What effects the change in the bread and wine?

[AWall]

Another question…

What makes the bread and wine turn into the body and blood of the Lord? I believe that they do change. But I thought the priest was the instrument through which the Lord works that makes it happen.

Anyway, I was told today that it’s everyone working together in community that makes it happen-through our prayers and songs and words. We’re all as equally important as the priest. I asked for clarification b/c I’m in RCIA, and he responded basically, that “I don’t know what you’re being taught in RCIA, but we’ll just go on and you sit with it a while.” Then he broke out into a little ditty of RCIA to the tune of YMCA by the Village People.

I am perfectly willing to believe I misunderstood what he was saying. Could someone please help? I’m going to try and find something in the Catechism.

Thank you.

Andrea

 

[jpjd]

I don’t think the Church has p(name removed by moderator)ointed the exact second that the change takes place, but it’s during the part when the priest says, “…this is my body…this is my blood…”

It is definitely the priest that effects the change, not us parishoners with our prayers and hymns.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

AWall:

Another question…

What makes the bread and wine turn into the body and blood of the Lord? I believe that they do change. But I thought the priest was the instrument through which the Lord works that makes it happen.

He is one instrument, certainly. The agent is Christ by Whose Spirit the Eucharist comes about as a result of the instrumental action - in different ways - of the priest, and of the rest of the Church.​

Ultimately, it does not make sense to try to say of any one individual in the Church, “X alone does this”, because the Church is a society, therefore, the contribution of the rest of the Church can never be overlooked. The laity do not, and cannot, do what the priest does in consecrating the Eucharist - but they contribute to the consecratory action by virtue of the fact that the consecration (which is not found in all Catholic liturgies, BTW ) is not the sole element in the Eucharistic prayer. The theology of Christian worship is a finely-balanced harmony of related and complementary details, which is not self-contained, but part of the theology of the Incarnation and the Church. ##

Anyway, I was told today that it’s everyone working together in community that makes it happen-through our prayers and songs and words. We’re all as equally important as the priest.

That is perfectly true.​

The congregation has a different function from the priest’s within the liturgical action - neither is more important than the other: they have complementary parts to enact in the action of the Eucharist: the priest has his, deacons, servers, readers, and other ministers have theirs; the congregation have theirs.

All play a part in the one action of Christ the Priest, Who is the Real Minister of all the sacraments, and of all the worship of the Church, since He cannot be divided from His own Body or from its parts. And this activity is enacted on earth by the entire worshipping Church, who have received the Spirit of Christ and His Father for that purpose among others: the rendering of worship to God which will be truly that of Christ, of His members as a communion, and of each individual person in that communion.

Which is why the one Priesthood of Christ is that of all His members, in different ways. And this priesthood is an element in the vocation of all Christians to Christ and By Christ And for Christ: all have that vocation in common, and within that common vocation each has his own: some to be members of the clergy, others to be religious in the technical sense, others to other states of life, whether marriage; or to other occupations. ##

I asked for clarification b/c I’m in RCIA, and he responded basically, that “I don’t know what you’re being taught in RCIA, but we’ll just go on and you sit with it a while.” Then he broke out into a little ditty of RCIA to the tune of YMCA by the Village People.

I am perfectly willing to believe I misunderstood what he was saying. Could someone please help? I’m going to try and find something in the Catechism.

Thank you.

Andrea

 

[Archbishop]

It is the Holy Spirit coming upon the gifts that effects the change. While everyone has their parts in the liturgy (the work of the people), it is the Holy Spirit of Christ himself overshadowing the bread and wine through the instrument of the priest that makes the change. It is in the epiclesis or the calling down of the Spirit that the change happens according to many theologians. There is debate over the exact moment of time but there can be no debate that it is the Holy Spirit of Christ himself who makes the change.

 

[AWall]

Thank you, I really appreciate the explanations. I think I was just misunderstanding what he was saying. I got a lot of information today, some of it confusing! I think I’m starting to see what he was trying to explain!

Andrea

 

[tjmiller]

What changes the bread and wine into Christ’s Body and Blood?
Instrumentally, the words of consecration - the teaching of the Church is that those words pronounced by the priest in the Narrative of Institution “effect what they signify” (Council of Trent).

 

[Pax]

As stated by others…the change is accomplished by the work of the Holy Spirit. Please note one more very important thing. The priest does not use his own words. The priest as celebrant of Jesus Christ’s memorial sacrifice says the words of Jesus…“This is my body, this is my blood.”

 

[SnorterLuster]

Anyway, I was told today that it’s everyone working together in community that makes it happen-through our prayers and songs and words. We’re all as equally important as the priest.

The folks that have answered all know more theology than I do, but the bottom line is: The priest can consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ with absolutely no one except himself present. We in the laity can join into a community, pray until the cows go blind, and we still will not have the Body and Blood of Christ on the altar. No priest, no Body and Blood, period.

 

[Walking_Home]

AWall:

Another question…

Anyway, I was told today that it’s everyone working together in community that makes it happen-through our prayers and songs and words. We’re all as equally important as the priest.

Andrea

Ms. Andrea,

Please double check with the person that told you the above. If indeed you did not misunderstand, and this is what he believes and teaches, this is a kind of abuse that may fall under Graviora Delicta.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/cdw_liturgical_abuses.htm

1. Graviora Delicta. The most grave kind of liturgical abuses are graviora delicta and are reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Each will be treated separated.

b) the attempted celebration of the liturgical action of the Eucharistic Sacrifice or the simulation of the same;[282]

b. The attempted celebration of the liturgical action of the Eucharistic Sacrifice or the simulation of the same.

It is a violation of hierarchial order for any person to assume an office which is not theirs by ordination. To do so is to simulate the exercise of the power attached to that Order. Thus, to hear confessions, anoint the sick with the oil of the sick, concelebrate Mass etc. are among the most serious violations of Catholic discipline. Pertaining to the Eucharist are the following canons:

Canon 1378
2. The following incur an automatic (latae sententiae) penalty of interdict or if a cleric, an automatic (latae sententiae) suspension:
(1) one who has not been promoted to the priestly order and who attempts to enact the liturgical action of the Eucharistic Sacrifice;

Canon 1379
Outside the cases mentioned in can. 1378, one who simulates the administration of a sacrament is to be punished with a just penalty.

---

Anyone, who is leading the laity to believe that they have any part in the consecration, can actually be leading them to commit a grave abuse.

 

[katewithak]

SnorterLuster:

The folks that have answered all know more theology than I do, but the bottom line is: The priest can consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ with absolutely no one except himself present. We in the laity can join into a community, pray until the cows go blind, and we still will not have the Body and Blood of Christ on the altar. No priest, no Body and Blood, period.

Thank you, thank you. We are priveleged and gifted to be there and when the priest, bishop or cardinal desire to include us more fully that is truly a blessing. But absolutely, OUR PRESENCE is simply not required. Thank you for stating what needed to be said.