What does Traditional Catholicism say about active participation in Protestant service?

[daughteroftruth]

Lets face facts people. A spade is a spade. You can call a spade a mechancial device that may or may not be used for the relocation of defecation or other wastes, and/or indeed may or may not be used to lean on by the less active of municipal council employees. But its still a spade, isn’t it?

You mean I can’t *believe *the spade into a lawnmower?!

 

[jimcav]

A better approach would be to keep the four scenaria above in mind when you are dealing with Protestants. No matter how strong and assured they LOOK, you don’t know what’s in their hearts. It would be better to err on the side of kindness and charity, and to gently woo them into the Catholic Church rather than battering them with “the TRUTH” and then wondering why don’t wake up and listen. People who have been beaten up don’t generally get up, and sometimes, they die.

Very good and thoughful posts Cat!

You obviously know of what you speak. I also think that many Protesatnts believe in there hearts that we are the heretics, not them. They would be stunned to even hear that a Catholic could ever believe that they are heretics! Most, if not all Protestants, know nothing of Church or Christian history before the reformation, because to know Church history, a Protestant would cease being a Protestant.

I to believe you can get more with honey than with vinegar…

I hope the OP of this thread returns and let’s us know what he said to his friend. Either way, it should spark another good debate!

 

[Shin]

I want to respond more fully (but I shall think about this first) and I embrace some of what you have to say, you have made some very good points, and I understand. I think however that you truly have some healing to do in Christ, (do not we all? I too!) and that without this you will not be able to approach this subject with the proper interior balance.

Peace be with you I pray!

'A person who is not detached from worldly cares can neither love God truly nor hate the devil as he should, for such cares are both a burden and a veil.

St. Diadochos of Photiki

‘What was mine no longer belongs to me. I have given all to Jesus. Resolution: Energy to break my will even in the most insignificant things. Pause twice a day and make reparations for the time I have lost. Detachment from creatures and things. Watch over my emotions. Listen to Jesus who says to me so often: “My daughter, give me your heart. I want it entirely to myself.”’

St. Bernadette Soubirous

 

[Cat]

We’re required to learn the truth, not waste time studying false doctrine. Anything that contradicts the truth is a lie, simple enough. If we know the truth, we will easily recognize the lie. Protestants do not accept the Bible, they believe what they want to believe and use the Bible to justify whatever position they hold. No one on this planet has the time to learn their belief system because they are so divided it’s pathetic…to quote Luther “there are as many doctrines as there are heads.” Heretic is a word many find offensive, but Christ used rather strong language that the Pharisees - no doubt - found insulting. I myself wouldn’t refer to just any Protestant as a heretic…it was my understanding that the term applied to a Catholic who refused 1+ Church teachings… I would, however, say that they’re worshipping a false god, but that’s just my view of the situation.

Another good point. Catholics probably shouldn’t waste time studying false doctrine–they should be studying their own “true doctrine!”

But many of us grew up in and lived these “false doctrines” for decades. We don’t have to study them–they are ingrained into us and we know them well.

So when we speak, perhaps it would be wise for those of you who don’t know to listen to us.

And I maintain that calling evangelical Protestants “heretics” is generally not a wise strategy. They will find that quite offensive and it will drive them further away from the True Church of Christ. If that’s your goal–to drive them away–well, you go ahead with that approach. But if your goal is to be used by the Holy Spirit to lead them home to the beautiful Holy Mother Church, then you would be wise to listen to former evangelicals and try some of our strategies, and above all, to STOP accusing us of soft-soaping and slip-sliding.

And what’s up with these pictures of skulls? I know that the Carmelites (I think that’s the sect) carry skulls around as reminders of human mortality. One of the parishes that I play piano for has a striking image of St. Anthony of Padua laid out in death under the altar. I’m OK with that. What does it have to do with reaching out to evangelicals? Most of them don’t accept images of any kind, and some sects of evangelicals won’t even allow pictures of Jesus in their Sunday school and VBS curricula! Remember that when you are giving your evangelical friends tours of your church–IF they will even go into your church! Some evangelicals refuse to enter a Catholic church because they believe it is a home for demons.

Are you getting the idea that you can’t just yell, “HERETIC!” and stand out of the way while evangelical Protestants run sobbing back into the Church? Just the opposite will happen!

Always remember St. Paul and Mars Hill. He didn’t begin his famous sermon by accusing the pagans of being pagan! He praised all the things they were doing right, and THEN he cleverly led the discussion into the subject of the “Unknown God” and told his rapt audience that the Unknown God was Jesus Christ.

If being subtle and clever was good enough for St. Paul, isn’t it good enough for us?!

 

[daughteroftruth]

Another good point. Catholics probably shouldn’t waste time studying false doctrine–they should be studying their own “true doctrine!”

Speaking of wise approaches in convincing “the other,” love the sarcasm.

My point is that if we know the truth, we will recognize the lie. We won’t have to waste time studying their personal opinion because - knowing the truth - we will be able to counter most of what they throw out at us.

But many of us grew up in and lived these “false doctrines” for decades. We don’t have to study them–they are ingrained into us and we know them well.

No argument there.

So when we speak, perhaps it would be wise for those of you who don’t know to listen to us.

I never suggested we shove doctrine down another’s throat. We can’t counter their arguments or address their concerns if we don’t listen to what they have to say.

And I maintain that calling evangelical Protestants “heretics” is generally not a wise strategy. They will find that quite offensive and it will drive them further away from the True Church of Christ. If that’s your goal–to drive them away–well, you go ahead with that approach.

Did you not read my post, I did not support calling any non Catholic “heretic,” since a heretic is, essentially, a rebellious Catholic. Protestants are not inside the Church, so heretic doesn’t apply.

But if your goal is to be used by the Holy Spirit to lead them home to the beautiful Holy Mother Church, then you would be wise to listen to former evangelicals and try some of our strategies, and above all, to STOP accusing us of soft-soaping and slip-sliding.

Many people are too soft though. I know of a lot of Protestants who come to the Church, but who’s religious views do not change much because of a faulty understanding of what the Church teaches. Not everyone is guilty of this, but you can’t deny that it happens.

And what’s up with these pictures of skulls? I know that the Carmelites (I think that’s the sect) carry skulls around as reminders of human mortality. One of the parishes that I play piano for has a striking image of St. Anthony of Padua laid out in death under the altar. I’m OK with that. What does it have to do with reaching out to evangelicals? Most of them don’t accept images of any kind, and some sects of evangelicals won’t even allow pictures of Jesus in their Sunday school and VBS curricula! Remember that when you are giving your evangelical friends tours of your church–IF they will even go into your church! Some evangelicals refuse to enter a Catholic church because they believe it is a home for demons.

You suggest we rid the Church of everything they’ll find offensive? That’s being deceitful.

Are you getting the idea that you can’t just yell, “HERETIC!” and stand out of the way while evangelical Protestants run sobbing back into the Church? Just the opposite will happen!

That’s a bit of an exaggeration, don’t you think? Sounds more like a…stereotype…

Always remember St. Paul and Mars Hill. He didn’t begin his famous sermon by accusing the pagans of being pagan! He praised all the things they were doing right, and THEN he cleverly led the discussion into the subject of the “Unknown God” and told his rapt audience that the Unknown God was Jesus Christ.

While very good, that’s not the *only *method of evangelization that works.

If being subtle and clever was good enough for St. Paul, isn’t it good enough for us?!

It’s a very valuable approach, but don’t forget that he was addressing non Christians. The way we address rebellious Catholics (the actual heretics) needs to be straightforward as they are in greater danger of damnation and need to made very aware of that reality.

 

[Cat]

Speaking of wise approaches in convincing “the other,” love the sarcasm.
You didn’t support it, but others on this thread appear to support the idea.

Many people are too soft though. I know of a lot of Protestants who come to the Church, but who’s religious views do not change much because of a faulty understanding of what the Church teaches. Not everyone is guilty of this, but you can’t deny that it happens.

That’s interesting. I actually haven’t seen this. My husband is an RCIA helper (in charge of training the sponsors), so he comes into contact with a lot of the converts to the Church, and he hasn’t seen it. But I can certainly agree that those who are not well-catechized will be very mushy in their theology.

You suggest we rid the Church of everything they’ll find offensive? That’s being deceitful.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! Sorry, I was responding in the same message to another poster who sent posted a series of pictures in this thread with the message, “Cat, welcome to the dark side.” I don’t get this, but I think he’s just having fun with me, and that’s perfectly OK, and I’m glad that we can all be friends and joke around a little. I have to admit, the first time I ever saw St. Anthony in repose under the altar, I jumped ten feet!

That’s a bit of an exaggeration, don’t you think? Sounds more like a…stereotype…

Of course it’s an exaggeration. But some of the posts on this thread imply that Catholics believe we need to return to a time when Protestants were spurned as heretics and their places of worship shunned as dens of demons.

While very good, that’s not the *only *

method of evangelization that works.

I agree. Each Christian should rely upon the guidance of the Holy Spirit and use the gifts that the Holy Spirit has given to them.

One of the best children’s teachers I ever saw was a dumpy, balding, middle-aged man who used no fancy puppets, videos, powerpoints, magic tricks, or costumes. He just brought in a few pictures–on paper, not a computer!–and talked to the little ones (five and under). When I first saw him in action, I despaired, thinking that the children would be bored out of their gourds in one minute. But for the next ten minutes or so, he held them spell-bound. I thought he was boring, the kids thought he was wonderful. They hung on his every word. He broke every trick in the “How To Teach Children Creatively” Instruction Manual, but they loved him.

And as I studied him in future weeks, I realized that I was seeing an honest-to-goodness gift of the Holy Spirit, the teaching gift spoken of in I Corinthians, in action. It was amazing. There was no human way that this man could have held the attention of all those dozens of small children–it was the Holy Spirit at work.

So yes, I know that some people will break all the rules of good evangelism techniques, and call Protestants foul names and tell them that they have sinned mortally and that The Mother Mary of God is praying for them–and amazingly, instead of turning away, the Protestants WILL respond to this ministry and call upon the Name of the Lord and seek to be fully restored to His True Church. It’s the Holy Spirit at work, and far be it from me to scoff.

But I think that will be a rare gift, a gift that only a few saints have possessed. I think that most of us should stick with sweet reasonableness, as described in Philippians 4:5.

It’s a very valuable approach, but don’t forget that he was addressing non Christians. The way we address rebellious Catholics (the actual heretics

) needs to be straightforward as they are in greater danger of damnation and need to made very aware of that reality.

I personally would back away from addressing rebellious Catholics, because I am a new Catholic myself. I would pray for them, and try to get a more mature, knowledgeable Catholic involved in witnessing to them. Yes, I certainly would stand up for my faith and my Church if no one else was around, and trust that the Holy Spirit would give me the proper words and work in the rebellious person’s heart. But frankly, daughteroftruth, I don’t think that dealing with rebellious Catholics is an area that I am very good at. I think I would make things worse.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Aramis]

We’re forbidden to participate in false worship, and this includes Protestant worship. I wasn’t aware of the Church changing this (I am familiar with the *attempts *though).

Better to set an example of faithfulness to God than endorse condemned, false ecumenism.

Vatican II decrees on ecumenism do not permit participation in protestant worship services.

It removed the mortal sin attached to attending for academic or educational purpose. (It did not remove the sin from participation.)

It also permitted public joint prayer outside of normal worship services. This means allowing things like praying together at graduation commencements, anti-abortion rallies, etc.

 

[daughteroftruth]

That’s interesting. I actually haven’t seen this. My husband is an RCIA helper (in charge of training the sponsors), so he comes into contact with a lot of the converts to the Church, and he hasn’t seen it. But I can certainly agree that those who are not well-catechized will be very mushy in their theology.

You’re both very blessed to have been spared this. I went to our RCIA after I came back to the Church to learn more about my Faith, as well as other activities sponsored at our parish…BIG mistake. If I was interested in attempting to justify leaving the Church again, attending those classes would have been the way to do it, sadly.

Of course it’s an exaggeration. But some of the posts on this thread imply that Catholics believe we need to return to a time when Protestants were spurned as heretics and their places of worship shunned as dens of demons.

Well, I have to honestly say, I agree with the last part of your sentence, as it goes along with my view of them worshipping a false god. Let me explain my reasoning: It’s simply because they worship a Christ that never existed. I could list the many ways “their Christ” is false, so to speak, but I think we all know the differences. That’s just the way I see it, anyway…I could be wrong (well, not really tee-hee, ha-ha) I mean, not all pagans are evil, and neither are all the Jews, or atheists, etc, but their belief system is nevertheless warped. That doesn’t make the person bad, just misinformed. If they don’t learn any different because of our bad example, we’re in a worse place than they are.

So yes, I know that some people will break all the rules of good evangelism techniques, and call Protestants foul names and tell them that they have sinned mortally and that The Mother Mary of God is praying for them–and amazingly, instead of turning away, the Protestants WILL respond to this ministry and call upon the Name of the Lord and seek to be fully restored to His True Church. It’s the Holy Spirit at work, and far be it from me to scoff.

I don’t think the name-calling is needed, not at all, but the *blunt *approach. A lot of Saints were like this, but not 24/7. There’s a time and a place, and that’s why a strong prayer life coupled with diligent study is so necessary. There’s a time to be someone’s pain in the hind end, and there’s a time to be sugar and spice.

I think that most of us should stick with sweet reasonableness, as described in Philippians 4:5.

Well, with love and truth, we will not go wrong. But sometimes love hurts, and there may come a time when the greatest loving thing we can do is be harsh. It may not have the desired results initially, but in the end it will be for the best. Of course, the harsh approach can seem right and end up making things worse. Prayer and discernment, so necessary.

I personally would back away from addressing rebellious Catholics, because I am a new Catholic myself. I would pray for them, and try to get a more mature, knowledgeable Catholic involved in witnessing to them. Yes, I certainly would stand up for my faith and my Church if no one else was around, and trust that the Holy Spirit would give me the proper words and work in the rebellious person’s heart. But frankly, daughteroftruth, I don’t think that dealing with rebellious Catholics is an area that I am very good at. I think I would make things worse.

Well, that may not be His plan for you. We all have different gifts, some of us will be imitators of Therese, some of Thomas Aquinas, others Dominic, or Paul, Peter, John, Augustine, Catherine, Teresa…the list goes on.

 

[daughteroftruth]

Vatican II decrees on ecumenism do not permit participation in protestant worship services.

It removed the mortal sin attached to attending for academic or educational purpose. (It did not remove the sin from participation.)

In total agreement.

It also permitted public joint prayer outside of normal worship services. This means allowing things like praying together at graduation commencements, anti-abortion rallies, etc.

Cave in, but that’s just me.

 

[palmas85]

You do not have to call someone a name to speak the truth.

My husband and I were never called “heretics” by any Catholics. Instead, they did, indeed, speak the truth, and we came to see ourselves that we had always believed in heretical teachings. No one needed to throw it in our face. Instead of antagonizing us and being “pills,” people were kind to us.

Take care, everyone. Take great care. Many Protestant Christians have been hurt by their churches or by other Christians, and if you, in the name of Christian love and honesty, call them names, you may well push them over the top and totally away from the Church. After we were accused (falsely ) of various misdeeds and thrown out of our Protestant church, it wouldn’t have taken much for me to reject the Church entirely. In fact, I said to God that I would NEVER be part of any church again unless that church wooed me like a bride. I wouldn’t call “name-calling” wooing.

Good answer but you totally ignored the question I asked. So I will repeat, why do you consider the word heretic to be such a disgusting, degrading and hurtful word? I somehow doubt that most protestants would even care what we call them. Why would they? In many if not most of their eyes we are all just idol worshipping pagans for lack of a better word anyway. .

I have never called anyone a heretic to their face either, but that doesn’t change the plain inescapable fact that they are indeed following heretical ideas and thus are heretics…

When you were an evangelical Christian, did it really make any difference to you what a Catholic said about your beliefs? Did you stop to think what a hurtful word he used or why did he say that? No, I would bet not. In fact, I doubt that you would have paid any attention to it at all, just as most of them do not. What Catholics think, teach and believe just isn’t that important to the overwhelming majority of protestants. Except as it relates to them rescuing us from the horrors of Romanism and the clutches of the Pope:bigyikes: and saving us so to speak.

 

[palmas85]

Maybe I’m wrong and if so, please do not attack me for it, as a stroke patient I promise I am doing my best, bot strokes do effect the thinking and reasoning.

I thought a heretic as defined by the church herself is an individual who has known and respected the truth, but has deliberately rejected the truth, such people would be Luther, Calvin and the other founders of Prostestantism.

But I am not so sure that present day Lutherans, Reformed, and Presbyterians could be truly called heretics, they are not actively rejecting the truth, they do not even know the truth, and are just following in their ancestors footsteps and incorrect dogmas, through no fault of their own. How can such people be called heretics when they are not culpable? Their heresy is the heresy of their forbearers, not their own deliberate choice and thus they cannot be called heretics by the definition ofnthe church.

On the other hand Catholics who were adequately catechised, who knew the truthand deliberatly rejected it by joining another church, can be legitimatly called heretics.

There I think is the nub of the problem, deliberate choice.

Just like mortal sin, there has to be the knowledge of an act, and a deliberate choice to do it, before it can be called mortal sin.

Well, I will answer it this way. We live in an age of almost instantaneous communication on a worldwide basis. I don’t have to wait three weeks for a letter to arrive from the Philippines from my brother, I can IM him instantly and get a reply instantly. We have the internet on which if one is inclined to look, can be found a tremendous amount of information on just about everything. Even in many developing countries access to almost unlimited information is available. So the avenue for the overwhelming majority of protestants, at least in the western world , to see and learn the truth is there and readily available. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of them choose, freely, to reject it.

I’ll tell you what. Take a good look around the internet at just how many protstant sites there are that attack Catholicism viciously. All day every day. 24-7. Unending. The apparently common view that most protestants don’t know about the Church is just plain not true. In fact, if you happen by a few of their chat rooms you will see that more than a few of them know Catholicism quite a bit better than do many commited Catholics on this very forum. They have to know it. How else can they attack it? They do know and they do reject. They refuse to accept the truth.

So at what point do we say they are heretics? Does one require a degree in theology to say what he believes and disbelieves? On what he accepts and rejects? Does one have to have been a Catholic in order to become a heretic? That seems a bit far fetched and really doesn’t make a lot of sense.

In essence, the Catholic Church either is the one true Church or it is not. It is not a grey hazy area, It is starkly defined and very clear indeed. We as Catholics say or should say and believe that it is and they in their rejection of Her say and believe that it isn’t.

It really doesn’t get much clearer than that.

 

[TruthisBeauty7]

I too have learned a great deal about my faith from the Protestant Churches. I was baptized Catholic as a baby and confirmed but throughout my childhood and early young adult years I learned very little about the catholic faith. It just didnt seem the people teaching me ccd really knew much. Then around 19 I started looking into all religions, I studied at very 101 level Islam, Judiasm, Buddhism, Hinduism, Joseph Campbell, Native American Religion, Philosophy, Mormonism, Jehovah witness. Then I started watching protestant tv programs and I felt encouraged to read the bible on my own. I began to read alittle each night. Then I read the words, I am the way the truth and the life… I instantly Knew somehow that Jesus was telling the truth, so I decided to start going to Christian Churches. The first church I fullly committed to was a Messianic Jewish Church . I attended each work and learned a great deal about the bible, I was giving by this church a great zeal to learn and study the bible. I devoured the bible every night, some nights I would read every single one of pauls letters. I had a hungar instilled in me …

I then attended a protestant evangelical College. But right before entering I became a catholic again once I discovered the flaws in there teachings, and saw the Catholic church was the same church of the early christians. Yet I still attended this College. Some of the best Christians Ive met in my life were from this college. This was a protestant College and they had a great zeal and love for God. I couldnt call them heritics, because I know for fact the a great deal of protestants love Jesus.

I will be forever Grateful for my experience with Protestants both in Churches and In college.

I have a friend who has started his own Church where I live now. I have attended one service in the entire four years its begun. I m Catholic so I go to Catholic services, but I was thinking of attending again since he has a new church now and I hear its doing quite well. I don’t think the church would object to this , If I went out of support to my friend and to hear him preach.

God bless

 

[EnchantedEve]

Boldface mine, above–this is an absolutely excellent question, and I thank you so much for bringing it up.

I would answer your question “yes” for a number of reasons. This probably deserves a topic of its own here on CAF, but for now, I’ll leave it in this thread since this is the way the discussion is flowing. This is NOT an exhaustive answer to your question, but only a few ideas off the top of my head. And unfortunately, it’s too long for one post, so it will have to be divided into halves. Sorry.

Here are some reasons I say that Protestant faith is very fragile:

1. Many Protestants, especially evangelical, believe in the doctrine of sola Scriptura, or that the Bible is our SOLE source of authority. Many times, as long as the evangelical Protestant remains in their own church with their own people, they continue to believe this doctrine because there is no conflict. But when they venture outside of their church, perhaps to attend a community prayer meeting, or a Bible Study Fellowship-type Bible study, or a conference/seminar, or a youth group fellowship, they meet other Christians who hold different beliefs about the Bible and attend different churches.

Many of these differences seems superficial until the Protestant begins delving a little deeper. Then they begin to see how convoluted the various systems of Protestant theology are.

Certainly, all Christians, including CATHOLICS, believe in the Five Fundamentals of the Faith (Virgin birth and deity of Jesus, inerrancy of the Scirptures, substitutionary atonement of Jesus’s death, literal bodily resurrection of Jesus, miracles of Jesus and/or Second Coming of Jesus).

But ask twenty Protestants a simple question such as “How can I be saved?” and you will receive twenty different answers. All of them will have some element of “receiving Jesus” even as Catholic salvation theology does

But many will add, “Profess your faith before man” or “be baptized” or “do good works” or “don’t drink alcohol,” etc.

Such an important issue as eternal salvation is not clear-cut among Protestants, including evangelical Protestants!

And THIS is the kind of thing that can really shake up a Protestant’s faith and make them doubt what they have believed all their lives!

That’s one reason you’ll find that a lot of the fundamentalist Protestants are separatists (don’t associate with people outside of their church other than in business)–they’ve seen too many people “fall away from the faith” once they begin to ask too many questions. The fundamentalists are smart!–they know better than to let people ask too many questions!

1. Even though evangelical Protestants claim that they believe that the Scriptures are their sole source of authority, nevertheless, many of them develop a loyalty to a particular pastor, teacher, author, musician, or organization (e.g., Campus Crusade for Christ, or Focus on the Family, or a certain denomination).

WHEN one of these individuals or organizations is caught in a sin, especially if it is someone close to home that is known personally by the Protestant, it is absolutely devastating to the Protestant who has followed this person or organization.

I am not exaggerating to say that the very foundations of their faith are shaken and often destroyed when a person or organization fails.

The thought process is like this–if “THAT PERSON” or “THAT ORGANIZATION” whom I trusted was actually committing sin all the time, then HOW CAN I TRUST ANYTHING ELSE THAT THEY TAUGHT ME?!!

You see, the Protestants have no 2000-year-old Church to look to. They only have their Bibles and the men and women who interpret the Bible for them.

continued next post

Thank you for this, and for sharing your feelings. I think we all increased our understanding.

 

[palmas85]

I too have learned a great deal about my faith from the Protestant Churches. I was baptized Catholic as a baby and confirmed but throughout my childhood and early young adult years I learned very little about the catholic faith. It just didnt seem the people teaching me ccd really knew much. Then around 19 I started looking into all religions, I studied at very 101 level Islam, Judiasm, Buddhism, Hinduism, Joseph Campbell, Native American Religion, Philosophy, Mormonism, Jehovah witness. Then I started watching protestant tv programs and I felt encouraged to read the bible on my own. I began to read alittle each night. Then I read the words, I am the way the truth and the life… I instantly Knew somehow that Jesus was telling the truth, so I decided to start going to Christian Churches. The first church I fullly committed to was a Messianic Jewish Church . I attended each work and learned a great deal about the bible, I was giving by this church a great zeal to learn and study the bible. I devoured the bible every night, some nights I would read every single one of pauls letters. I had a hungar instilled in me …

I then attended a protestant evangelical College. But right before entering I became a catholic again once I discovered the flaws in there teachings, and saw the Catholic church was the same church of the early christians. Yet I still attended this College. Some of the best Christians Ive met in my life were from this college. This was a protestant College and they had a great zeal and love for God. I couldnt call them heritics, because I know for fact the a great deal of protestants love Jesus.

I will be forever Grateful for my experience with Protestants both in Churches and In college.

I have a friend who has started his own Church where I live now. I have attended one service in the entire four years its begun. I m Catholic so I go to Catholic services, but I was thinking of attending again since he has a new church now and I hear its doing quite well. I don’t think the church would object to this , If I went out of support to my friend and to hear him preach.

God bless

Calling someone a heretics does not imply in any way shape or form that they do not love Jesus. I have no doubt that many protestants do indeed love Jeus deeply. That does not however change the fact that their beliefs are flawed and that they refuse to accept the truth. Love does not always equal being right. And in spite of what we are often taught these days there is just a tad more to faith than loving everyone and accepting everything.

The current idea of all beliefs being good is troubling to me. The early Church did not do it and would not accept it. They were not afraid of speaking the truth. Neither was the Catholic Church until relatively recently.

As an aside it amazes me that many progressives will point out the early Church loudly and stridently when it suits them and their purposes and ignore it completely when it does not suit their agenda. Just a thought.

 

[Shin]

There’s a complete lack of humility inherent in this total dismissal of the language of the Councils and Popes and Church used throughout history – the Catholic Church, the apostles, the Lord is not some barbarian who uses this language to no purpose. There is also a complete lack of empathy with Christian thought and feeling in this matter – rather instead there is empathy solely with the people who are separated from Christ… . one does not want one’s heart to be there in such a fashion if one has any sense, even if it is.

There is a reason why preservation of the truth is important. Christ calls us to emotional healing from wounded attachments to perceiving things in certain ways that traumatic experiences cause us. If we cannot get over these traumas directly, we have to try to understand and overcome them obliquely until we can. In other words, even if we cannot directly overcome the problem because of our emotional state, we have to admit we have a problem and approach dealing with it in some fashion or another until it can be truly dealt with.

So – My thought is: Acknowledge the truth of the stance of the Church on this issue, face it, and do what you can emotionally to heal and overcome it. One can admit the truth is something without liking it – this is the beginning of honesty and knowledge that helps one on the path we all need to conversion.

There are good reasons to use the word heresy, and they have to be learned from the heart.

‘Let your constant practice be to offer yourself to God, that He may do with you what He pleases.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

 

[Cat]

You’re both very blessed to have been spared this. I went to our RCIA after I came back to the Church to learn more about my Faith, as well as other activities sponsored at our parish…BIG mistake. If I was interested in attempting to justify leaving the Church again, attending those classes would have been the way to do it, sadly.

Well, I have to honestly say, I agree with the last part of your sentence, as it goes along with my view of them worshipping a false god. Let me explain my reasoning: It’s simply because they worship a Christ that never existed. I could list the many ways “their Christ” is false, so to speak, but I think we all know the differences. That’s just the way I see it, anyway…I could be wrong (well, not really tee-hee, ha-ha) I mean, not all pagans are evil, and neither are all the Jews, or atheists, etc, but their belief system is nevertheless warped. That doesn’t make the person bad, just misinformed. If they don’t learn any different because of our bad example, we’re in a worse place than they are.

I don’t think the name-calling is needed, not at all, but the *blunt *approach. A lot of Saints were like this, but not 24/7. There’s a time and a place, and that’s why a strong prayer life coupled with diligent study is so necessary. There’s a time to be someone’s pain in the hind end, and there’s a time to be sugar and spice.

Well, with love and truth, we will not go wrong. But sometimes love hurts, and there may come a time when the greatest loving thing we can do is be harsh. It may not have the desired results initially, but in the end it will be for the best. Of course, the harsh approach can seem right and end up making things worse. Prayer and discernment, so necessary.

Well, that may not be His plan for you. We all have different gifts, some of us will be imitators of Therese, some of Thomas Aquinas, others Dominic, or Paul, Peter, John, Augustine, Catherine, Teresa…the list goes on.

Boldface mine, above–I agree with much of what you say, but I don’t agree with this.

First of all, Jesus Himself said that if a child asks for bread, will his father give him a stone? I believe that if a person sincerely asks for Jesus, that God will not give Him a “false Jesus.”

Certainly Christians can create a “false Jesus” in their minds–it’s a human failing. We cannot see Him, so we use our human imaginations to fashion Him into what we think He is based on our limited understanding from the Bible, various songs and sermons, and from story books.

There’s an old children’s song (I wish I could find it somewhere–I’ve heard, I’ve even played for it, but the music didn’t belong to me and I couldn’t keep a copy)–about how Jesus is black to little children in Africa, and yellow to little children in Asia–you get the idea.

But the main reason why I believe that Protestants worship the real Jesus is because when I first started attending Mass, I recognized Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Now how could I recognize Jesus in His Real Presence if all those decades, I had been worshipping a false Jesus?

The Catechism says that Protestant churches teach a portion of the Gospel. I think this is absolutely true. Now that I have been Catholic for five years, I see that the Christianity that believed in for most of my life was real Christianity, but imcomplete.

 

[Cat]

Good answer but you totally ignored the question I asked. So I will repeat, why do you consider the word heretic to be such a disgusting, degrading and hurtful word? I somehow doubt that most protestants would even care what we call them. Why would they? In many if not most of their eyes we are all just idol worshipping pagans for lack of a better word anyway. .

I have never called anyone a heretic to their face either, but that doesn’t change the plain inescapable fact that they are indeed following heretical ideas and thus are heretics…

When you were an evangelical Christian, did it really make any difference to you what a Catholic said about your beliefs? Did you stop to think what a hurtful word he used or why did he say that? No, I would bet not. In fact, I doubt that you would have paid any attention to it at all, just as most of them do not. What Catholics think, teach and believe just isn’t that important to the overwhelming majority of protestants. Except as it relates to them rescuing us from the horrors of Romanism and the clutches of the Pope:bigyikes: and saving us so to speak.

I’m sorry I ignored your question.

A heretic is someone who does not believe in Jesus, and to a Christian, Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, our Only Hope of joy in this life and the next.

A heretic is someone who is caught up in lies. Satan is the Father of Lies, and to imply that a Christian is involved intimately with Satan is horrific.

Many of the Protestants, especially in recent decades, have been martyred for their faith. To imply that these people didn’t truly believe in Jesus, and that they were living a lie is to say that their suffering and martyrdom was in vain.

**I personally know missionaries who had loved ones martyred in Viet Nam, **horribly martyred. (They were hung up by their hands in trees and machetes were used to chop off the feet and then the machete-wielders worked their way up until there was nothing left of the person’s body.) To call these people “heretics” is unthinkable and cruel.

As for caring what Catholics think–of course Protestants care! Many Protestants admire Catholics and the Catholic Church for the unwavering stand against abortion. Many Protestant teachers and preachers confess in shame that Protestants dropped the ball on the abortion issue, and praise Catholics for never dropping the ball.

Now that doesn’t mean that Protestants will agree with Catholics! But the Bible says that as much as it is possible with us, we should strive to be at peace with all men. (Romans 12: 18, Romans 14: 19, etc.) Protestants don’t want Catholics to think badly of them, and they certainly don’t want to be accused of heresy.

I absolutely agree with you that Protestants are following after heretical teachings and it is TRAGIC. I am afraid for the eternal souls of my loved ones.

I do NOT accept that they are heretics. As several other posters have stated, a heretic is one who UNDERSTANDS the truth and deliberately rejects it. Most Protestants have no clue whatsover about Catholicism, and they are so involved with their own churches and ministries that they will never take the time to study the Catholic Church. In our case, God in His mercy allowed us to be kicked out of the Protestant church–and THAT nightmare became a glorious opportunity for us to walk into the Holy Mother Church.

But I don’t think that saying to their faces that the believe in heresy is the best way to convince them of their error. What worked for me and my husband was to hear the Truth from priests and catechists and authors (including some of the Catholic Answers apologists).

Then, in the privacy of our own prayer closets, we mulled over this truth and held it up against what we had always accepted as truth. Our “truth” didn’t stand up to the close examination, and compared to the beauty of the Catholic Church doctrines, our Protestant doctrines were obviously twisted.

So rather than telling Protestants all the things that they are wrong about, I maintain that it is better to tell them all about the Catholic Church, and let them figure it out for themselves.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Many of the Protestants, especially in recent decades, have been martyred for their faith. To imply that these people didn’t truly believe in Jesus, and that they were living a lie is to say that their suffering and martyrdom was in vain.

**I personally know missionaries who had loved ones martyred in Viet Nam, **horribly martyred. (They were hung up by their hands in trees and machetes were used to chop off the feet and then the machete-wielders worked their way up until there was nothing left of the person’s body.) To call these people “heretics” is unthinkable and cruel.

Now that doesn’t mean that Protestants will agree with Catholics! But the Bible says that as much as it is possible with us, we should strive to be at peace with all men. (Romans 12: 18, Romans 14: 19, etc.) Protestants don’t want Catholics to think badly of them, and they certainly don’t want to be accused of heresy.

But I don’t think that saying to their faces that the believe in heresy is the best way to convince them of their error. What worked for me and my husband was to hear the Truth from priests and catechists and authors (including some of the Catholic Answers apologists).

So rather than telling Protestants all the things that they are wrong about, I maintain that it is better to tell them all about the Catholic Church, and let them figure it out for themselves.

While I agree that we do not have to shove heresy in the protestant’s faces, I do disagree that you do not think they are heretics. To deny this is to deny Church teaching. The Church has always defined that it is not necessary to fully comprehend the nature of error to culpable in error.

As far those who were martyred as protestants, the Church teaches thus:

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, Council of Florence:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

We do not believe this out of spite, but it is what we believe, and we cannot deny this. We can certainly have good relations with protestants and others, but we do them no favors unless we adhere to the Faith whole and entire, and in it integrity.

Again, we cannot know for certain where people go, but we must fear for those not in the Faith, or in the Faith and not practicing, for their salvation is certainly in jeapordy. But I think all men are given different gifts whereby we gain conversions. Some can be confrontational, most though are more persuasive (my preferred way). In fact, I would say the Catholic life is so good, that, if people observe us living it well, they will not be able to resist its beauty.