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Sam_777
Guest
Between (600CE-800CE) what did the Popes or the Churches say about Muhammed or Islam?
What early Popes during 7th/8th century said about Muhammed/Islam.
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Eucharisted
Guest
When Muslims began conquering nations under Mohammed, they were regarded as followers of the antichrist (Mohammed being the antichrist), since they denied the Divinity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.
Muslims were powerful fighters, and since People of the Book had a choice of “convert or die”, their numbers grew. They hit hard and conquered fast, and non-Muslims were subject to second-class status. This further fueled the idea that Mohammed was the antichrist by some Christians.
Mohammed was also regarded as a heretic, as many Christians believed that he was once a member of th Church. Whether or not this is true, I don’t know, but he did borrow many elements from Christianity, so it would seem to many Christians that he was denying a number of truths professed by the Church.
Muslims were powerful fighters, and since People of the Book had a choice of “convert or die”, their numbers grew. They hit hard and conquered fast, and non-Muslims were subject to second-class status. This further fueled the idea that Mohammed was the antichrist by some Christians.
Mohammed was also regarded as a heretic, as many Christians believed that he was once a member of th Church. Whether or not this is true, I don’t know, but he did borrow many elements from Christianity, so it would seem to many Christians that he was denying a number of truths professed by the Church.
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Sam_777
Guest
Thanks Eucharisted, actually I’m looking for direct statements from the Popes during that era, since I believe their statements are guided through the Holy Spirit.
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elwill
Guest
read this story , may be you never read it before
One night the Moslems met Prophet of Allah, Muhammad (saw). He was sad to hear that the Moslems were suffering from torture. So, he said to them:
There’s a just King in Habasha (Ethiopia). Immigrate to his country. Stay there till Allah drives away your worries.
The idea of immigration shone in the believers’ hearts as the sun shone to fill the earth with light and warmth.
our Master Prophet of Allah, Muhammad (saw) ordered his cousin Ja’far to lead a big group of Moslems to Habasha.
One day, the Quraishi leaders held a meeting in Darul Nadwa. They were thinking about a way to extinguish the light of Islam. Umayyah said:
[Abu Sufyan said:
[COLOR=“darkred”]what shall we do for those who escape from Makkah and go to Habasha?
Abu Jahal said:
We’ll bring them back.
How?
We’ll send our friend al-Najashy lots of gifts. So, he’ll accept our request.
Who will go?
We’ll send a clever man to negotiate with al-Najashy.
After several weeks, they decided to send a delegation to bring back the runaway persons.
In the morning, Amru bin al-*** and Amarah bin al-Waleed headed for the sea holding gifts to al-Najashy, the King of Habasha.
The delegates crossed the sea with a ship. They reached the land of Habasha. They came to the King’s palace.
Amru bin al-*** said to the guards of the palace:
We’re the Quraishi delegates holding gifts to the King.
Al-Najashy greeted the delegates and accepted the gifts of the Quraish. The priests received their gifts, too. The King asked them about the purpose of their visit.
The delegates said:
Some foolish persons have taken refuge in the land of Habasha. They’ve abandoned their fathers’ and grandfathers’ religion. They haven’t accepted the King’s religion. Rather; they’ve brought a new religion. Neither you nor we have known it. We, the Quraishi noblemen, have come to bring them back and to educate them.
The King of Habasha was just and wise man. So, he said:
How can I hand you the people who have chosen my country and asked me for help? But I’ll ask them some questions. If their thoughts are corrupt; if they are deviated, I’d hand them to you. Otherwise, I’d leave them to live in my country.
Al-Najashy sent for the immigrants. They came. Ja’far bin Abu Talib was in advance. They came into the palace and stood in front of the King.
The Habashian people bowed when they met the King. So the Habashian and the delegates bowed to the King. The Moslems did not bow; their heads remained high raised.
Al-Najashy asked the Moslems:
Why don’t you bow to me?
Ja’far answered:
We don’t bow to anyone but Allah.
The King said:
What do you mean?
Ja’far answered:
Your Majesty; the King, Allah has sent us an Apostle. The Apostle has ordered us not to bow to anyone but Allah. He has also ordered us to pray and to pay zakat.
Amru bin al-*** said evilly:
They’re breaking the King’s religion!
Al-Najashy asked him to keep silent; and asked Ja’far to go on. Ja’far politely said:
Your Majesty, the King, we were ignorant people. We worshipped the idols. We ate dead animals. We did bad actions and abandoned our relatives. We mistreated our neighbors. The strong oppressed the weak. So Allah has sent us an Apostle. We know his ancestors and his truthfulness. We know that he is pure and trustworthy So, he has invited us to worship the Only Allah. He has ordered us to avoid what we and our fathers had worshipped. He has ordered us to be truthful and to give the trusts to their owners. He has ordered us to visit our relatives, to be good neighbors, to stop bad actions and shedding blood. He has prevented us from atrocities, falsehood taking the orphan’s money and speaking evil of the married women. He has ordered us to worship Allah only and not to be polytheists. He has ordered us to pray, to give alms, and to fast.
Your majesty; the king, we’ve believed him and followed what he has brought from Allah. So, we’ve worshipped Allah only - we’re not polytheists.
But our people have aggressed against us. They’ve tortured us. They’ve prevented us from our religion to worship the idols again.
After they had persecuted us, we came to your country. We’ve preferred you to others. We want to live in your country. Thus, your majesty, the king, we ask you to treat us justly.
Al-Najashy said politely:
Have you anything of what your Prophet has brought?
Ja’far politely said:
One night the Moslems met Prophet of Allah, Muhammad (saw). He was sad to hear that the Moslems were suffering from torture. So, he said to them:
There’s a just King in Habasha (Ethiopia). Immigrate to his country. Stay there till Allah drives away your worries.
The idea of immigration shone in the believers’ hearts as the sun shone to fill the earth with light and warmth.
our Master Prophet of Allah, Muhammad (saw) ordered his cousin Ja’far to lead a big group of Moslems to Habasha.
One day, the Quraishi leaders held a meeting in Darul Nadwa. They were thinking about a way to extinguish the light of Islam. Umayyah said:
[Abu Sufyan said:
[COLOR=“darkred”]what shall we do for those who escape from Makkah and go to Habasha?
Abu Jahal said:
We’ll bring them back.
How?
We’ll send our friend al-Najashy lots of gifts. So, he’ll accept our request.
Who will go?
We’ll send a clever man to negotiate with al-Najashy.
After several weeks, they decided to send a delegation to bring back the runaway persons.
In the morning, Amru bin al-*** and Amarah bin al-Waleed headed for the sea holding gifts to al-Najashy, the King of Habasha.
The delegates crossed the sea with a ship. They reached the land of Habasha. They came to the King’s palace.
Amru bin al-*** said to the guards of the palace:
We’re the Quraishi delegates holding gifts to the King.
Al-Najashy greeted the delegates and accepted the gifts of the Quraish. The priests received their gifts, too. The King asked them about the purpose of their visit.
The delegates said:
Some foolish persons have taken refuge in the land of Habasha. They’ve abandoned their fathers’ and grandfathers’ religion. They haven’t accepted the King’s religion. Rather; they’ve brought a new religion. Neither you nor we have known it. We, the Quraishi noblemen, have come to bring them back and to educate them.
The King of Habasha was just and wise man. So, he said:
How can I hand you the people who have chosen my country and asked me for help? But I’ll ask them some questions. If their thoughts are corrupt; if they are deviated, I’d hand them to you. Otherwise, I’d leave them to live in my country.
Al-Najashy sent for the immigrants. They came. Ja’far bin Abu Talib was in advance. They came into the palace and stood in front of the King.
The Habashian people bowed when they met the King. So the Habashian and the delegates bowed to the King. The Moslems did not bow; their heads remained high raised.
Al-Najashy asked the Moslems:
Why don’t you bow to me?
Ja’far answered:
We don’t bow to anyone but Allah.
The King said:
What do you mean?
Ja’far answered:
Your Majesty; the King, Allah has sent us an Apostle. The Apostle has ordered us not to bow to anyone but Allah. He has also ordered us to pray and to pay zakat.
Amru bin al-*** said evilly:
They’re breaking the King’s religion!
Al-Najashy asked him to keep silent; and asked Ja’far to go on. Ja’far politely said:
Your Majesty, the King, we were ignorant people. We worshipped the idols. We ate dead animals. We did bad actions and abandoned our relatives. We mistreated our neighbors. The strong oppressed the weak. So Allah has sent us an Apostle. We know his ancestors and his truthfulness. We know that he is pure and trustworthy So, he has invited us to worship the Only Allah. He has ordered us to avoid what we and our fathers had worshipped. He has ordered us to be truthful and to give the trusts to their owners. He has ordered us to visit our relatives, to be good neighbors, to stop bad actions and shedding blood. He has prevented us from atrocities, falsehood taking the orphan’s money and speaking evil of the married women. He has ordered us to worship Allah only and not to be polytheists. He has ordered us to pray, to give alms, and to fast.
Your majesty; the king, we’ve believed him and followed what he has brought from Allah. So, we’ve worshipped Allah only - we’re not polytheists.
But our people have aggressed against us. They’ve tortured us. They’ve prevented us from our religion to worship the idols again.
After they had persecuted us, we came to your country. We’ve preferred you to others. We want to live in your country. Thus, your majesty, the king, we ask you to treat us justly.
Al-Najashy said politely:
Have you anything of what your Prophet has brought?
Ja’far politely said:
Yes.
–
continue
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Cluny
Guest
FWIW, no less a doctor of the Church than St. John of Damascus, who worked in the court of a Moslem ruler, believed Islam to be a heretical sect of Christianity.
Of course, since Mohamed was a pedophile, what do you expect?
Of course, since Mohamed was a pedophile, what do you expect?
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elwill
Guest
Al-Najashy said:
Read me something.
Ja’far began reading some verses of the Chapter of Mary (Maryam) from Holy Qur’an (16-23:19), that speak of Maryam, Jesus, Yahiah and Zacharia (peace be upon them):
And mention Maryam in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place. So, she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man. She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent God, if you are one guarding (against evil). He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy. She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? He said: Even so; your lord says: It is easy to me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from us; and it is a matter which has been decreed. So, she conceived him; then withdrew herself with a remote place and the throes (of childbirth) compelled her to take herself to the trunk of a palm tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten! Then (the child called out to her from beneath her): Grieve not, surely your lord has made a stream to flow beneath you. And shake towards you the trunk of the palm tree, it will drop on you fresh ripe dates. So, eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent God, so I shall not speak to any man today and she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said: O Maryam! Surely you have done a strange thing. O Sister of Haroon! Your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother an unchaste woman.
Al-Najashy wept. His tears flowed on his cheeks. The priests and the monks wept humbly, too. Ja’far’s voice was flowing humbly:
But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle? He said: Surely I am Allah’s servant; he has given me the Book and made me a prophet, and has made me blessed wherever I may be, and he has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live and dutiful to my mother; and he has not made me insolent, unblessed and peace be on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.
Al-Najashy stood up for Allah’s Words and said humbly:
Certainly this and what Jesus (Isa) had brought come out of one niche.
He turned to the Quraishi delegates and said angrily:
I won’t hand them to you and I’ll defend them.
Then he ordered his soldiers to dismiss the delegation and to return the gifts to them. He said:
They are bribes. I don’t want to be bribed.
He turned to Ja’far and his Moslem group and said:
You’re welcome; Your Prophet is welcome. I admit that he is the Apostle whom Isa bin Maryam had given good news about. Live wherever you like in my country.
Al-Najashy wanted to know something about the manners of Islam. He asked Ja’far:
How do you greet each other?
Our greeting is to say Assalamu Alaikum.
On the following day Amru bin al-*** and Amarah decided to go to the King’s Palace.
On their way, Amru bin al-*** said to Amarah:
This time, I,ll get my revenge on Ja’far. I’ll tell the kings that the Moslems have another idea about Isa.
Again the delegates came to al-Najashy and said:
Your majesty; the king, the Moslems say that Isa is a slave.
Al-Najashy kept silent for a while then he said to the guard:
Go to Ja’far to hear his point of viewJa’far came and greeted the King and said:
Assalamu Alaikum.
The King asked him:
What’s your point of view about Isa?
Ja’far answered calmly:
We say as Allah and His Apostle have said about him.
The King asked him:
What’s your Prophet said?
Ja’far answered calmly:
He’s Allah’s slave, His Apostle, His Spirit, His Word that He has given to the chaste, virgin Maryam.
Al-Najashy kept silent for a while, and then he drew a line on the ground with his stick.
So, he said:
Go to your friends. You’re safe in my country.
Read me something.
Ja’far began reading some verses of the Chapter of Mary (Maryam) from Holy Qur’an (16-23:19), that speak of Maryam, Jesus, Yahiah and Zacharia (peace be upon them):
And mention Maryam in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place. So, she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man. She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent God, if you are one guarding (against evil). He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy. She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? He said: Even so; your lord says: It is easy to me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from us; and it is a matter which has been decreed. So, she conceived him; then withdrew herself with a remote place and the throes (of childbirth) compelled her to take herself to the trunk of a palm tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten! Then (the child called out to her from beneath her): Grieve not, surely your lord has made a stream to flow beneath you. And shake towards you the trunk of the palm tree, it will drop on you fresh ripe dates. So, eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent God, so I shall not speak to any man today and she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said: O Maryam! Surely you have done a strange thing. O Sister of Haroon! Your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother an unchaste woman.
Al-Najashy wept. His tears flowed on his cheeks. The priests and the monks wept humbly, too. Ja’far’s voice was flowing humbly:
But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle? He said: Surely I am Allah’s servant; he has given me the Book and made me a prophet, and has made me blessed wherever I may be, and he has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live and dutiful to my mother; and he has not made me insolent, unblessed and peace be on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.
Al-Najashy stood up for Allah’s Words and said humbly:
Certainly this and what Jesus (Isa) had brought come out of one niche.
He turned to the Quraishi delegates and said angrily:
I won’t hand them to you and I’ll defend them.
Then he ordered his soldiers to dismiss the delegation and to return the gifts to them. He said:
They are bribes. I don’t want to be bribed.
He turned to Ja’far and his Moslem group and said:
You’re welcome; Your Prophet is welcome. I admit that he is the Apostle whom Isa bin Maryam had given good news about. Live wherever you like in my country.
Al-Najashy wanted to know something about the manners of Islam. He asked Ja’far:
How do you greet each other?
Our greeting is to say Assalamu Alaikum.
On the following day Amru bin al-*** and Amarah decided to go to the King’s Palace.
On their way, Amru bin al-*** said to Amarah:
This time, I,ll get my revenge on Ja’far. I’ll tell the kings that the Moslems have another idea about Isa.
Again the delegates came to al-Najashy and said:
Your majesty; the king, the Moslems say that Isa is a slave.
Al-Najashy kept silent for a while then he said to the guard:
Go to Ja’far to hear his point of viewJa’far came and greeted the King and said:
Assalamu Alaikum.
The King asked him:
What’s your point of view about Isa?
Ja’far answered calmly:
We say as Allah and His Apostle have said about him.
The King asked him:
What’s your Prophet said?
Ja’far answered calmly:
He’s Allah’s slave, His Apostle, His Spirit, His Word that He has given to the chaste, virgin Maryam.
Al-Najashy kept silent for a while, and then he drew a line on the ground with his stick.
So, he said:
Go to your friends. You’re safe in my country.
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Eucharisted
Guest
I tried to find something, but I couldn’t. Sorry
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Sam_777
Guest
Thank you Eucharisted for your efforts :hug1:, I know its hard to find old scriptures online.I tried to find something, but I couldn’t. Sorry
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Sam_777
Guest
Yes, I’m aware of it, but **Al-Najashy **is not the Pope nor his Church is mentioned in this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes).
No, NOT Jesus, the authentic hadith says Moses: “ إن هذا والله والذي جاء به موسى ليخرج من مشكاة واحدة” “that and what Moses brought are coming from the same source”.
No, this is exactly what the authentic hadith says:
On the next day, someone told Najashi that Muslims say some serious things against Jesus, then Najashi called them again and asked them what they say about Jesus, they said he is the slave of Allah and his messenger and his spirit and his word to Virgin Mary, then Najashi hit the ground by his fist and he griped a stick and said “except Jesus you didn’t say this stick” (i.e., referring that what you said in the previous day is true expect the information about Jesus which is the backbone (the stick) is not true).
قال لهم ما تقولون في عيسى ابن مريم فقال له جعفر بن أبي طالب نقول فيه الذي جاء به نبينا هو عبد الله ورسوله وروحه وكلمته ألقاها إلى مريم العذراء البتول قالت فضرب النجاشي يده إلى الأرض فأخذ منها عودا ثم قال ما عدا عيسى ابن مريم ما قلت هذا العود
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Eucharisted
Guest
:hug1: :hug1: :hug1: :hug1: :hug1: :hug1: :hug1:
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morning_star777
Guest
Good thread Sam.And now I want to know about our present days popes(between 1900-2009).What did they say about Islam and Muhammed?can anybody answer me?
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Sam_777
Guest
The only one that I’ve found online is the 14’th century view of the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus:
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
Source.
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sedonaman
Guest
St. John of Damascuss Critique of Islam. He lived from 676-749 AD.
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dolphinlove
Guest
Well, we have all seen what happened when Pope Benedict made a comment.
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morning_star777
Guest
Yes dear sister dolphy,we have seen the reaction of Muslims.So next time should we compromise with muslims always?Should we let them bash our religion,and in return we even can not criticize them.Because they are violent and who do not fear violence?But I think if we will have to compromise with them in every case for the sake of human rights or politeness,then it will be our week point.How many christian think that in the way?
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morning_star777
Guest
Hail the popes of 7th/8th century.hail their spirit.
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Schnitz
Guest
I don’t have any recollect of where I pulled this off of, but I found it to be interesting…
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Sam_777
Guest
So what, the truth should be told no matter what…
Thanks sedonaman.
Schnitz, you got that online?
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SalomeBintullah
Guest
I don’t have any popes for you, but here’s St. Thomas Aquinas on Reasons for the Faith against Muslim Objections. It’s more a defense of Catholicism against Muslim objections than a critique of Islam itself.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
He was not a paedophile. - unless every Christian who married very young was a paedophile. Richard II (b.1367; r.1377-99; d.1400 ?) had a child bride - there was nothing unusual about this. It was not a practice confined to royal courts. It was not so very unusual for children to have marriages arranged for them; we are not talking about the “romantic” type of marriage, in which two consenting adults wed one another voluntarily, but of unions which were as much business arrangements as anything else. The age of majority was earlier at some point in the Middle Ages than it later became; at least in the UK, it eventually rose to 21, and about 40 years ago was lowered to 18. Marriage has been many things in different times & places - “handfasting” would today be regarded as fornication, but it was not so considered in 16th-century Scotland. The definition of marriage has been as much by the enactments of ecclesiastical law as by more clearly moral or theological considerations. So whatever other criticisms may be justly made of Mohammed, criticising him for having a child bride is not one of them; unless we are prepared to call a lot of Christian marriages paedophile acts; for by our standards, today, they would be; but not necessarily by the standards of the times in which they occurred.
If Mohammed’s credibility is dependent on his not being a paedophile, or on his not being sexually sinful, that shoots to pieces the credibility of quite a few Catholic clergy: clerical incontinence has been a constant problem in the RCC for centuries, & still is. As for recent events of that sort, the less said about them, the better.BTW,*** if*** a Pope had been caught marrying a very young girl, there would be no end of denials that the Papacy or the Church was morally compromised; another favourite response is that the Church’s credibility is not destroyed by the sins of any of its members, & that therefore, its message is still credible. Why is this reasoning not valid for others - such as Mohammed ?*** If*** he is a true prophet, then his personal failings can’t alter the authenticity of his vocation or of his message; they can obscure his credibility, but not destroy the validity of the message. If the message is not true, the argument based on his failings is not a good one to deploy: it proves too much, by disqualifying the Catholic message too.
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