What evidence is there that Jews used the Deuterocanon?

[adriancombe]

I do not own a copy. I took one class in Greek and sold all my books back
What is the specific wording? We are not talking about cross references, or maybe we are. I would like to know the specific wording and see it myself.
But yes I will question it. Establishing literary dependence is independent of the training for translations and establishing textual variants. My wife is trained in linguistics and is my source on this. While she is not trained specifically in Greek, the rules for establishing literary dependence transcend the specific language. As far as the list, I will give it a F-. The last three one on the list, that were not quoted, claim it “follows” where it is not possible. The usage follows indicates a direct relationship. If that is not what the author is meaning, he should state that.

Look

It is as absurd as claiming that Thomas Jefferson quotes President Obama.
The author of the list also perpetuates outdated scholarship about Jamnia.

You probably have a point - I have not looked at the website you are talking about. And, it has at least one verse that Nestle Aland doesn’t. But, many of them are in NA, plus a bunch that aren’t on that list…

Part of the issue with comparing is the loci citati vel allegati to that list is the NA appendix lists the references sorted by the OT book not the NT book.

I figure “literary dependence” is defined differently by different folks but that was never the question as far as I was aware. The issue is the NT authors were obviously aware of the deuteros and apocrypha and so claims that these came after the time of Christ are spurious.

 

[NHInsider]

The real question is was I correct in saying the Jews [those in authority] hated the christians. I think the answer is obvious. Read the book of Acts where Paul [then known as Saul] hunted down the christians on behalf of the Jewish authorities. Did he do this out of love? If so, why were the christians in Damascus afraid of him? Did the Jews murder Stephen and James out of love?

They would have said (and did say) that they acted out of love for God. The Pharisees in particular were responsible for defending the purity of the faith. To their minds, Jesus was a blasphemer, a mere human being who claimed to be one with God, to be superior to both Abraham and Moses, to have the authority to interpret Scripture and abrogate the Law. In attempting to eliminate Christianity they were trying to protect their people from the dangers of heresy. The God-ordained penalty for blasphemy was death.

Nearly two thousand years on, we often fail to comprehend how radical and earth-shattering Jesus’ message was.

 

[inkaneer]

You can’t be equating your brash behaviour on an anonymous forum with being a martyr…are you???

Not in the least but like I said, I am not afraid of the truth either. I think the scriptures document very well that there was division and strife between the early christians and the Jews. And that strife existed amongst some of the the Jewish converts [the Judacizers] as well as those Jews who did not convert. The only difference was one of degreee. The Judacizers, as far as we know, never attempted to kill christians. The Jews who did not convert did.

 

[inkaneer]

They would have said (and did say) that they acted out of love for God. The Pharisees in particular were responsible for defending the purity of the faith. To their minds, Jesus was a blasphemer, a mere human being who claimed to be one with God, to be superior to both Abraham and Moses, to have the authority to interpret Scripture and abrogate the Law. In attempting to eliminate Christianity they were trying to protect their people from the dangers of heresy. The God-ordained penalty for blasphemy was death.

Nearly two thousand years on, we often fail to comprehend how radical and earth-shattering Jesus’ message was.

I disagree. The may have claimed they acted out of love for God; they may have even believed they acted out of love for God. Since when do you kill someone out of love for God? Tell me how they were any better than any of the Islamic terrorists we have today? They accuse us of blasphemy. They see themselves as defenders of the purity of Islam. Explain to me [and the rest of us] how you can love God and hate your neighbor enough to kill him. I don’t think that is possible.

 

[geometer]

Explain to me [and the rest of us] how you can love God and hate your neighbor enough to kill him. I don’t think that is possible.

perfect…

 

[NotWorthy]

I disagree. The may have claimed they acted out of love for God; they may have even believed they acted out of love for God. Since when do you kill someone out of love for God? Tell me how they were any better than any of the Islamic terrorists we have today?

Wouldn’t the Jews who slew the Canaanites or the Jews that stoned the man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath or Phinehas, who stuck a spear through the Israelite who was “knockin’ boots” with the Moabite woman, claim that they were acting out of love for God?

They accuse us of blasphemy. They see themselves as defenders of the purity of Islam. Explain to me [and the rest of us] how you can love God and hate your neighbor enough to kill him. I don’t think that is possible.

There is one big difference. The Jews are doing it out of love for God. The Islamist tends to be doing it for 72 reasons (if you know what I mean).

 

[geometer]

The God-ordained penalty for blasphemy was death.

No I don’t think it was. One is only killed for blasphemy if one blasphemes while commiting a crime. Blasphemy is its own punishment, it can be instantly fatal.

 

[inkaneer]

Wouldn’t the Jews who slew the Canaanites or the Jews that stoned the man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath or Phinehas, who stuck a spear through the Israelite who was “knockin’ boots” with the Moabite woman, claim that they were acting out of love for God?

Well if you can show me that was the reason stated in the scriptures then I would agree with you. But I don’t think it was.

There is one big difference. The Jews are doing it out of love for God. The Islamist tends to be doing it for 72 reasons (if you know what I mean).

You are quite wrong. The Islamists claim they are killing ‘infidels’ for the glory of Allah. Jihad or ‘Holy War’ and your 72 reasons are not the same.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well if you can show me that was the reason stated in the scriptures then I would agree with you. But I don’t think it was.

Well, the Israelites who slayed the Canaanites in Joshua did it because the God they professed to love ordered them to.

The Israelites who stoned the man who was caught picking up sticks did it because the God who they professed to love had written it into their Law.

Phinehas never gave a reason, but it proved to please God for He made a Covenant with Phinehas (no small thing indeed!).

You are quite wrong. The Islamists claim they are killing ‘infidels’ for the glory of Allah. Jihad or ‘Holy War’ and your 72 reasons are not the same.

Although I was adding the “72 reasons” somewhat in jest, the 72 virgins awaiting them is mentioned almost as often as “for the Glory of Allah”. In any event, its not for the love of Allah, for Muslims to love Allah the way Jews and Christians love God (Yahweh). Theirs is strictly a master/slave relationship - which is why they find Catholics calling God, “Father” so blasphemous.

 

[thistle]

I disagree. The may have claimed they acted out of love for God; they may have even believed they acted out of love for God. ** Since when do you kill someone out of love for God? ** Tell me how they were any better than any of the Islamic terrorists we have today? They accuse us of blasphemy. They see themselves as defenders of the purity of Islam. Explain to me [and the rest of us] how you can love God and hate your neighbor enough to kill him. I don’t think that is possible.

Abraham was prepared to kill his son Isaac out of love for God.

 

[inkaneer]

Abraham was prepared to kill his son Isaac out of love for God.

Is that what scripture says or is that what you want scripture to say??? Genesis 22:12 says Abraham did it because he feared God.

“12 And he said , Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.” [Genesis 22:12]

According to my lexicon the word ‘fear’ in that verse is a translation of the Hebrew *‘yare’ * and means reverent obedience wholey or partially based on fear. Other meanings are to fear, be afraid, to stand in awe of, be awed to fear, reverence, honour, respect, to make afraid, terrify, to be fearful, be dreadful, be feared, to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe, to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe. I don’t see love listed.

 

[inkaneer]

Well, the Israelites who slayed the Canaanites in Joshua did it because the God they professed to love ordered them to.

So was it love or obedience to a God they feared. [See my post above for the meaning of fear as used in the bible.]

The Israelites who stoned the man who was caught picking up sticks did it because the God who they professed to love had written it into their Law.

So they were obeying a law. Hey on my street the speed limit is 25mph and I don’t go over that. But I don’t do that because I love the cops who man the speed trap.

Phinehas never gave a reason, but it proved to please God for He made a Covenant with Phinehas (no small thing indeed!).

But was it love or fear???

Although I was adding the “72 reasons” somewhat in jest, the 72 virgins awaiting them is mentioned almost as often as “for the Glory of Allah”. In any event, its not for the love of Allah, for Muslims to love Allah the way Jews and Christians love God (Yahweh). Theirs is strictly a master/slave relationship - which is why they find Catholics calling God, “Father” so blasphemous.

See the most recent thwarted airliner attack. No mention of virgins or love of God or Allah. The reasons were purely political.

 

[NotWorthy]

So was it love or obedience to a God they feared. [See my post above for the meaning of fear as used in the bible.]

The Israelites proclaimed their Love of God and their Fear of the Lord. You could say they feared the Lord out of Love for Him.

So they were obeying a law. Hey on my street the speed limit is 25mph and I don’t go over that. But I don’t do that because I love the cops who man the speed trap.

But was it love or fear???

Both, my brother!!!

See the most recent thwarted airliner attack. No mention of virgins or love of God or Allah. The reasons were purely political.

See the terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center. They all talked of the 72 virgins awaiting them.

My question to them is, where does it say the virgins will be all women?

 

[inkaneer]

The Israelites proclaimed their Love of God and their Fear of the Lord. You could say they feared the Lord out of Love for Him.

No, You could say that but you would be wrong, I’ll stick with what the scriptures say and the scriptures don’t say that.

Both, my brother!!!

Again you are forcing your interpretation onto what is written in the scriptures. Not good, not good at all.

See the terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center. They all talked of the 72 virgins awaiting them

Really? And here I thought they all died. Maybe they talked to you?

 

[NotWorthy]

No, You could say that but you would be wrong, I’ll stick with what the scriptures say and the scriptures don’t say that.

How do you say that your way is right and my way is wrong. Did the Israelites not declare a love for God? Didn’t Yahweh give them this as the FIRST and foremost commandment and the Israelites attested that all God has said, they will do.

It would seem that the Israelites were commanded to love God first. The Israelites call this the Schema (if I’ve got it spelled right) and it was placed on their foreheads and their doorposts.

Again you are forcing your interpretation onto what is written in the scriptures. Not good, not good at all.

How can you possibly deny that the Israelites did not love the Lord their God.

Really? And here I thought they all died. Maybe they talked to you?

Dearest Inkaneer, your sarcasm is noted. They did leave taped messages behind. Their comings and going were well noted as well as some phone conversations that they had. Just because you never heard that the 72 virgins is not used as a coercion method does not make it false.

 

[inkaneer]

How do you say that your way is right and my way is wrong. Did the Israelites not declare a love for God? Didn’t Yahweh give them this as the FIRST and foremost commandment and the Israelites attested that all God has said, they will do.

It would seem that the Israelites were commanded to love God first. The Israelites call this the Schema (if I’ve got it spelled right) and it was placed on their foreheads and their doorposts.

How can you possibly deny that the Israelites did not love the Lord their God…

First, I never said they didn’t love the Lord their God so don’t put words in my mouth. Second, the scriptures never say they did what you refer to because of love of God. I’ll stick to what the scriptures actually say and not what you would like to invent. Third I never said anything about ‘my way’ versus ‘your way’. I referred to what the scriptures said so it was ‘your way’ versus ‘the scripture’s way’. If you have a problem with that then you need not envolve me.

 

[NotWorthy]

First, I never said they didn’t love the Lord their God so don’t put words in my mouth. Second, the scriptures never say they did what you refer to because of love of God. I’ll stick to what the scriptures actually say and not what you would like to invent.

Inkaneer, pretend I’m an idiot and please show me where Scriptures say that they did it out of Fear of God. I honestly don’t know, so I’m asking with all sincerity.

Second, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. You said regarding my statement that they did it out of Love for God
"Inkaneer:

No, You could say that but you would be wrong, I’ll stick with what the scriptures say and the scriptures don’t say that.

So that’s what I assume you meant.

Third I never said anything about ‘my way’ versus ‘your way’. I referred to what the scriptures said so it was ‘your way’ versus ‘the scripture’s way’. If you have a problem with that then you need not envolve me.

Well… when you claim that you are right and I am wrong, I’m sorry if I read it as “your way” vs. “my way”. I understand that sometimes both sides are right, but you’ve seem to have eliminated that option.

 

[inkaneer]

Inkaneer, pretend I’m an idiot and please show me where Scriptures say that they did it out of Fear of God. I honestly don’t know, so I’m asking with all sincerity.

I answered this before. See post No. 51.

 

[NotWorthy]

I answered this before. See post No. 51.

I never brought up Abraham, Ink. I brought up the stoning of the man picking up sticks, Phinehas’ slaying of the Moabite and the Israelite, and Joshua and the gang’s slaying of the Canaanites.

See post 46.

 

[graceandglory]

This is from our NT; the Apostles read the Deuterocanon it seems.

• Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
• Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
• Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
• Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
• Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
• Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
• Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
• Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.
• Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
• Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
• Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
• Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
• Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
• Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
• Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.
• Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
• Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
• Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
• Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.
• Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
• John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
• John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
• John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.
• John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
• John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
• John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
• John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
• Acts 1:15 - Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Dear Irish,
Can you give us a reference to this list. I would like to cite the author. THANKS!
gg