difference between formation and discipleship. Formation is a process by which a lump of clay sits there and gets worked on. Discipleship is more dynamic and active. You’re not just a lump of clay. You also do stuff. You are still impacted by others, but there’s also an active role on your part. At first, I figured discipleship happened at some level in Catholic churches. Now I’m not so sure. My first clue was when several people were reluctant to call their activities by that name, so it makes me think maybe they actually aren’t doing discipleship.

I think you are confused. Does everyone at Microsoft work in marketting? Tech support? No. Each one has their role, and each one fulfills that role in a way that supports the others.

Everyone at Microsoft does work at Microsoft, though. The way it is with too many people in both Protestant and Catholic churches- though it’s more prevalent in Catholic churches- people are acting more like consumers than employees. They show up. They consume what the church offers. But they aren’t contributing anything. Just consuming.

It is incorrect, therefore, to imply that a person who has not been given the charism of apostleship is not a fruitful disciple. The Lord told us that others would know us by how we love one another. That is the unfailing mark of a disciple of the Lord, not evangelism.

Not every Christian has the gift of evangelism. But every Christian should desire it. If every Christian desired to be an evangelist and at least tried it out to see if God gifted them that way, I suspect that well over half of them would find that God wants them to use their time and energy in that way at least part of the time. As it is, less than 5% of practicing Christians even bother to find out. There is a huge amount of untapped potential for God to do some freaking sweet things in this world- I mean, like 10 times what we see now- but there’s also a huge amount of “Well, maybe I could do that and maybe not, I don’t really care- let someone else do it.” That’s what I’m hearing from you- Maybe I could, but I won’t bother to find out- it’s someone else’s job.

Do you have a job here, or are you just a consumer?

Oh, one more thing: According to a study done by Campus Crusade…imagine, for a moment, a congregation of 200 people who are just like most Catholics- live by example, then hope people notice and walk through the door. Once that happens, you can talk to them on your terms. According to the estimates of this study, such a group of people will, on average, see one unsaved person get saved each year. That’s it. If that’s your plan, this gives you a ballpark idea of how effective it is. It’s not. It’s an epic fail. You lose.

Compare this to what happens when a group of just 5 people share the Gospel (and follow up with discipleship) fairly regularly- it doesn’t have to be every day. This is the kind of group that sees multiplication instead of addition, provided that they train the new people to do the same stuff. Of course, if they don’t…do you see how that could lead to people following people instead of God?

This is not to say we do not have a duty to instruct the ignorant, that we are not commanded to go forth and make disciples. It is to say that not all have been called to be teachers and prophets, while every one does have a particular call to love.

Love is a verb, my friend. And in this context, it involves using at least (though generally more than) one of your spiritual gifts. Which ones are you using? Have you explored this at all?

It is good to point out how it must always be done in love, though.

The call to love, while it will always include patience, kindness, and the other marks that Paul talked about, does not have to look or sound the same for everyone.

It doesn’t. But it does always involve something generated by you that acts upon another person. In discipleship, this is done relationally and causes one or both of the people involved to live in greater obedience to God and in better fellowship with Him. (It’s not a perfect definition, but that’s the general sense of it). The other essential part, though, is the reproductive factor. If a person is merely a consumer and does not operate on the “giving” side of things in any capacity, it’s quite understandable for such a person to avoid calling it “discipleship” and call it “formation” instead. That’s generally because they aren’t actually doing discipleship. So they don’t call it that. That’s your first clue.

 

[Cat]

mmmcounts, do you actually attend a Catholic church on a regular basis?

Some of the things you are saying are ridiculous. Catholics DO get very involved in their parishes and seek to use their spiritual gifts and they know what the term “spiritual gifts” means (evangelism, teaching, helps, etc.). I attend an Italian parish that reminds me of the Conference Baptist church that I grew up in–everyone works hard to keep the Church going strong.

And your assertation that “formation” isn’t really discipleship is semantic nonsense. As I have pointed out, I was raised in a church where the discipling was done using Campus Crusade for Christ materials, by people who had been “discipled” in Campus Crusade for Christ or were on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ, including the current president of Campus Crusade for Christ, Steve Douglass and his wife. I KNOW what you talking about when you use the term “discipling,” and yes, it’s done in the Catholic Church. Got it?

You can fool cradle Catholics into thinking that you are offering them something that they don’t already have, but brother, you can’t fool ME. I was raised on what you’re talking about.

And I would suggest that just as Campus Crusade for Christ staff members live among the people that they are evangelizing, that you do the same–start attending Catholic Mass on a regular basis, and get involved with various Catholic ministries (as much as you are allowed to, if you are not a practicing Catholic). Get to know personally those who you are evangelizing. Don’t rely on books, videos, and few chance relationships over the years. Immerse yourself in Catholic “culture” if this is, indeed, your mission field.

 

[pipper]

mmmcounts, do you actually attend a Catholic church on a regular basis?

Some of the things you are saying are ridiculous. Catholics DO get very involved in their parishes and seek to use their spiritual gifts and they know what the term “spiritual gifts” means (evangelism, teaching, helps, etc.). I attend an Italian parish that reminds me of the Conference Baptist church that I grew up in–everyone works hard to keep the Church going strong.

And your assertation that “formation” isn’t really discipleship is semantic nonsense. As I have pointed out, I was raised in a church where the discipling was done using Campus Crusade for Christ materials, by people who had been “discipled” in Campus Crusade for Christ or were on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ, including the current president of Campus Crusade for Christ, Steve Douglass and his wife. I KNOW what you talking about when you use the term “discipling,” and yes, it’s done in the Catholic Church. Got it?

You can fool cradle Catholics into thinking that you are offering them something that they don’t already have, but brother, you can’t fool ME. I was raised on what you’re talking about.

And I would suggest that just as Campus Crusade for Christ staff members live among the people that they are evangelizing, that you do the same–start attending Catholic Mass on a regular basis, and get involved with various Catholic ministries (as much as you are allowed to, if you are not a practicing Catholic). Get to know personally those who you are evangelizing. Don’t rely on books, videos, and few chance relationships over the years. Immerse yourself in Catholic “culture” if this is, indeed, your mission field.

Cat, mmmcounts is not a Catholic at all, her posts, profile identify her as a Protestant. For all I know she could be in the “International church of Christ, Boston movement” cult.

But the main reason I am writting is can you tell me what the the Baptist Conference is. I never heard of it, and I used to live in Central Illinois (Springfield)