what does your church teach about Predestination? I have Qs

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I am fairly new to this site, but I know while I have been here this topic has come up several times. Man has free will. God is the author of time and stands out side of time as he is eternal. From his vantage point he can see the past and future at once.
how can He see a future that is not there to be seen? If we have free will to do as we please… and our actions affect our spirituality… which they do… or some of them do… there is no absolutely fixed future for God to see… He only sees what CAN… what probably will happen knowing human nature… i think the only predestination is… Well, if a person choses the devil one day… easier to do so t he next… then easier even still the next… until he has no consicence… God can probably predict waht a man with no consicence is going to do… and God can probably predict or know what a just person will choose… or is very likely to choose… but He does not KNOW a person’s absolute future, their every single choice… cuz then we would be robots… God knows everything and yet He can choose to give us freedom that will preclude HIm knowing what we are going to do.
 
He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. The creator of all things. Author of Genesis and Revelation which is what has happened and what will happen. The bible demonstrates his Fore-knowledge by the words he put into his prophets mouth.
 
oh please…

how sanctimonious sounding and ad hominem…
I don’t care whether what I said was sanctimonious sounding or not. It was true. What you wrote about Aquinas was so arrogant and so silly that there’s no point trying to continue a conversation with you.

Now how about you stop being offended and seriously consider whether what I am saying is true?

Life is too short for you to pass up on an opportunity to become wiser and better just because I happen to be a very obnoxious person.

Edwin
 
He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. The creator of all things. Author of Genesis and Revelation which is what has happened and what will happen. The bible demonstrates his Fore-knowledge by the words he put into his prophets mouth.
if this is an argument against my last post, it doesn’t work… i stand by what i said.

we are either robots or we are not… and i think most Christians and even others beleive in God’s omniscience… has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

God can do whatever He wnts and if we wants to give us humans freedom to choose evil or good, he can and DID…
 
God can do what he wants. He also permits things to exist (Evil). God is Absolutely Sovereign (Calvin) but doesn"t always exercise this Sovereignty. He allows us to have free will to freely come to him and accept free gift of salvation. He can blot our names out of the book of life. Before the New Testament ever came into being the Jews always acknowledged Free will.
 
God can do what he wants. He also permits things to exist (Evil). God is Absolutely Sovereign (Calvin) but doesn"t always exercise this Sovereignty. He allows us to have free will to freely come to him and accept free gift of salvation. He can blot our names out of the book of life. Before the New Testament ever came into being the Jews always acknowledged Free will.
i am so glad you have finally come to your senses and agree with me… 😃
 
God does know the future and what we will ultimately decide to do. He knows who the elect will be and we do not. He does not decide what we will do, that is within our free will. I agree with the calvinist that god is absolutely sovereign and could decide to do what they suggest. The problem is he doesn’t, he is absolutely sovereign but allows evil and gave us free will. It is thru this free will that evil entered into the world. God did not create evil as some Protestants suggest. It says in scripture, " I have placed before you life and death, choose life". It also says “god wills that all men be saved and come to repentance.” This means that we can condemn ourselves by our sin and lack of repentance. " We are predestined to be conformed to the image of christ." I don’t explain it very well, and I know that Aquinas goes in to great detail. Within Catholicism there is a Molonist view and a Thomist view. I subscribe to a Thomist view.
 
God does know the future and what we will ultimately decide to do. He knows who the elect will be and we do not. He does not decide what we will do, that is within our free will. I agree with the calvinist that god is absolutely sovereign and could decide to do what they suggest. The problem is he doesn’t, he is absolutely sovereign but allows evil and gave us free will. It is thru this free will that evil entered into the world. God did not create evil as some Protestants suggest. It says in scripture, " I have placed before you life and death, choose life". It also says “god wills that all men be saved and come to repentance.” This means that we can condemn ourselves by our sin and lack of repentance. " We are predestined to be conformed to the image of christ." I don’t explain it very well, and I know that Aquinas goes in to great detail. Within Catholicism there is a Molonist view and a Thomist view. I subscribe to a Thomist view.
what’s the molonist?

you make me want to tackle Thomas again… tried a few times b4… probably have attention deficit or soemthing :whacky::hypno:

actually its probably more like Syndrome D (as i call it): Disturbed/Distracted/Demonically attacked…

the devil always attacks people who hate his guts…

but anyhow, where was I ?

yeah, i was told (after taking some test on CAF some time ago) that my thinking processes and my spirituality are Thomist… so i think i should read him… sounds like someone i might like… and i hardly like anyone these days… 😃

but anyhow… your words aren’t entirely clear to me… probably due to ADD and Syndrome D…

are you saying that … well, do you believe that if a person is born into a non-religious family… so he has that influence to deal with… he is basically pre-destined to end up in Hell? cuz even if he heard about Jesus and the Church… he would be predisposed to reject that…

there are many who have been raised that way and have chosen Christ… but… anyhow…

I am getting more and more confused… :banghead::confused:

sorry, guess i just dont know exactly where you’re coming from at this point…
 
what’s the molonist?

you make me want to tackle Thomas again… tried a few times b4… probably have attention deficit or soemthing :whacky::hypno:

actually its probably more like Syndrome D (as i call it): Disturbed/Distracted/Demonically attacked…

the devil always attacks people who hate his guts…

but anyhow, where was I ?

yeah, i was told (after taking some test on CAF some time ago) that my thinking processes and my spirituality are Thomist… so i think i should read him… sounds like someone i might like… and i hardly like anyone these days… 😃

but anyhow… your words aren’t entirely clear to me… probably due to ADD and Syndrome D…

are you saying that … well, do you believe that if a person is born into a non-religious family… so he has that influence to deal with… he is basically pre-destined to end up in Hell? cuz even if he heard about Jesus and the Church… he would be predisposed to reject that…

there are many who have been raised that way and have chosen Christ… but… anyhow…

I am getting more and more confused… :banghead::confused:

sorry, guess i just dont know exactly where you’re coming from at this point…
Hi disracted

I am in the same boat as you.
This is where i am at the moment.
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made all things for himself.
Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God ‘‘NEEDED’’ Judus to bring about his plan for salvation.
The bible is clear Some come from above.
Some are his sheep.
There are some from below.
Who are not his sheep.
The reality is only a FEW are chosen. It is all in scripture.
There are children of the God.
There are children or the Devil.

You have Got the devil and his Demons.
Can the children of The devil be saved???

Jacob was Chosen. But ESAU God hated before he was Born. also all of his descendants.:hmmm:

There is the direct will of God and there is his permissible will.
So us Christians have a certain amount of free will and choices.
So when we mess up he chastises us. we are here to learn how to Live.
God will not let anything come between Him and his children.
Jesus was predestined its in scripture and Just like us God knew us before we were Born.
 
Hi disracted

I am in the same boat as you.
This is where i am at the moment.
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made all things for himself.
Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil…
i dont belive this psg means that some are “made for” Hell… No, i am not saying that YOU are saying it does… but anyhow…

i would say i KNOW it doesn’t say or imply such a thing … I dont believe any person was made for Hell… not even Judas… Judas could have repented after he betrayed jesus… and Jesus would still have died for us, fulfilling God’s will… and Judas could have made it at least to the lowest part of Purgatory if only he’d repented and accepted Christ’s forgivenss. Actually he did show remorse for what he’d done but did not then ask for forgiveness…

probably Judas was virtually sold out to the devil long b4 the Last Supper… The devil entered him at the Last S, but he was already inclined to accept him anyhow or it (the devil possessing him) wouldn’t have happened… Those who are possessed have to give permission or the devil cannot enter…

The only “predestination” i believe in is this: God knows how sin destroys us… obviously knows far better than we humans… He knows that certain people who have sinned over & over (example: Judas) are far less likely to repent than someone who… say, sins and then repents, sins, then repents… ;

.
God ‘‘NEEDED’’ Judus to bring about his plan for salvation…
yes but He didn’t need for Judas to refuse to repent… .and end up in Hell 4-ever… God is merciful and just… Hell is 4-ever… 4-ever is a very long time… He doesn’t make certain people hopeless and therefore… make them for Hell… In the OT it says that God does not rejoice over the one who “dies” as a result of lack of repentance… In the new T, it says that he is not willing that any should perish…

.
The bible is clear Some come from above.
Some are his sheep.
There are some from below…
but because of CHOICE, not because of any kind of predestination to Hell… .
The reality is only a FEW are chosen. It is all in scripture.
There are children of the God.
There are children or the Devil…
again… True… but they are the children of the devil through CHOICE… .
Jacob was Chosen. But ESAU God hated before he was Born. also all of his descendants.:hmmm:
where is this story in the Bible? I know its probably in Genesis or Exodus… ? Even if this is exactly waht is said, i still don buy it that anyone is destined for Hell… God probably “hates” those conceived in mortal sin (adultery or whatever)… but even though God hated Esau, that does not mean that he was hopeless as far as reconciling w/ God and getting to Heaven eventually…

If we were not so accountable… for our actions… there would have been no reason for God to get SO angry at the Israelites as he did in the Old Testament times… that he punished them “double for their sins”

the reason He gets so angry is because people do not CHOOSE Him…
 
someone on the forums some time ago was trying to tell me that God knows beforehand who is going to accept Jesus (be saved) and who is not

but that goes against my notions of free will… I believe everyone has a chance to the very end of his life… to choose Jesus… or reject HIm… Many you would think never would, DO and sometimes those who choose Him fall away from HIm…
John 15:16 is pretty clear when it says … "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you … "

Those who fall away would not be one of the chosen. I came to the realization many years ago that I am one of the damned. I am one of the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction … Romans 9:22
 
John 15:16 is pretty clear when it says … "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you … "
anyone who accepts Christ is chosen by Him rather than vice versa… This just shows that it is God who calls and chooses… but a person can lose his or her chosen-ness… through sin… and EVERYONE is called… God chooses everyone… but everyone does not choose God…
Those who fall away would not be one of the chosen. I came to the realization many years ago that I am one of the damned. I am one of the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction … Romans 9:22
this is totally WRONG.

You are only lost if you CHOOSE to be…

If you accept Christ, get baptized… and avoid sin, you will make it to Heaven…

don’t let anyone tell you otherwise…

I KNOW this is true…

Also, if you… .after doing the aforementioned… spend a lot of time with Jesus in the Real Presence, He will show you many things about … yourself… about who you REALLY are… not what the world tells you about yourself… (pay no attention to that…)…

and you will see truth… I go There and sit in silence and listen… and many things are shown to me…
 
i dont belive this psg means that some are “made for” Hell… No, i am not saying that YOU are saying it does… but anyhow…

i would say i KNOW it doesn’t say or imply such a thing … I dont believe any person was made for Hell… not even Judas… Judas could have repented after he betrayed jesus… and Jesus would still have died for us, fulfilling God’s will… and Judas could have made it at least to the lowest part of Purgatory if only he’d repented and accepted Christ’s forgivenss. Actually he did show remorse for what he’d done but did not then ask for forgiveness…

probably Judas was virtually sold out to the devil long b4 the Last Supper… The devil entered him at the Last S, but he was already inclined to accept him anyhow or it (the devil possessing him) wouldn’t have happened… Those who are possessed have to give permission or the devil cannot enter…

The only “predestination” i believe in is this: God knows how sin destroys us… obviously knows far better than we humans… He knows that certain people who have sinned over & over (example: Judas) are far less likely to repent than someone who… say, sins and then repents, sins, then repents… ;

. yes but He didn’t need for Judas to refuse to repent… .and end up in Hell 4-ever… God is merciful and just… Hell is 4-ever… 4-ever is a very long time… He doesn’t make certain people hopeless and therefore… make them for Hell… In the OT it says that God does not rejoice over the one who “dies” as a result of lack of repentance… In the new T, it says that he is not willing that any should perish…

. but because of CHOICE, not because of any kind of predestination to Hell… .

again… True… but they are the children of the devil through CHOICE… .

where is this story in the Bible? I know its probably in Genesis or Exodus… ? Even if this is exactly waht is said, i still don buy it that anyone is destined for Hell… God probably “hates” those conceived in mortal sin (adultery or whatever)… but even though God hated Esau, that does not mean that he was hopeless as far as reconciling w/ God and getting to Heaven eventually…

If we were not so accountable… for our actions… there would have been no reason for God to get SO angry at the Israelites as he did in the Old Testament times… that he punished them “double for their sins”

the reason He gets so angry is because people do not CHOOSE Him…
Hi distracted.Read all of Romans 9
Code:
                                               Romans 9:16 
                          Its not for him that willeth nor for him that runneth.
So our desire or effort to be saved will not make us saved. It is God who chooses not us
He puts the desire in us and the works.

Read Romans 9:19-24 who are we to find fault with God. he is the potter we are the clay
he raises up vessels for honor and for dishonor for his purpose.
I read some where If it is hard for the Righteous to be saved what chance has the ungodly.

I am with you on my views God should give everybody a chance.🤷
Where does it say those born in mortal sin God hates because i was born in mortal sin??

When i first heard the Gospel I Responded straight away>I always believed in a God and
I never had a religious upbringing it was natural with me. although i have struggled with the christian faith.

Why was all of Esaus descendants hated and Rejected??
Why was all of Jacobs decendents accepted??
Its all over the bible God Choosing before they where Born because of his foreknowledge.

If it was not Judas it had to be somebody then you had the people crucify Jesus somebody had to do this. God wanted this to happen for his purpose.

I have read in the old testament God told people to smash babies against rocks!!
Also when he was punishing his people he told them to eat there own children that died.
When he flooded the whole world there where children and babys then.🤷
 
Hi distracted.Read all of Romans 9
Code:
                                               Romans 9:16 
                          Its not for him that willeth nor for him that runneth.
So our desire or effort to be saved will not make us saved. It is God who chooses not us
He puts the desire in us and the works.

Read Romans 9:19-24 who are we to find fault with God. he is the potter we are the clay
he raises up vessels for honor and for dishonor for his purpose.
I read some where If it is hard for the Righteous to be saved what chance has the ungodly.

I am with you on my views God should give everybody a chance.🤷
Where does it say those born in mortal sin God hates because i was born in mortal sin??

When i first heard the Gospel I Responded straight away>I always believed in a God and
I never had a religious upbringing it was natural with me. although i have struggled with the christian faith.

Why was all of Esaus descendants hated and Rejected??
Why was all of Jacobs decendents accepted??
Its all over the bible God Choosing before they where Born because of his foreknowledge.

If it was not Judas it had to be somebody then you had the people crucify Jesus somebody had to do this. God wanted this to happen for his purpose.

I have read in the old testament God told people to smash babies against rocks!!
Also when he was punishing his people he told them to eat there own children that died.
When he flooded the whole world there where children and babys then.🤷
I agree. The scriptures are pretty clear that God chooses only a few for salvation and damns the vast majority of mankind to Hell. The ‘Bible God’ is a terrror, a monster beyond belief. The Bible is the product of sick minds seduced by evil spirits. Thankfully we have proof within the scriptures that it was all a fraud … 2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/notcoming.shtml
 
I agree. The scriptures are pretty clear that God chooses only a few for salvation and damns the vast majority of mankind to Hell. The ‘Bible God’ is a terrror, a monster beyond belief. The Bible is the product of sick minds seduced by evil spirits. Thankfully we have proof within the scriptures that it was all a fraud … 2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/notcoming.shtml
Hi Vimy Ridge

I don’t Think we have proof within Scripture it is all a fraud. But we do have proof of the character of God. His vengeance are supposed to be his righteous Judgments.

When i came to Christ to choose salvation I must admit everything went badly wrong
I had the faith to repent and Get baptised. but i Found i could not Live the christian Life.
I was to busy working and following my dream as a professional snooker player.
Now I must deny myself take up my cross and follow Jesus. He who loves the world the love of the father is not in him.
I wanted God to help me with snooker. I cant pack up snooker Just like that. God did not help if anything circumstance went against me then 5 years later i started fornicating with Karen who did not believe in marriage. Things went wrong because i struggled to have sex with her because of impotence. I think it was through the stress of sinning

This happened because i got despondent after leaving 2 churches that turned out to be cults. I went to another church to give it another Go. All i could do at this stage was hand my Life over to God So he can do as he pleases. So God decided That i should have cancer. What a Nightmare after 2 operations i am Left with a infirmity. I can’t carry on professional Snooker. I was going to church for 18 months
suffering depression i was also not working. but for some reason the leaders were telling me Christians don’t get depressed. It was a happy clappy church. I was threatend with excommunication. I left because of the stress they where giving me.

Then I went back to work taxi-driving met Janet who Changed her name to Micah Djinn Javic who was a operator on the Radio.
She was reading the bible. we got married i did not want children she had already children from a previous relationship she was never married but she had her tubes tied so she could not have children unless she had her tubes untied.
After 2 years i Left to get some space because of her Jealousy problems thinking i was seeing other women. Also she had strange beliefs thinking God was a woman and she was into Egyptian Gods. She even believed she was God. She was insulting me in what i believed. Then the stress caused my health to deteriorate and i could no work
when i left because of the stress she was causing me. She started a relationship with somebody else very quickly.
So it seems that marriage was damned.
I was Living with my dad and a year later he died at 81 then a year later i got divorced because she was still with the other person.

It seems that when God Chooses people he chastises them to conform to his will.
OK we can’t do the will of God There is nothing in us to be able to. I spent the next seven years being very cold Towards God. I Just did my own thing pleasing my self in what i did
Living for myself. I did not commit any serious Sins Like adultery fornication etc.
But God pointed out to me i was being a sluggard towards doing his will.
also once a fortnight i turned to drugs, drink and pornography and after because of guilt now and then i repented ask for forgiveness. But i kept doing it again. In the end i told God you will have to do something make me board of this i am stuck. So i developed a allergy against the speed i was taking. So i had to stop taking it. Now i cant enjoy a drink because i could only enjoy a drink with speed. Now the desire to watch porn has Gone
Because i only enjoyed it with drink and drugs.

I have seemed to have clicked what it is. For God to Choose you you have to ask him to
To Choose you Ask him to change that hard heart in you to a soft heart. ask him to change your will to his will. Ask him for a steadfast spirit. Ask him to fill you with his spirit. Ask him for the ability to deny self and take up your cross and follow him.
It seems to be working with me. I have Changed i have Gone Hot. I am asking him to show me the truth in his word and asking him to show me the right church to Go To.
I asked him to change my mind to the mind of Christ.
I have stopped doing my own thing. Everyday i am constantly working at it i cant stop my self knocking for answers. I thank God for what he is doing in my Life good or bad if it means me being saved

All i can say to you Vimy Ridge

God is the creator if you feel God has no chosen you and you lack faith and repentance.
If you Get real with God. Ask God to Chose you. Ask God for faith. Ask God to grant repentance in you. ask him to change your hard heart to a soft heart. Hand you Life To Him to do as he pleases with it. Ask him for all that i have suggested above.

It does not take allot to Ask God for everything that is needed you have done your part
and will be Justified. Trust me God will do his part.
The cross and blood of Christ takes care of the penalty and power of Sin.
Thank God. thank Jesus for what he has done. communicate with his the holy spirit.
 
Hi distracted.Read all of Romans 9
Code:
                                               Romans 9:16 
                          Its not for him that willeth nor for him that runneth.
So our desire or effort to be saved will not make us saved. It is God who chooses not us
He puts the desire in us and the works.

Read Romans 9:19-24 who are we to find fault with God. he is the potter we are the clay
he raises up vessels for honor and for dishonor for his purpose.
I read some where If it is hard for the Righteous to be saved what chance has the ungodly.

I am with you on my views God should give everybody a chance.🤷
Where does it say those born in mortal sin God hates because i was born in mortal sin??

When i first heard the Gospel I Responded straight away>I always believed in a God and
I never had a religious upbringing it was natural with me. although i have struggled with the christian faith.

Why was all of Esaus descendants hated and Rejected??
Why was all of Jacobs decendents accepted??
Its all over the bible God Choosing before they where Born because of his foreknowledge.

If it was not Judas it had to be somebody then you had the people crucify Jesus somebody had to do this. God wanted this to happen for his purpose.

I have read in the old testament God told people to smash babies against rocks!!
Also when he was punishing his people he told them to eat there own children that died.
When he flooded the whole world there where children and babys then.🤷
he didn’t TELL pepole to eat their own children… he just predicted that they would do that… He knows better tahn anyone how depraved we humans can and will become without having Him in our lives… in fact, maybe that’s why the Eucharist… cuz we must have Him even in our very bodies in order to remain clean of sin… and even then we struggle … as i am sure everyone knows…

in any case, i know that God does not destine anyone to Hell… No one will ever convince me of this… There are numerous passages in the Bible that support me on this… God is not willing that any should perish, etc… i can bring some of those scriptures into this thread tomorrow… they are not on me… but i have written down a lot of them… that support me…

Im sorry but if you want my honest opinion… and hopefully you do… i think it is absurd to assert that God created certain people for Hell… and your words seem to indicate that you think this…
 
anyone who accepts Christ is chosen by Him rather than vice versa… This just shows that it is God who calls and chooses… but a person can lose his or her chosen-ness… through sin… and EVERYONE is called… God chooses everyone [for life]… but everyone does not choose God.
1 Tim. 2:4 - “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

2 Peter 3:9 - “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

But how can this be reconciled with passages like…

Matthew 22:14
- “Many are called but few are chosen”

…which clearly details a distinction between chosen and unchosen. Christ even spoke of parables (like the Wheat and the Tares) where there is a separation of good fruit and bad fruit.

Also there is a passage Rev. 20:12-15] that talks about the dead being judged at the seat of God. The Book of Life is opened and the dead are judged “according to their works”. Whoever was not found written in th book of life was casted into the lake of fire Rev. 20:15].

Answer:

What I’m about to say may be controversal for many (Catholics and Non-Catholics) but,

We (all of our names) are written in the Book of Life…THAT is our Predestination.

Before Satan, we were alive…but after Adam’s choice we were dead…then after Christ redemptive act, we received life once again.

That is God’s Will: Life, as “God is Life”…but we have the free will to choose against God; against God’s Will…thus we erase our names out of the Book of Life.

Psalm 69:28 - “Let them be blotted out [erased] of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.”

The Book of Life is not a book any of us possess and can read. It is sparingly reference to throughout the whole of the books in the Bible. Nevertheless, it is a book we have power to alter, individually. We - throughout our works (choices in life) - have the power to remove our name from this Holy Census or Manifest, if you will (…hey! That’s a pun).

Our individual walk in life is our choice…we have free will. The only thing that matters to God is Life (and lack of Life). He wants all of his seed to live…but it’s their choice. He’s her for us whenever we need him and he will guide us but only if we see his will. This is a grace period when all have a choice - before judgement comes - to either choose life or death.
 
This is the official Lutheran position, Distracted:

We believe that already before the world was created, God chose those individuals whom he would in time convert through the gospel of Christ and preserve in faith to eternal life (Ephesians 1:4-6; Romans 8:29,30). This election to faith and salvation in no way was caused by anything in people but shows how completely salvation is by grace alone (Romans 11:5,6).

We reject the false and blasphemous conclusion that those who are lost were predestined, or elected, by God to damnation, for God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9).
This definition is almost correct . . . but:
  1. In your proposition that “the lost were not predestined by God to damnation,” I think you were a bit too concise, especially for such a strong statement on blasphemy. It is not so black and white as you make it seem.
  2. In your proposition that “God wants all people to be saved,” I think you were a bit too hasty with your proof texts, and I recommend that you do a more thorough exegesis of those passages.
Not to come against you or anything, but I thought I might add my two cents as a brother in Christ, that we might rejoice in the dialog and contemplation of that which our Father teaches us in His holy word. 👍
 
I agree. The scriptures are pretty clear that God chooses only a few for salvation and damns the vast majority of mankind to Hell. The ‘Bible God’ is a terrror, a monster beyond belief. The Bible is the product of sick minds seduced by evil spirits. Thankfully we have proof within the scriptures that it was all a fraud … 2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/notcoming.shtml
maybe it is those who don’t believe who have sick minds…?

hmm… let’s see… Dahmer… Bundy… Saddaam… Hitler… all unbelivers…

then there are the believers: St Francis… Mother Teresa… St John Vianney… St Vincent de Paul…
 
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