What does this mean to you?

[clem456]

Jesus to St Faustina. Book 2

…Others distrust My goodness and have no desire to experience that sweet intimacy in their own hearts, but go in search of Me, off in the distance, and do not find Me. This distrust of My goodness hurts Me very much. If My death has not convinced you of My love, what will? Often a soul wounds Me mortally, and then no one can comfort Me. They use My graces to offend Me. There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell. The loss of these souls plunges Me into deadly sorrow. God though I am, I cannot help such a soul because it scorns Me; having a free will, it can spurn Me or love Me. You, who are the dispenser of My mercy, tell all the world about My goodness, and thus you will comfort My Heart. It will tell you when you converse with Me in the depths of your heart. Here, no one can disturb My actions. Here, I rest as in a garden enclosed.
…
My daughter, tell the whole world about My inconceivable mercy. I desire that the Feast of Mercy be a refuge and shelter for all souls, and especially for poor sinners. On that day the very depths of My tender mercy are open. I pour out a whole ocean of graces upon those souls who approach the fount of My mercy. The soul that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion shall obtain complete forgiveness of sins and punishment. On that day are open all the divine floodgates through which graces flow. Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity. Everything that exists has come forth from the very depths of My most tender mercy. Every soul in its relation to Me will contemplate my love and mercy throughout eternity. The Feast of Mercy emerged from My very depths of tenderness. It is My desire that it be solemnly celebrated on the first Sunday after Easter. Mankind will not have peace until it turns to the Fount of My Mercy.
…
** I perform works of mercy in every soul. The greater the sinner, the greater the right he has to My mercy. My mercy is confirmed in every work of My hands. He who trusts in My mercy will not perish, for all his affairs are Mine, and his enemies will be shattered at the base of My footstool.**

Praise Jesus Christ our awesome God.

 

[glendab]

Okie dokie Clem. Now I’m the devil of a woman. Oh dear. Well thanks for the reply.

I must respectfully but radically disagree with you here…
A case can be made that the unconditional love of God is THE core message in proclaiming the Gospel (good news) and should be shouted from the rooftops…Speaking about the good news without proclaiming God’s unconditional love is simply not speaking the truth. This is the lie that the deceiver whispers to all people. "Be perfect or God will not love you!.. If satisfying rules alone, like the ten commandments, are the conditions for God’s love, then why did Jesus take on our flesh and die!!! God gave us the commandments to follow…No one can satisfy conditions for God’s love, Jesus is the one and only satisfier of all conditions. There is no other. Anything else is a lie…This is the fundamental message of our faith… to say that his cross does not unconditionally cover our fallen human nature. He is who he is, just like “I Am Who Am”. He is not who he is because of who we are. He is God, we are not. The only question is will we kneel at the cross and acknowledge him…or will we doubt his love…If we can’t state this basic truth with confidence and conviction we fail our responsibilities as Christians. (but God still loves us)

Was it “the deceiver” who said “be perfect as I am perfect” or “be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect?” Cut me a break!

Yes Jesus had to take on our flesh and die because of the enormity of sin. Sin is such that only God can repair the damage done by it. You are correct in stating there are core beliefs in our faith such as those contained in both the Creeds. But the addition of the word “unconditional” isn’t one of them. You say the you think the Cross unconditionally covers the fallen human nature but it doesn’t.

I point to the fact that three years before God died upon the Cross, St. John the Baptist was preaching repentance FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS! That is a condition. He was Baptizing for the forgiveness of sins as those who were being baptized repented. They weren’t asked to just step up and get wet. They had to repent first! If the waters alone could remove the sins then there would be no need for repentance. Thus the Baptists’ message included conditions. Prepare the way of the Lord, make straight His paths, etc. God died for you. But to receive His forgiveness you must ask. It isn’t unconditional love that saves you but the Blood of the Lamb who was slain in your stead.

I still see presumption in your arguments. The idea of Him NOT forgiving because He loves is not computing in your mind because it seems that way to you. Those are your conditions on God and His Mercy: He **must be merciful because He loves **and did send His Son to pay the price for sin ergo He is bound to love “unconditionally.” Your conditions say God must forgive because He loves and if He stopped loving someone because of their sins, He’d no longer be God! Silliness.

Oh well. I’m trying to understand your point of view but I cannot. I love God - He loves me. But I refuse to presume on God’s mercy.

Glenda

 

[clem456]

Was it “the deceiver” who said “be perfect as I am perfect” or “be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect?” Cut me a break!

Glenda

Yes, thanks for the Scripture quote. Here is Mt 5:48 in context

Love of Enemies.*
43
b “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’c
44
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45
that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. **
46
For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
47
And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?
48
So be perfect,* just as your heavenly Father is perfect.d

How is your heavenly Father perfect? Note that man’s perfection is not directed to his own operation, but to who God is, which is unconditional love, as expressed by him and modeled by him. We can love enemies because God loves us unconditionally first. The whole passage is expressly about unconditional love. So thanks for interjecting that passage.

What is the bond of perfection?
This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, part 1, Section 1.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c1.htm

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION ONE
“I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”
…
CHAPTER ONE
MAN’S CAPACITY FOR GOD

I. THE DESIRE FOR GOD

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because **man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases **to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1

29 But this “intimate and vital bond of man to God” (GS 19 § 1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man.3 Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call.4

30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 **Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases **to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, “an upright heart”, as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.

Notice the demand of effort is on man, not God, because God’s love is unmovable.

But I refuse to presume on God’s mercy.

Right. Presumption is not a good thing.

 

[mardukm]

Dear sister Glenda,

I haven’t read through the thread, but in case no one else has given this answer:

Doctrinally speaking, there are two ways it can be said that God loves us unconditionally:
(1) In initial justification, God accepts us unconditionally. For nothing we have previously done, God will accept us as His children in the Sacrament of Baptism.

(2) In the Sacrament of Forgiveness, God will ALWAYS accept us back when we ask for forgiveness, no matter what we have done to offend him.

Blessings,
Marduk

Hello everyone. I am a Catholic and I’m trying to understand the position of two friends of mine on a particular subject: the love of God for us. I’m told this is “unconditional.” I’ve obviously misunderstood what this means to each of them and need some clarification of the differing ways in which this phrase gets explained. So here’s the question: what does the phrase “unconditional love of God” mean to you and how do you apply that to your faith walk?

 

[clem456]

Pope Benedict XVI
Deus Caritas Est
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

Anyone who wishes to give love must also receive love as a gift. Certainly, as the Lord tells us, one can become a source from which rivers of living water flow (cf. Jn 7:37-38). Yet to become such a source, one must constantly drink anew from the original source, **which is Jesus Christ, from whose pierced heart flows the love of God (cf. Jn 19:34).
…
9. First, the world of the Bible presents us with a new image of God. In surrounding cultures, the image of God and of the gods ultimately remained unclear and contradictory. In the development of biblical faith, however, the content of the prayer fundamental to Israel, the Shema, became increasingly clear and unequivocal: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord” (Dt 6:4). There is only one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, who is thus the God of all. Two facts are significant about this statement: all other gods are not God, and the universe in which we live has its source in God and was created by him. Certainly, the notion of creation is found elsewhere, yet only here does it become absolutely clear that it is not one god among many, but the one true God himself who is the source of all that exists; the whole world comes into existence by the power of his creative Word. Consequently, his creation is dear to him, for it was willed by him and “made” by him. The second important element now emerges: this God loves man.
…
The history of the love-relationship between God and Israel consists, at the deepest level, in the fact that he gives her the Torah, thereby opening Israel’s eyes to man’s true nature and showing her the path leading to true humanism. It consists in the fact that man, through a life of fidelity to the one God, comes to experience himself as loved by God,
…
10. We have seen that God’s eros for man is also totally agape. This is not only because it is bestowed in a completely gratuitous manner, without any previous merit, but also because it is love which forgives. Hosea above all shows us that this agape dimension of God’s love for man goes far beyond the aspect of gratuity. Israel has committed “adultery” and has broken the covenant; God should judge and repudiate her. It is precisely at this point that God is revealed to be God and not man: “How can I give you up, O Ephraim! How can I hand you over, O Israel! … My heart recoils within me, my compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my fierce anger, I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not man**, the Holy One in your midst” (Hos 11:8-9). God’s passionate love for his people—for humanity—is at the same time a forgiving love. It is so great that it turns God against himself, his love against his justice. Here Christians can see a dim prefigurement of the mystery of the Cross: so great is God’s love for man that by becoming man he follows him even into death, and so reconciles justice and love.

 

[glendab]

Oh thank you Marduk! You’ve added something to this discussion.

Dear sister Glenda,

I haven’t read through the thread, but in case no one else has given this answer:

Doctrinally speaking, there are two ways it can be said that God loves us unconditionally:
(1) In initial justification, God accepts us unconditionally. For nothing we have previously done, God will accept us as His children in the Sacrament of Baptism.

(2) In the Sacrament of Forgiveness, God will ALWAYS accept us back when we ask for forgiveness, no matter what we have done to offend him.

Blessings,
Marduk

But in the act of Confessing we are living under conditions and the effects of the Sacrament are actuated conditionally upon our sorrow for sins and when we are Baptized, at least as adults, we are asked to make promises, also expressed as accepting conditions that are extant for us already.

As for the Protestant theology of an “unconditional love of God,” I think this is one of the ways in which a Protestant can say the exact same thing as we say, but it means something completely different. The example that comes to mind is the Communion of the Saints. For some of them that is simply talking to each other at their churches on Sunday because they are the Saints of today! If you asked them if they believed in the Communion of the saints, they’d answer vociferously “Yes!” but it has little to do with what the Church believes and teaches about Communion of the Saints with us.

Thank you again for responding. It is a deeper subject than it looks I think, but then who can fathom the Sacred Heart of Jesus and make sense?

Glenda

 

[glendab]

P.S. Again Marduk, be reminded that some sins are RESERVED to the Holy See, etc. therefore they cannot simply be Confessed in the Confessional. And the forgiveness of them is bound up with this fact. Conditions apply. :bigyikes:

Glenda

 

[Nita]

I still don’t believe God loves me without conditions and that the giving of the Law is a loving thing and that my keeping them is a loving response to God’s love of me. In this regard I cannot see God loving me personally without conditions. I cannot find Scripture that says specifically God loves unconditionally. That word, unconditional, is an addition and I think it is wishful thinking. I cringe when I here the term and want to shout “There are conditions! They’re the Ten Commandments.” etc,

Salvation is conditional (Ten Commandments, etc.), but God’s love is not. The problem arises because of our tendency to equate eternal salvation with God’s love. But they are not the same thing.

To understand what is meant by God’s unconditional love, it is absolutely crucial to understand what “love” means. Love is desiring and doing what is for the good of a person, especially for their eternal good/welfare. God NEVER stops desiring and doing what is for our good - even when we are sinning. He continually works for and desires (loves) all sinners to repent and convert so they can be saved.

 

[Nita]

Originally Posted by** glendab **
… I **cringe when I here the term **and want to shout “There are conditions! They’re the Ten Commandments.” etc,

I know what you mean because I cringe also. And the reason is those using the term (priest in a sermon; religious speakers/teachers, etc.) usually don’t explain what it means. They don’t define love; they don’t explain that God’s “unconditional love” does not mean that He is going to let them into heaven regardless of what they do.
Many times I’ve heard how “God loves us unconditionally even in our sin” and the instruction/information stops there without explaining that it doesn’t remove the necessity of repentance of sin in order to be saved. It leaves so many, especially youth I think, believing it really doesn’t matter if they break the Commandments, etc.

 

[clem456]

I know what you mean because I cringe also. And the reason is those using the term (priest in a sermon; religious speakers/teachers, etc.) usually don’t explain what it means. They don’t define love; they don’t explain that God’s “unconditional love” does not mean that He is going to let them into heaven regardless of what they do.
Many times I’ve heard how “God loves us unconditionally even in our sin” and the instruction/information stops there without explaining that it doesn’t remove the necessity of repentance of sin in order to be saved. It leaves so many, especially youth I think, believing it really doesn’t matter if they break the Commandments, etc.

This is Pope Francis’ exhortation to joyfully live and proclaim the truth of the Gospel.
vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html#The_joy_of_the_gospel

1. I invite all Christians, everywhere, at this very moment, to a renewed personal encounter with Jesus Christ, or at least an openness to letting him encounter them; I ask all of you to do this unfailingly each day. No one should think that this invitation is not meant for him or her, since** “no one is excluded from the joy brought by the Lord”.**[1] The Lord does not disappoint those who take this risk; whenever we take a step towards Jesus, we come to realize that he is already there, waiting for us with open arms. Now is the time to say to Jesus: “Lord, I have let myself be deceived; in a thousand ways I have shunned your love, yet here I am once more, to renew my covenant with you. I need you. Save me once again, Lord, take me once more into your redeeming embrace”. How good it feels to come back to him whenever we are lost! Let me say this once more: God never tires of forgiving us; we are the ones who tire of seeking his mercy. Christ, who told us to forgive one another “seventy times seven” (Mt 18:22) has given us his example: he has forgiven us seventy times seven. Time and time again he bears us on his shoulders. No one can strip us of the dignity bestowed upon us by this boundless and unfailing love. With a tenderness which never disappoints, but is always capable of restoring our joy, he makes it possible for us to lift up our heads and to start anew. Let us not flee from the resurrection of Jesus, let us never give up, come what will. May nothing inspire more than his life, which impels us onwards!

Proclaiming the unconditional love of God is nothing to be cringed at, or reduced to conditions. It should be boldly proclaimed. It’s the primary truth, the first message, always. Why do we live in fear of proclaiming the truth? Do we not trust that God will take care of justice for those who presume on him? Why is God’s justice even any of our business?

Without this foundation the Gospel we proclaim is a house of cards. The Church has told us this over and over and over. Without recognizing God’s unconditional love as the only context and foundation of all morality, ten commandments included, all of life is cheapened and made subject to “conditions”. This is a hard truth to see but JP2 expresses it simply:
John Paul 2
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html

In a special way, believers in Christ must defend and promote this right (to life), aware as they are of the wonderful truth recalled by the Second Vatican Council: “By his incarnation the Son of God has united himself in some fashion with every human being”.2 This saving event reveals to humanity not only the boundless love of God who “so loved the world that he gave his only Son” (Jn 3:16), but also the incomparable value of every human person.

Every human being has value without conditions only because God loves them without condition.
We cannot expect those we meet to repent, or change, or come to Jesus, if we ourselves cringe at this fundamental truth of the Gospel.

 

[clem456]

And again from Pope Francis, addressing this topic with a sharpened sword:

1. There are Christians whose lives seem like Lent without Easter. I realize of course that joy is not expressed the same way at all times in life, especially at moments of great difficulty. Joy adapts and changes, but it always endures, even as a flicker of light born of our personal certainty that, when everything is said and done, we are infinitely loved. I understand the grief of people who have to endure great suffering, yet slowly but surely we all have to let the joy of faith slowly revive as a quiet yet firm trust, even amid the greatest distress: “My soul is bereft of peace; I have forgotten what happiness is… But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope: the steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness… It is good that one should wait quietly for the salvation of the Lord” (Lam 3:17, 21-23, 26).

1. Sometimes we are tempted to find excuses and complain, acting as if we could only be happy if a thousand conditions were met. To some extent this is because our “technological society has succeeded in multiplying occasions of pleasure, yet has found it very difficult to engender joy”.[2] I can say that the most beautiful and natural expressions of joy which I have seen in my life were in poor people who had little to hold on to. I also think of the real joy shown by others who, even amid pressing professional obligations, were able to preserve, in detachment and simplicity, a heart full of faith. In their own way, all these instances of joy flow from the infinite love of God, who has revealed himself to us in Jesus Christ. I never tire of repeating those words of Benedict XVI which take us to the very heart of the Gospel: “Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction”.[3]

1. Thanks solely to this encounter – or renewed encounter – with God’s love, which blossoms into an enriching friendship, we are liberated from our narrowness and self-absorption. We become fully human when we become more than human, when we let God bring us beyond ourselves in order to attain the fullest truth of our being. Here we find the source and inspiration of all our efforts at evangelization. For if we have received the love which restores meaning to our lives, how can we fail to share that love with others?

We have no excuses to shrink from proclaiming God’s love.

 

[glendab]

Oh Clem,

You cannot put the word “unconditional” in the Holy Father’s mouth. Really. Nice try though. Many do place words in his mouth that aren’t there. Boundless, merciful, steadfast, faithful…etc. But you won’t find him using the term “unconditional” in the sense that the Protestants use it. That is why I refuse to use it. We’ve all heard the implications of that terminology. OSAS is its origin. Too many Protestants agree with that. Why use it? If you mean merciful love of God say that. If you mean bountiful love of God say that! If you mean magnanimous love of God, say that. If you mean sacrificial love of God say that. Why borrow trouble?

Nope still not convinced of God’s “unconditional” love for me as others mean it. God loves me deeply; I love Him. I let Him love me. it feels wonderful and joyous. We do have a personal relationship. There is no reason for me to use the term and since I’m not a convert from Protestantism, I won’t have to shed the perpetual usage of it in my speech.

I look forward to Heaven where I will be able to love as I am loved, perfectly. In the mean time I will continue to keep the Law and all the conditions being Christian imposes on me lovingly. The perfect fulfillment of my Baptismal promises is God’s will for me.

Glenda

 

[Nita]

This is Pope Francis’ exhortation to joyfully live and proclaim the truth of the Gospel.
vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html#The_joy_of_the_gospel

Beautiful words by our Pope. He is telling us of God’s loving mercy and forgiveness IF/WHEN we seek it. (eg. the line of Pope Francis that you enlarged and bolded: “God never tires of forgiving us; we are the ones who tire of seeking his mercy.”

If you read my Post #28, then you know how much I uphold the teaching of God’s unconditional love. My objection is when it is not explained properly; when it is left wide open to being interpreted that God would never send anyone to hell because of this love He has for us…

Proclaiming the unconditional love of God is nothing to be cringed at, or reduced to conditions. It should be boldly proclaimed.

I don’t “cringe” at proclaiming it; I just cringe when it isn’t presented and explained properly, and is left wide open to misinterpretation – as it so often has been/is at the parish level. I don’t know if I have ever heard a sermon where a priest, when he has said “God loves us unconditionally even when we are sinners” (typical statement) in his sermon, went on to explain to the congregation that what it meant God always desires to forgive us ***IF ***we repent and seek His mercy.

God “loves” even those in hell!

 

[clem456]

vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html

1. All revealed truths derive from the same divine source and are to be believed with the same faith, yet some of them are more important for giving direct expression to the heart of the Gospel. In this basic core, what shines forth is the beauty of the saving love of God made manifest in Jesus Christ who died and rose from the dead. In this sense, the Second Vatican Council explained, “in Catholic doctrine there exists an order or a ‘hierarchy’ of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith”.[38] This holds true as much for the dogmas of faith as for the whole corpus of the Church’s teaching, including her moral teaching.

1. Saint Thomas Aquinas taught that the Church’s moral teaching has its own “hierarchy”, in the virtues and in the acts which proceed from them.[39] What counts above all else is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6). Works of love directed to one’s neighbour are the most perfect external manifestation of the interior grace of the Spirit: “The foundation of the New Law is in the grace of the Holy Spirit, who is manifested in the faith which works through love”.[40] Thomas thus explains that, as far as external works are concerned, mercy is the greatest of all the virtues: “In itself mercy is the greatest of the virtues, since all the others revolve around it and, more than this, it makes up for their deficiencies. This is particular to the superior virtue, and as such it is proper to God to have mercy, through which his omnipotence is manifested to the greatest degree”.[41]

The integrity of the Gospel message must not be deformed. What is more, each truth is better understood when related to the harmonious totality of the Christian message; in this context all of the truths are important and illumine one another. When preaching is faithful to the Gospel, the centrality of certain truths is evident and it becomes clear that Christian morality is not a form of stoicism, or self-denial, or merely a practical philosophy or a catalogue of sins and faults. Before all else, the Gospel invites us to respond to the God of love who saves us, to see God in others and to go forth from ourselves to seek the good of others. **Under no circumstance **can this invitation be obscured! All of the virtues are at the service of this response of love. If this invitation does not radiate forcefully and attractively, the edifice of the Church’s moral teaching risks becoming a house of cards, and this is our greatest risk. It would mean that it is not the Gospel which is being preached, but certain doctrinal or moral points based on specific ideological options. The message will run the risk of losing its freshness and will cease to have “the fragrance of the Gospel”.