What does your world consist of?

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Of course you, as a committed Christian, would say so, since this seems to be the standard script to follow when not having an actual response to the claim that it’s intellectually and emotionally rewarding to reject supernatural religion. As far as I can see, rejection of Christianity only absolves me from responsibility to imaginary beings, not to my fellow humans and the other inhabitants of my real world.
You don’t know that you are absolved from anything, and that you prefer to see religion as a fairy tale only tells me that you would prefer to see it as a fairy tale. Its always going to be emotionally rewarding to reject or escape something that you perceive as a fret to your desired lifestyle, but that doesn’t really tell me much. If a person takes crack and tells me that they are happy because of it, that’s fine, but that does not change the fact that their emotional reward has no real substance worth pursuing. You would prefer to believe, without evidence, that you ultimately live in a meaningless nonsensical reality, living a life that ultimately has no more moral value than human excrement, and is going to crease to exist. While believing that, you choose to indulge in fantasies about your value as a person; and you do this because you think the emotional reward is a better pay off than being a servant of God.

As for the “intellectual reward”, this is purely imaginary on your part, lacking any real objectivity. There is no intellectual substance to atheism. Metaphysical naturalism has never made any positive inferences that back its claim. All I see from metaphysical naturalists is an irrational degree of scepticism toward anything that stands in the way of atheism. Your atheism is clearly reactionary and biased, which is the same thing you claim religion to be. It is evident to me and any honest person that a metaphysical naturalist has to ignore a large spectrum of human experience in-order to seem remotely valid as a belief system. It evades reality; it is not an intelligible response to reality. Its a hoodwink; and you have fallen for it.
 
I admire your courage and honesty. 👍

Anger and confusion are the inevitable consequences of atheism.
Actually, I think it’s more the other way around.
Or neither. My mom would say it’s just my age.
 
  1. I do not discount the times when **in the short term **selfishness leads to satisfaction and love to unbearable heartache
  2. We do reap the results of circumstances other than just our own actions and intentions
  3. In the short term generosity does sometimes lead to getting walked on and other times anger and aggression do yield positive results
  4. **In the long term our positive actions, aspirations and achievements bring us more **happiness and fulfilment than our negative attitudes and destructive actions
I have to agree, actually…
In general, selfishness gets us nowhere. Sure, we get material possessions, but I have yet to meet anyone who said this was what makes them happy. Whether because of God or evolution, etc., humans seem to be meant to help one another and be together and this is what actually gives them joy.
Love can cause unbearable heartache, yes, but isn’t a life with both love and pain more worth living than one played safe by not loving anyone too much? Just in general, anyway.
 
Let’s face it. Life stinks. The sooner we’re out of here the better.

Nevertheless…

Empress Theresa’s Summary of Theology…

“The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want
He maketh me to lie in green pastures; he leadeth me to still waters
Though I walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil for Thou art with me
Goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever”
 
Anger, confusion, and scaredness.
This is my world as well and has been for a very long time, and I am a convert from agnosticism. I do believe my conversion is/was genuine, but certainly not yet complete. This worldview is not exclusive to atheists/agnostics.
 
You don’t know that you are absolved from anything, and that you prefer to see religion as a fairy tale only tells me that you would prefer to see it as a fairy tale. Its always going to be emotionally rewarding to reject or escape something that you perceive as a fret to your desired lifestyle, but that doesn’t really tell me much.
I’m pretty sure you mean ‘threat’, not ‘fret’, but actually, yes, religion is a threat to life and liberty, as was amply demonstrated on September 11, 2001, and which is continually demonstrated by the interference of supernaturalist irrationality in human endeavour, even to the complete denial of many human inclinations and needs. As soon as you start believing that the claims of imaginary beings are worth more than the claims of flesh-and-blood humans (and other animals, at that), then you become dangerous to the flourishing of life and liberty. Assert all you like that Islam, for example, is different to Christianity, but all monotheistic faiths are cut from the same mould.
If a person takes crack and tells me that they are happy because of it, that’s fine, but that does not change the fact that their emotional reward has no real substance worth pursuing. You would prefer to believe, without evidence, that you ultimately live in a meaningless nonsensical reality, living a life that ultimately has no more moral value than human excrement, and is going to crease to exist. While believing that, you choose to indulge in fantasies about your value as a person; and you do this because you think the emotional reward is a better pay off than being a servant of God.
I have certainly found it so. And ultimately, I am in a less precarious position than you, as a believer in fundamentally undemonstrable supernatural religion. I am not basing my life on something that is very likely a fantasy, but on what I can see (and otherwise experience) is actually the case. Lack of belief in gods has no directly negative physical consequences in the way that smoking crack does; and my value as a person is precisely what I choose to make it. That goes for anyone - if I treat my fellow beings as valuable, then they have value, to me. That is all the basis required for moral behaviour, after all. I don’t need a god standing over me with promises of fire and brimstone (or the more modernity-friendly interpretation of ‘banishment from the presence of God’) in order to feel motivated to treat my fellow beings as I would like to be treated.
As for the “intellectual reward”, this is purely imaginary on your part, lacking any real objectivity.
And nor does it need ‘real’ objectivity. My feelings of satisfaction are purely subjective, but no less real for being so. I am a subjective being, after all.
There is no intellectual substance to atheism. Metaphysical naturalism has never made any positive inferences that back its claim. All I see from metaphysical naturalists is an irrational degree of scepticism toward anything that stands in the way of atheism.
Those are very big claims. Got anything to back them up? What intellectual substance does theism have that atheism lacks, after all? One needs to know about philosophical claims in order to effectively refute them. Seems to me that if you can defer to a god who ultimately explains everything, then you don’t actually have or even need an explanation for anything in particular - you can just say ‘goddidit’ and obviate the need for further investigation, right? Just because you don’t believe anything is possible without your particular version of god, doesn’t mean this is really the case, after all. Atheism at the very least opens the avenues of inquiry!
Your atheism is clearly reactionary and biased, which is the same thing you claim religion to be.
Oh, please - as if religious belief is not reactionary and biased! Humans, in past ages, found themselves at the mercy of an indifferent natural world, yet still with a certain power to influence things in that world; they reacted to their comparative insignificance by developing a bias that told them they were ‘chosen’ by beings more powerful than themselves. Show me this is not the case, if it isn’t. Yes, I freely acknowledge that much of my present belief system is the result of seeing the errors inherent in my religious upbringing, and also how limiting religious belief can be to human endeavour and understanding of the world. But reactionary bias is only a negative thing if it has negative results - thus far, atheism (and its development into pantheism) has, for me, had nothing but positive and encouraging results, and has most assuredly made my life more interesting.
It is evident to me and any honest person that a metaphysical naturalist has to ignore a large spectrum of human experience in-order to seem remotely valid as a belief system. It evades reality; it is not an intelligible response to reality. Its a hoodwink; and you have fallen for it.
Again with the big claims, with nothing to support them. Why do you insist on dividing reality into two different realms when we don’t even know enough about what really does exist, let alone what we can’t detect? Metaphysical naturalism is nothing more nor less than the belief that reality is all of one kind - that even if we don’t know certain things now, those things are ultimately susceptible to investigation and experience. Supernaturalism has far greater problems, in that it insists upon the existence of things that are, by their very definition, immune from detection or investigation, even understanding. It seems to me that if you need to resort to such things to create a sense of wonder in your life, then you truly don’t appreciate all that the natural universe has to offer.
 
I’m pretty sure you mean ‘threat’, not ‘fret’, but actually, yes, religion is a threat to life and liberty, as was amply demonstrated on September 11, 2001, and which is continually demonstrated by the interference of supernaturalist irrationality in human endeavour, even to the complete denial of many human inclinations and needs. As soon as you start believing that the claims of imaginary beings are worth more than the claims of flesh-and-blood humans (and other animals, at that), then you become dangerous to the flourishing of life and liberty. Assert all you like that Islam, for example, is different to Christianity, but all monotheistic faiths are cut from the same mould.
O c’mon, this shows right there that your atheism is reactionary and biased as MindOverMatter says. You think that atheists are more rational? Don’t tell me the old reactionary story that atheism had nothing to do with the mass murders of Stalin, and that it all came down to the ‘religion’’ of communism. And to turn to most recent times: Let’s take Mister ‘uber-rational’ Richard Dawkins. His claims that religious upbringing is child abuse are reactionary and dangerous. I would not want to live in a state where Dawkins was the president (or even worse, dictator). You would have massive religious persecution in the name of ‘rationality’ and ‘enlightenment’, in the name of ‘tolerance’ and ‘freedom’.

And no, Catholics don’t fly airplanes into buildings.
 
Those are very big claims. Got anything to back them up? What intellectual substance does theism have that atheism lacks, after all? One needs to know about philosophical claims in order to effectively refute them. Seems to me that if you can defer to a god who ultimately explains everything, then you don’t actually have or even need an explanation for anything in particular - you can just say ‘goddidit’ and obviate the need for further investigation, right? Just because you don’t believe anything is possible without your particular version of god, doesn’t mean this is really the case, after all. Atheism at the very least opens the avenues of inquiry!
Another ridiculous, outdated claim that goes against historical facts, one of the many typical products of simplistic irrational atheist myth. Science was born in a monotheistic culture, with the background that the scientists of the scientific revolution wanted to study the laws of nature that He had had provided as a lawgiver (‘laws of nature’ is thus a religious-inspired term). Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton were all believers and not closet atheists. Maxwell and Farday were as well. So was Mendel, the father of modern genetics – He was a Catholic monk. So was Lemaitre who first proposed the Big Bang – he was a physicist and a Catholic priest.I could go on.

As biochemist, atheist and Nobel Prize winner Melvin Calvin writes in Chemical Evolution (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1969), p. 258: “The fundamental conviction that the universe is ordered is the first and strongest tenet [of science]. As I try to discern the origin of that conviction, I seem to find it in a basic notion discovered 2000 or 3000 years ago enunciated first in the Western world by the ancient Hebrews: namely, that the universe is governed by a single God, and is not the product of the whims of many gods, each governing his own province according to his own laws. This monotheistic view seems to be the historical foundation for modern science.”

And where do you think the university system comes from? From a Catholic culture, my friend.

By the way, I am a scientist myself, and as such I am ‘open to the avenues of inquiry’, of course. This includes allegedly ‘dangerous’ topics as the origin of life by natural causes, on which I have written a review for Talkorigins.org, a leading evolution website (it should come up on the first page of you google for origin of life):

talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/originoflife.html
 
Assert all you like that Islam, for example, is different to Christianity, but all monotheistic faiths are cut from the same mould.
Comparing the radical Islam of September 11 with enlightened modern Catholicism is typical for dangerously simplistic, irrational atheist thinking. Just keep digging your own hole my friend.
 
Comparing the radical Islam of September 11 with enlightened modern Catholicism is typical for dangerously simplistic, irrational atheist thinking. Just keep digging your own hole my friend.
There is a not inconsiderable truth to the notion that the moderate acceptance of supernatural claims lends credence to the more extreme interpretation of faith in such claims. Moderate belief in the precedence of God’s will allows for extreme belief in the precedence of God’s will, no?

What’s more, how - on the basis of such evidence as we have to hand regarding God’s will - can one distinguish between what God really wills and what humans only suppose that God wills? The Bible itself furnishes us with numerous examples of genocidal extremism, after all…
 
Another ridiculous, outdated claim that goes against historical facts, one of the many typical products of simplistic irrational atheist myth. Science was born in a monotheistic culture, with the background that the scientists of the scientific revolution wanted to study the laws of nature that He had had provided as a lawgiver (‘laws of nature’ is thus a religious-inspired term). Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton were all believers and not closet atheists. Maxwell and Farday were as well. So was Mendel, the father of modern genetics – He was a Catholic monk. So was Lemaitre who first proposed the Big Bang – he was a physicist and a Catholic priest.I could go on.

As biochemist, atheist and Nobel Prize winner Melvin Calvin writes in Chemical Evolution (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1969), p. 258: “The fundamental conviction that the universe is ordered is the first and strongest tenet [of science]. As I try to discern the origin of that conviction, I seem to find it in a basic notion discovered 2000 or 3000 years ago enunciated first in the Western world by the ancient Hebrews: namely, that the universe is governed by a single God, and is not the product of the whims of many gods, each governing his own province according to his own laws. This monotheistic view seems to be the historical foundation for modern science.”

And where do you think the university system comes from? From a Catholic culture, my friend.

By the way, I am a scientist myself, and as such I am ‘open to the avenues of inquiry’, of course. This includes allegedly ‘dangerous’ topics as the origin of life by natural causes, on which I have written a review for Talkorigins.org, a leading evolution website (it should come up on the first page of you google for origin of life):

talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/originoflife.html
You do realise, of course, that elementary assumptions open the way to further enquiry, right? Only the lack of belief in gods - and some intentional order on the part of those gods - allows for the fullest exploration of possibility.

Of course the university system was developed under Catholic auspices - it was the dominant economic and cultural power in its day, and the universities were established as training grounds for Catholic clergy. Does the Catholic church really have any right to take credit for their development beyond these limits? Or for the fact that eminent scientists took the only available avenue - in their day - for advanced education?

How do you reconcile the processes of evolution with belief in a benevolent, all-powerful, all-knowing god, anyway?
 
O c’mon, this shows right there that your atheism is reactionary and biased as MindOverMatter says. You think that atheists are more rational? Don’t tell me the old reactionary story that atheism had nothing to do with the mass murders of Stalin, and that it all came down to the ‘religion’’ of communism. And to turn to most recent times: Let’s take Mister ‘uber-rational’ Richard Dawkins. His claims that religious upbringing is child abuse are reactionary and dangerous. I would not want to live in a state where Dawkins was the president (or even worse, dictator). You would have massive religious persecution in the name of ‘rationality’ and ‘enlightenment’, in the name of ‘tolerance’ and ‘freedom’.

And no, Catholics don’t fly airplanes into buildings.
No, Catholics are only known for their historical tendency to burn people who deviate from the straight-and-narrow path of the one “true” dogma.

How do you suppose that indoctrinating children before they are capable of rational thought is not a form of abuse? You do realise that the primary determining factor in religious belief is the religious belief of one’s parents, right?

And it’s quite extraordinary that you so summarily dismiss the regimes of Stalin - and by implication, Hitler - as purely atheistic. They tapped in to the tendency of people to believe in an all-encompassing power greater than themselves - a tendency imparted by religion. Do you really think that if people had not previously been conditioned to look up to a deified individual (like God, or Jesus) that they would have readily focussed their adoration upon Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Kim Jong Il (and now his son)?
 
And it’s quite extraordinary that you so summarily dismiss the regimes of Stalin - and by implication, Hitler - as purely atheistic. They tapped in to the tendency of people to believe in an all-encompassing power greater than themselves - a tendency imparted by religion. Do you really think that if people had not previously been conditioned to look up to a deified individual (like God, or Jesus) that they would have readily focussed their adoration upon Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Kim Jong Il (and now his son)?
Very true, but one more thing needs to be said. It is simply hilariously hypocritical that some wish to blame atheism (as ideology) for the acts of Stalin and his ilk - as if atheism would logically lead to such atrocities; and at the same time wish to whitewash the actions of the Inquisition by saying that those were the errors of some individuals, and had nothing to do with the ideology of catholicism. Actually the exact opposite is true. The acts of the Inquisition were the direct derivative of their faith, they were committed because the inquisitors were devout catholics.
 
There is a not inconsiderable truth to the notion that the moderate acceptance of supernatural claims lends credence to the more extreme interpretation of faith in such claims.
So what?

Metaphysical naturalism can lead to the inference of nihilism or the rejection of moral-realism, and a system of oppression can develop as an ideological consequence of people believing that metaphysical naturalism is true. If somebody thinks that there is nothing truly wrong with any action, than obviously that can lead quite literally to an indifference towards peoples suffering since any notion that you should not, or ought not to, or that one should make sacrifices, or should have tolerance or virtue, or should feel guilty or empathy towards your fellow human being, is an emotional delusion. There is no rational reason beyond the point of absolute naturalism to view any being as valuable accept in terms of utility. Thankfully most atheists take right and wrong (moral truth) for granted and in general seem to be quite good at identifying it accept in cases were the intense pleasures of sexuality is involved. Surprise Surprise.

Now obviously evil doesn’t necessarily happen if somebody is an atheist (since an atheist can entertain moral fantasies and imagine that they are some how “good” according to their “tastes” despite the implications of their ideology); but in the same respect neither does it follow necessarily from Christianity that evil will befall the world. The fact that religion can be used as a means to institutionalise immoral behaviour, is no more a valid argument against Christianity any-more than it is a valid argument to claim that just because a person is an atheist that such a person should not hold a prominent place in government.

In reality you have an irrational fear against Christianity; when in fact you should fear human beings in general since they are the ones that abuse beliefs and ideologies. You are making fallacious arguments and a straw-man of religion. If you were not hiding from the truth, if your beliefs were rational as opposed to just being the biggest assertion ever made in world history, why would you make such a deceptive argument? Not to mention that given your system of thought any inference towards the immorality of Christianity is purely dictated according to, and is a manifestation of, your “tastes” as opposed to being true knowledge of a moral truth that you have rationally inferred.

If you are going to say that something is “truly wrong”, you have to present a rational reason why other people should think that; otherwise you are just appealing to peoples tastes. Appealing to the tastes and the utility values of others will never amount to a rational or valid argument in the context of “Moral Mruth”; and “Moral Truth” is of course what we should all be seeking as a human race if we really care about what is right and what is wrong.
 
“Moral Mruth:D, sorry for the embarrassing spelling mistake!!!😊
 
There is a not inconsiderable truth to the notion that the moderate acceptance of supernatural claims lends credence to the more extreme interpretation of faith in such claims. Moderate belief in the precedence of God’s will allows for extreme belief in the precedence of God’s will, no?
Aah, I see you uncritically have taken this page verbatim from Richard Dawkins’ playbook. So much for independent critical thinking. You seem to endorse every cr*p that comes your way from the New Atheists.
 
You do realise, of course, that elementary assumptions open the way to further enquiry, right? Only the lack of belief in gods - and some intentional order on the part of those gods - allows for the fullest exploration of possibility.
Really? How so?
How do you reconcile the processes of evolution with belief in a benevolent, all-powerful, all-knowing god, anyway?
Easily.
 
How do you suppose that indoctrinating children before they are capable of rational thought is not a form of abuse? You do realise that the primary determining factor in religious belief is the religious belief of one’s parents, right?
How do you suppose that indoctrinating children in the idea that religious faith is irrational, and that atheistic ‘rationalism’ is true rationality, before they are capable of rational thought is not a form of abuse?

Because such indoctrination will happen. I don’t believe for one moment that people like Dawkins and those who endorse his views would simply say nothing to their children until they are of rational age and then let them decide for themselves in a completely neutral manner. To think that this may happen is utmost naivete.
 
Because such indoctrination will happen. I don’t believe for one moment that people like Dawkins and those who endorse his views would simply say nothing to their children until they are of rational age and then let them decide for themselves in a completely neutral manner. To think that this may happen is utmost naivete.
👍
 
Very true, but one more thing needs to be said. It is simply hilariously hypocritical that some wish to blame atheism (as ideology) for the acts of Stalin and his ilk - as if atheism would logically lead to such atrocities; and at the same time wish to whitewash the actions of the Inquisition by saying that those were the errors of some individuals, and had nothing to do with the ideology of catholicism. Actually the exact opposite is true. The acts of the Inquisition were the direct derivative of their faith, they were committed because the inquisitors were devout catholics.
Yeah right, and the burning of churches and the murder of Russian clergy had nothing to do with Soviet atheism. Oh, I forgot, these were just political enemes of opportunity, and had to be extinguished purely for political reasons … Silly excuses and silly naivete.

Like you, Dawkins makes the crucial analytical mistake of comparing theism in practice with atheism in theory. He has been rightfully castigated for that – also by fellow atheists.

See for example:

nybooks.com/articles/archives/2007/jan/11/a-mission-to-convert/?pagination=false
 
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