What every average latin rite cath should know about the ECCs?

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MatteoRicci

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So i’m a Chinese latin rite catholic who gets the occasional heresy/idolatry/“It isn’t from Western Europe so it must be Satanic!” comment from his fellow latin rite faithful for such actions as burning incense and respecting my forebearers on their birth and death anniversaries, participating in Chinese New year, and having a large collection of Confucian paraphernalia.

(Do you know how many times i’ve had to explain Confucianism is not a religion? the statue probably doesn’t help. :p)

In my younger days i’d usually try to explain the whole Chinese Rites controversy. Part of me is so jaded at this point i usually just walk up to a computer during the tirade, print out the appropriate section of “Plane Compertum” and hand it to the person.

…and even then at times that’s not enough. 🤷

But the tiny pebbles i am pelted with are in comparison rather small to the giant boulders i see hurled at you members of the ECC on occasion by members of my own rite who simply have no inkling of the wider world.

So here’s my question for you all today - What is it that every member of the Latin Rite should know about the Eastern Catholic Churches? (Well aside from your existence 😛 )

Wait wait - i know the CAF mentality is about to kick in and the onslaught of theology, philosophy, histories of individual churches, and primary sources are going to accumulate sky high.

Perhaps we could umm…start off smaller? 😃
 
I hate to be technical and legalistic but the Eastern Catholic Church refers to the 22 ecclesial bodies (such as the Byzantine Church, Maronite Church) that are in Communion with Rome that use liturgical rites other than the Latin Rite.

It is very appropriate to cherish the sacrifices your ancestors made for the good of your upbringing. It is very appropriate to acknowledge truth wherever it lies.
The praise and worship that we give to God has always been a reflection of culture.
 
MatteoRicci said:
So here’s my question for you all today - What is it that every member of the Latin Rite should know about the Eastern Catholic Churches? (Well aside from your existence 😛 )

Wait wait - i know the CAF mentality is about to kick in and the onslaught of theology, philosophy, histories of individual churches, and primary sources are going to accumulate sky high.

Perhaps we could umm…start off smaller? 😃
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Interesting OP, as I had never reaally had a chance to consider the unique aspects of being Catholic and culturally Chinese. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences!

Well, let’s see if I can start us off, “small” as you’ve suggested:

We are indeed CATHOLIC!

We are NOT Orthodox, although it may seem so both in our liturgical expression and in our manner of thought on doctrine and theology, both of which heavily demonstrate our Eastern Christian lineage.

Our churches have suffered through much in order to remain faithfully CATHOLIC while remaining true to our Eastern Christian / Orthodox heritage, so we do at times demonstrate some sensitivity when (i) our Latin Rite brothers and sisters suggest (purposely or unknowingly) that we are not Catholic and (ii) it is suggested that we have betrayed our Orthodox roots by becoming and remaining Catholic (which, or course, happened hundreds of years ago in most cases, predating all of us).

Yet, we do feel a burden to remain faithful to the Catholic Church and our Orthodox heritage, and pray that we may in that regard work more fervently to help restore unity among the Apostolic Churches.

Hope that helps!
 
In reference to being culturally Chinese while being Catholic, to me it would be a lot like being a Jewish Catholic, where you still partake in Jewish customs that are compatible with Catholicism, while still being fully Catholic.

Eating only kosher foods, for example, could be a Jewish thing that a Catholic from a Jewish family could still observe.
 
The Chinese/Cantonese Divine Liturgy looks spectacular!!

In fact, it was the Ukrainian Orthodox missionary to Siberia, Saint John Maximovych, Metropolitan of Tobolsk of the 18th century who translated the DL into Chinese - but he never entered China to celebrate it.

His family descendant, also St John Maximovych, Archbishop of Shanghai and San Francisco (+1966), actually did celebrate the Orthodox DL in Chinese. St John founded an orphanage for Chinese, Ukrainian, Russian, Filipino etc. children whom he later brought to San Francisco where he built the Cathedral of Our Lady the Joy of all who Sorrow on Geary Blvd. He was canonized an Orthodox Saint simultaneously around the world in the French, Slavonic, Spanish, Dutch, English, Serbian etc. languages as the “Apostle of the Diaspora.”

So it is within the Ukrainian religious tradition, including that of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, to include the Chinese cultural experience within its public worship.

Something of which I am personally very proud.

Alex
 
MatteoRicci said:
So i’m a Chinese latin rite catholic who gets the occasional heresy/idolatry/“It isn’t from Western Europe so it must be Satanic!” comment from his fellow latin rite faithful for such actions as burning incense and respecting my forebearers on their birth and death anniversaries, participating in Chinese New year, and having a large collection of Confucian paraphernalia.

(Do you know how many times i’ve had to explain Confucianism is not a religion? the statue probably doesn’t help. :p)

In my younger days i’d usually try to explain the whole Chinese Rites controversy. Part of me is so jaded at this point i usually just walk up to a computer during the tirade, print out the appropriate section of “Plane Compertum” and hand it to the person.

…and even then at times that’s not enough. 🤷

But the tiny pebbles i am pelted with are in comparison rather small to the giant boulders i see hurled at you members of the ECC on occasion by members of my own rite who simply have no inkling of the wider world.

So here’s my question for you all today - What is it that every member of the Latin Rite should know about the Eastern Catholic Churches? (Well aside from your existence 😛 )

Wait wait - i know the CAF mentality is about to kick in and the onslaught of theology, philosophy, histories of individual churches, and primary sources are going to accumulate sky high.

Perhaps we could umm…start off smaller? 😃
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Dear Matteo,

And where may I obtain a statue of Confucius (Kung Fu-Tzu)?

Alex
 
Alexander_Roman said:
The Chinese/Cantonese Divine Liturgy looks spectacular!!

In fact, it was the Ukrainian Orthodox missionary to Siberia, Saint John Maximovych, Metropolitan of Tobolsk of the 18th century who translated the DL into Chinese - but he never entered China to celebrate it.

His family descendant, also St John Maximovych, Archbishop of Shanghai and San Francisco (+1966), actually did celebrate the Orthodox DL in Chinese. St John founded an orphanage for Chinese, Ukrainian, Russian, Filipino etc. children whom he later brought to San Francisco where he built the Cathedral of Our Lady the Joy of all who Sorrow on Geary Blvd. He was canonized an Orthodox Saint simultaneously around the world in the French, Slavonic, Spanish, Dutch, English, Serbian etc. languages as the “Apostle of the Diaspora.”

So it is within the Ukrainian religious tradition, including that of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, to include the Chinese cultural experience within its public worship.

Something of which I am personally very proud.

Alex
Click to expand...
Father Olexander (the priest in the photo) is interested to come to the Philippines and do a Filipino Divine Liturgy. We’re just working on getting someone to foot the bill 😉
 
Our Russian Greek/Byzantine/Eastern Catholic people as well as Russian Orthodox for some years took refuge among other places in Harbin, China and Shanghai when fleeing Russia after the horrors that followed the October Revolution. Unfortunately many were not blest to make it on to freedom as did those whose ancestors were part of my parish, and who are clergy and parishioners in the OCA parish I also worship with and surely are also at the Holy Virgin Cathedral and Holy Trinity Cathedral in SF.
Alexander_Roman said:
The Chinese/Cantonese Divine Liturgy looks spectacular!!

In fact, it was the Ukrainian Orthodox missionary to Siberia, Saint John Maximovych, Metropolitan of Tobolsk of the 18th century who translated the DL into Chinese - but he never entered China to celebrate it.

His family descendant, also St John Maximovych, Archbishop of Shanghai and San Francisco (+1966), actually did celebrate the Orthodox DL in Chinese. St John founded an orphanage for Chinese, Ukrainian, Russian, Filipino etc. children whom he later brought to San Francisco where he built the Cathedral of Our Lady the Joy of all who Sorrow on Geary Blvd. He was canonized an Orthodox Saint simultaneously around the world in the French, Slavonic, Spanish, Dutch, English, Serbian etc. languages as the “Apostle of the Diaspora.”

So it is within the Ukrainian religious tradition, including that of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, to include the Chinese cultural experience within its public worship.

Something of which I am personally very proud.

Alex
Click to expand...
Alex- Thank you for remembering +St. John Miracle-worker of Shanghai and San Francisco. The relics of St. John remain inside the glorious Holy Virgin Cathedral Joy of All who Sorrow. A visit to venerate these relics should be included in the plans of anyone visiting San Francisco. Each Sat. evening the moleben is prayed beside his casket. Last October the relics of St. John of Shanghai & San Francisco were re-vested by the assembled clergy of the Western American Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. A profound slide show of this if available.
 
LoyalViews said:
…never heard that one:confused:😃
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Go over to the “traditional Catholics” forum and see what they have to say about yoga over there. There’s about as much mistrust of Indian, Japanese, Chinese, Native American, etc. philosophy, thought, and even approaches to the spiritual life as you can imagine. Perhaps the attitude isn’t so much “Since it’s not European it must be satanic” as it is “since it doesn’t fit into the Greek philosophical framework within which our Western (and even Byzantine) theology is understood, then it must be wrong, pagan, satanic…”
 
I would say that every member of the Roman Church ought to be well-aware that Eastern Catholics are fully Catholic, but with our own non-Latin/Roman traditions, liturgy, spirituality, discipline, history, theology etc. We are in agreement with the Roman Church on all essential of the Faith, but our theology behind those essentials is at times very different and seemingly contradictory to Rome’s theology. We are, however, faithful Catholics, and have many of us have even sacrificed our lives for the sake of communion with the See of Rome. To call into question our Catholicity is to insult a large number of great martyrs and saints of the Catholic Church itself.
 
Well Constantine and Loyal, what i said was more of hyperbole out of exasperation for what Phillip so skillfully pointed out:
Phillip_Rolfes said:
“since it doesn’t fit into the Greek philosophical framework within which our Western (and even Byzantine) theology is understood, then it must be wrong, pagan, satanic…”
Click to expand...
Being more reflective about it for a second, i do understand the concerns that are being expressed.

The Church passed through Vatican II with a number of sore spots and Western society got a crash course on Eastern philosophy during the 1960s. While reform was necessary (or at least i think it was - i suppose someone here could concievably support the Society of St. Pius X), it also produced a number of disturbing undercurrents.

Because a lot of the culture of the East got imported into the West via the New Age movement (if in a very watered down form), in some peoples mindsets the whole intellectual heritage from the foreign culture must somehow equate to “the Enemy.”

I can’t help but feel that this has created a kind of “dig in” mentality for a section of our Church who emphatically reject anything and everything that doesn’t come out of what they would consider “the norm.”

They are the reaction to the other extreme wing of the Latin Rite who seems like they are about to throw out the baby with the bathwater and have us all chanting the names of Vishnu and the Buddha at Mass. Or sell us “Jesus Christ, the Maoist Revolutionary Agitator.”

Ultimately none of this really “new,” the same debates (ironically) occurred over the status of Greek Philosophy amongst the Fathers of the Church. Anyone remember Tertullian’s infamous comment about the relationship between Athens and Jerusalem?

And maybe this will eventually quiet down…after about 100 years worth of intellectual digestion. 😛

BUT - what i find more disturbing than simple culture clash is that we do have a set of Catholics who do get more or less alienated at times by members of my own rite.

Not only do they have their own traditions, but they also have a unique experience in spreading the gospel in lands outside of what people might consider to be the norm of Christianity.

What some see as “aberrant,” i look upon as a gift.

And yes Neil - i do pray in front of Master Kong’s statue. It along with my family photographs is directly opposite of Francis Xavier (how else would i be a Catholic? ), Padre Pio, and the Blessed Virgin.

It is after all proper for the true gentleman to maintain propriety and give honor to those above him no?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Same here. All I’ve heard is, “if you’re not Roman Catholic, then you’re a Protestant.”
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It’s amazing how many Roman Catholics do not appreciate why they are called “Roman Catholic” and not simply “Catholic”. In fairness, its taken years to educate my mom’s side of the family. We finally broke ground a few years back when I asked my cousin to be Godfather for my youngest son, and at first he was convinced that he would not be able to do so in “another Church”.

It seems its easier to understand that there are different varieties of vanilla ice cream - different shades of grey - etc. - than it is to accept that there are different types of Catholics.
 
Yep. I think a good first step would be for someone reliable and perhaps even official to publish a list of churches which are in full communion with Rome.

I had an issue about a week ago where a friend’s father died. The family are members of the Antioch Orthodox Church. I could not remember whether this was an Eastern Catholic Church or not, so I had to come on here and ask. ByzTradCath, thank you (and others) for your explanations.
 
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