What else is Traditional?

[IsaacSheen]

Other than the Tridentine Mass (and things inside the Mass such as Altar boys vs Altar servers) what else makes someone a “traditional” Catholic?

 

[JuanCarlos]

no meat on fridays, observing the traditional calendar of fasting, bowing your head at the name of Jesus, having a preference for pre-Vatican II writings and catechisms, etc.

At the extreme, rejection of Papal authority, a desire to enforce liturgical latinizations on other Catholic Churches, condemning everyone who wasn’t explicitly baptized by a Roman Catholic to hell, etc.

 

[scylla]

The extreme would just be more fidelity to Christ. As the Bible specifies we should hold fast to our traditions doing otherwise is just being unfaithful to Catholicism.

An extreme traditionalist would just strongly be faithful to Christ and the traditions of the Church. They would put Christ first before human acceptance.

Rejecting the Pope is just a form of dissent which traditionalists would embrace when they have elevated themselves above the Church, just like those who dissent on the left.

Condemnation, and trying to Latinize other Catholic Churches are exibition of pride which we all have to an extent and exhibit in various ways which we shouldn’t do.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[markadm]

I think we should also add (though it has been said obliquely) deliberately not kow-towing to modernist rubbish in guise of religion.

Though I would like to think that a healthy traditionalist would be able to sift “modernism” and good “new (old) things”.

 

[Dempsey1919]

A traditionalist is someone who adheres to earlier liturgical norms and practices.

Traditionalists have a preference for the Tridentine Mass, follow the older calendar, and have a longer Eucharistic fast prior to the Mass in accordance with an earlier requirement.

Traditionalists will also advocate traditional Catholic spirituality such as the Sacred Heart devotion and the Rosary. They shy away from contemporary spirituality such as the Charismatic movement.

Most traditional Catholics also like the older style of papal and priestly vestments and like it when religious wear the habit.

As has been said, many traditionalists also keep the earlier penitential rule of the Church of abstaining from meat on Fridays. All Catholics are required to do some penance on Friday but they have the freedom to decide what it is they will do. In the past, all latin Catholics had to abstain from meat. The Church changed this because it stopped being a penance for most people; they simply began eating fish every Friday. Another reason is because more people became vegetarian, and not eating meat on Friday isn’t a penance for them.

There are some traditionalists who dislike the New Mass and doubt its validity. There is nothing wrong with preferring the Tridentine Mass but it is a sin to doubt the validity of the New Mass. All Catholics must accept both forms of the Mass.

There are other traditionalists who claim that the See of Peter is vacant and that the last five Popes have been false. These are not traditionalists, they are dissenters.

A real traditionalist is a very faithful Catholic who simply prefers the older liturgy and practices, along with traditional Catholic spirituality - nothing more and nothing less.

 

[jfallaw]

I think we should also add (though it has been said obliquely) deliberately not kow-towing to modernist rubbish in guise of religion.

Though I would like to think that a healthy traditionalist would be able to sift “modernism” and good “new (old) things”.

I am trying to find a middle ground. i love traditional catholicism for the most part but believe that Christ didn’t intend for it to be quite so anti- everyone else. He sure wasn’t anti- anyone, just what they did. And He would have gently guided them to the truth, not totally break away in a huff. After all- despite all his condemnation of the Jewish leaders he followed Jewish Law to the T. i believe there is NO salvation outside the Church, except as granted by God for reasons of His choosing, just like the church has always taught and still teaches- only the teaching now centers more on the ‘God’s will’ part than the NO whatsoever part. So i kinda disagree with the old way of condemning everyone to hell, to their face. That certainly will win no converts (not any that I want to hang out with, anyways- i saw enough people like that in the fundamentalist protestant churched i attended, and am no longer attending). i believe VII changed absolutely nothing as far as Canon goes- only peoples’ hearts. Some for the better, some for the worse. I think what is important is to obey the superiors placed over you by the Church unless clearly heretical, and make your case known still, just as Jesus did. They may end up finishing you off, too, but at least you obeyed God til the end and, whether they are good or bad, right or wrong, they are validly ordained priests- ordained by Christ’s church and therefore by Christ Himself. Hope that’s not all too confusing I’m at work, bz bz!

 

[bpbasilphx]

As one sede priest said, we need to remember that charity, forbearance, humility, and not judging others are all traditional, too.

 

[Dempsey1919]

So i kinda disagree with the old way of condemning everyone to hell, to their face. That certainly will win no converts (not any that I want to hang out with, anyways- i saw enough people like that in the fundamentalist protestant churched i attended, and am no longer attending).

My sentiments exactly. If you read many of the old encyclicals you will find that the Church simply condemned the Protestants for breaking away from the Church of God. While the Protestants are wrong, many of today’s protestants were born into their denomination and therefore sincerely believe that they are members of the true church. They do not deserve to be condemned because of their ignorance. The original reformers do deserve to be condemned because they knew exactly what they were doing; they had a full knowledge of Catholic doctrine.

Nowadays, the Church has adopted a more subtle approach to winning converts. Holy Mother Church has adapted the way she presents the faith in order to appeal to modern man. Calling everyone heretics will not win converts in the modern world.

The Church has never changed doctrine. She has only changed the way she presents them. This is what some traditionalists have a problem with.

 

[jfallaw]

Found this on a new friend’s blog and it speaks volumes to me about obedience despite barriers…​

Escriva considered the Mass as the “center and root of the Christian’s interior life,” a terminology which was later used by the Second Vatican Council.

According to Giovanni Battista Cardinal Re, Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops, “St. Josemaría strove with all his strength to make the Eucharist the center of his life…For him, Jesus was not an example to imitate from afar, an abstract moral ideal, but his Jesus, a person we should live alongside continuously.”

The present prelate of Opus Dei Bishop Javier Echevarria Rodriguez said that Escriva strove to follow whatever was indicated by the competent authority regarding the celebration of Mass. When the new rites were adapted by the Catholic Church after Vatican II, Echevarria said that Escriva “accepted the reform with serenity and obedience.” Since his prayer was much integrated with the liturgy for the past 40 years, Escriva found the shift difficult and asked Alvaro del Portillo, one of his assistants, to coach him in celebrating the new rites. He even prohibited del Portillo to ask for any dispensation for him “out of a spirit of obedience to ecclesiastical norms.” However, when Msgr. Bugnini of the Vatican found out about Escriva’s difficulties, he granted Escriva the possibility of celebrating the Mass using the old rite. Escriva celebrated this rite only in private.

From:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josemar%C3%ADa_Escriv%C3%A1#Towards_the_liturgy

 

[TMC]

Just from what I have seen on this board, the principle non-liturgical feature of traditionalism seems to be the rejection of ecumenism and the insistence that only Catholics can be saved (and even then not many of them).

 

[jfallaw]

Just from what I have seen on this board, the principle non-liturgical feature of traditionalism seems to be the rejection of ecumenism and the insistence that only Catholics can be saved (and even then not many of them).

Nowadays, the Church has adopted a more subtle approach to winning converts. Holy Mother Church has adapted the way she presents the faith in order to appeal to modern man. Calling everyone heretics will not win converts in the modern world.

Isn’t that ecumenism? Or do I not understand the definition?

 

[scylla]

Ecuminism is something everyone should be in favor of, for the salvation of their souls and everyone elses
Since we need to always work to help people be converted to Holy Mother Church we need to seek every way to share the faith and give people chances to see that their Salvation depends on being faithful to Christ.

Ecuminism should focus on Christ and on how we best can share Catholicism with others without compromising the faith, or our Catholic identity.

I was reading Unitatis Redintegratio last night, (Vatican II documents are very wordy and good for getting me sleepy)
24. Now that we have briefly set out the conditions for ecumenical action and the principles by which it is to be directed, we look with confidence to the future. This Sacred Council exhorts the faithful to refrain from superficiality and imprudent zeal, which can hinder real progress toward unity. Their ecumenical action must be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is to say, faithful to the truth which we have received from the apostles and Fathers of the Church, in harmony with the faith which the Catholic Church has always professed, and at the same time directed toward that fullness to which Our Lord wills His Body to grow in the course of time.

It seems that many times people in the Church practice a false ecuminism by hiding our Catholic identity and just acting like Protestants as if they are ashamed to be Catholic. Focus on sharing Christ as the Catholic Church is truly Christ centered. Traditionalism wants to preserve Catholic identity and the focus on Christ, which is something that is so downplayed these days.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[JuanCarlos]

I once heard that St. Josemaria Escriva almost converted to Eastern Orthodoxy when he found out about the new Mass

 

[TMC]

Nowadays, the Church has adopted a more subtle approach to winning converts. Holy Mother Church has adapted the way she presents the faith in order to appeal to modern man. Calling everyone heretics will not win converts in the modern world.

Isn’t that ecumenism? Or do I not understand the definition?

Ecuminism is something everyone should be in favor of, for the salvation of their souls and everyone elses
Since we need to always work to help people be converted to Holy Mother Church we need to seek every way to share the faith and give people chances to see that their Salvation depends on being faithful to Christ.

Ecuminism should focus on Christ and on how we best can share Catholicism with others without compromising the faith, or our Catholic identity.

I was reading Unitatis Redintegratio last night, (Vatican II documents are very wordy and good for getting me sleepy)
24. Now that we have briefly set out the conditions for ecumenical action and the principles by which it is to be directed, we look with confidence to the future. This Sacred Council exhorts the faithful to refrain from superficiality and imprudent zeal, which can hinder real progress toward unity. Their ecumenical action must be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is to say, faithful to the truth which we have received from the apostles and Fathers of the Church, in harmony with the faith which the Catholic Church has always professed, and at the same time directed toward that fullness to which Our Lord wills His Body to grow in the course of time.

It seems that many times people in the Church practice a false ecuminism by hiding our Catholic identity and just acting like Protestants as if they are ashamed to be Catholic. Focus on sharing Christ as the Catholic Church is truly Christ centered. Traditionalism wants to preserve Catholic identity and the focus on Christ, which is something that is so downplayed these days.

God Bless
Scylla

I agree with both these statements, but the particular teaching I am referring to is the possiblity of salvation for non-Christians, which is often lumped in with ‘ecumenism’, I suppose because some think it was made up to promote inter-faith dialogue.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I agree with both these statements, but the particular teaching I am referring to is the possiblity of salvation for non-Christians, which is often lumped in with ‘ecumenism’, I suppose because some think it was made up to promote inter-faith dialogue.

The odd thing is that those who reject “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” are almost always either members of the Church, or claim to be members of the true faith, which they think the Church has strayed away from.

It rare for a non-Christian, non-Muslim, to have any hope of something resembling salvation in the Christian sense.

 

[jfallaw]

I agree with both these statements, but the particular teaching I am referring to is the possiblity of salvation for non-Christians, which is often lumped in with ‘ecumenism’, I suppose because some think it was made up to promote inter-faith dialogue.

I agree with you and scylla- we should never be ashamed of our faith or try to hide or downplay it to be more acceptable to others. All we can do is try to explain that belief in a way that is understandable to them. What kept me divided between protestantism and Catholicism was the fact that

a) I had been told many gross exaggerations and outright lies about Catholicism by my protestant peers and dad. Now, I am of the honest opinion that most had no idea they were misrepresenting Catholicism. They just repeat what they hear. Trust me 99% of the people in all the protestant churches I’ve gone to are pretty good people who unfortunately don’t even know half as much about Catholicism as a child getting first Communion. which leads to

b) Catholicism is confusing. VERY. I’ve known cradle Catholics who don’t even understand the role of Mary in the Church. I know next to squat. And whenever I ask about it, I get many different answers. You know that; you read these posts, too. The Catholic Church, I always thought, was supposed to be unique in that EVERYONE, down to the last newly-baptised infant, was supposed to believe the exact same thing. Also I obviously thought that every Catholic went to Catholic school and was strictly taught everything they ever needed to know lol. I honestly never knew any Catholics. Well, I did, but I didn’t know it. Nothing ever set them apart. I never saw one of my young peers cross him/herself. And I grew up in an area where Catholics outnumber protestants! And you know what,? I still, to this day, can count on two hands and a foot the number of people I have ever seen, personally right there with my own eyes, cross themselves in public, outside of Mass, in MY LIFE! And you must understand there are alot of ‘hard teachings’ to accept. So, as a protestant speaking to Catholics, I almost felt like a Catholic speaking to protestants feels: confused. It took literally years of hearing it over again, and lots of study and prayer, before I could fully accept the Marian doctrines. (part of that has to do with the fact that here in the southwest, alot of people DO seem to actually worship Mary. Alot of people here seem to never even speak about Christ but it’s always, Madre this, and Madre that.[and in case you’re thinking about it- I was born and raised in El Paso TX and have lived in West Texas/Eastern New Mexico all my life. I have many Hispanic friends and love them dearly thank you I would call the Pope on it if he ever placed Mary above Christ]) But anyways, sorry for rambling my head goes too fast.It took a few people, like Father Corapi, and certain forum members, to explain things in that way that just makes it CLICK, y’know? That’s what we should be doing is educating people, but man if nobody even has the nerve to cross themselves in public? (I hope my experience in this is unique) I had the idea to make tracts that say something like, ‘The Truth About the Catholic Church’ and spreading them around to the protestants. They would think they were getting some kind of Chick tract and read it only to find it’s a list of all the things we and protestants have in common, and explanations of the things we don’t, using Scripture, of course, as they will accept nothing else. Meh, but anyway, that’s my three cents.