What evidence is there ?

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gusano

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I have read reams of quasi-convincing “proof” or “evidence” that the catholic church is not the Church that Christ established, or is building. …and much on what they think the church is.
maybe you have read or heard all that “evidence” too, and there is still much more that I will never see.

I would like to see some “real evidence or proof” that what the Reformers produced was Inspired by God.

If you know of, or know some one who knows where that EVIDENCE is …please bring it forth.

Remember;
convincing proof that something else is wrong…
does not prove that what you have in your bosom is right.

Gusano
 
This is an argument I always pose as well. If the Protestant reformers were inspired, then they need to provide proof of this inspiration just as Moses, Jesus, and the Apostles provided proof through miracles.

Without this proof, then we would all be at the mercy of human beings claiming inspiration and there would be no way for us to tell the true prophet from the false prophet. The reformers have never shown proof so they are not to be believed. It is blatenly obvious that they weren’t inspired anyway as we see people like Luther and Calvin were in opposition on many things from the get go. Obviously the Holy Ghost would not wait 1400 years, then suddenly inspire two unknown men, giving each of them different doctrine to reform with.

BH
protestanterrors.com
 
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bhlincoln:
This is an argument I always pose as well. If the Protestant reformers were inspired, then they need to provide proof of this inspiration just as Moses, Jesus, and the Apostles provided proof through miracles.

Without this proof, then we would all be at the mercy of human beings claiming inspiration and there would be no way for us to tell the true prophet from the false prophet.

The reformers have never shown proof so they are not to be believed. It is blatenly obvious that they weren’t inspired anyway as we see people like Luther and Calvin were in opposition on many things from the get go. Obviously the Holy Ghost would not wait 1400 years, then suddenly inspire two unknown men, giving each of them different doctrine to reform with.

BH
protestanterrors.com
Hi BHLincoln,
I have given much thought to 2 Thess 3:10-12 … and shown this Word to my ex-catholic evangelical brothers .
The part I think is scary …
"…because they did not open their hearts to the TRUTH in order to be saved, Therefore God is sending upon them a perverse spirit …which leads them to give credence to falsehood…and be condemned !

makes one think how God must feel about TRUTH … or lack of it.

God bless

gusano
 
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gusano:
Hi BHLincoln,
I have given much thought to 2 Thess 3
:10-12 … and shown this Word to my ex-catholic evangelical brothers .
The part I think is scary …
**"…because they did not open their hearts to the TRUTH **in order to be saved, Therefore God is sending upon them a perverse spirit …which leads them to give credence to falsehood…and be condemned !

makes one think how God must feel about TRUTH … or lack of it.

God bless

gusano

That passage is actually 2nd Thess 2:10 And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:11 That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity. 12 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth:

It certainly could apply to them, but the fact is that this talks about the way that the anti-Christ will deceive those who reject the truth. I often marvel just how fast new religious fads seem to catch on in the world and among n-Cs. Catholics don’t seem quite as bad about it.

This thread deal with the “great Apostasy” allegations and shows that there was no such thing in the Catholic Church.
Pax tecum,
 
This is why we as Catholics should learn the Catechism of the Catholic Church and take these teachings to heart. Our Lord Jesus gave the “Truth” to the Catholic Church, brought forth to us through Sacred Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.

Any teaching outside of the C.C.C. is incomplete and subject to curruption by man and/or woman.
 
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bhlincoln:
This is an argument I always pose as well. If the Protestant reformers were inspired, then they need to provide proof of this inspiration just as Moses, Jesus, and the Apostles provided proof through miracles.

Without this proof, then we would all be at the mercy of human beings claiming inspiration and there would be no way for us to tell the true prophet from the false prophet. The reformers have never shown proof so they are not to be believed. It is blatenly obvious that they weren’t inspired anyway as we see people like Luther and Calvin were in opposition on many things from the get go. Obviously the Holy Ghost would not wait 1400 years, then suddenly inspire two unknown men, giving each of them different doctrine to reform with.

BH
protestanterrors.com
Thanks BH,
I just finished reading protestanterrors.com
: “The plain truth about Protestantism”.

WOW !
after reading that,… I wonder if a serious protestant would have the courage to raise his head to defend the reformers or continue the attacks against the Church ?

😃
gusano
 
Church Militant:
That passage is actually 2nd Thess 2:10 And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:11 That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity. 12 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth:

OOPS ! my mitake…sorry.
you are right, it is 2Thess.2: 10 …and I like your version better because it focuses on “the LOVE of Truth”… which happens to be Jesus’ middle name.
"I am the way, THE TRUTH, and the life."

It seems to me that The Holy Spirit wants to form in our hearts THE LOVE OF TRUTH … and if we do not respond to TRUTH with Love…God begins to roll up his sleeve and form his Left hand into a fist…to send a “left hook”! :eek:
It certainly could apply to them, but the fact is that this talks about the way that** the anti-Christ will deceive those who reject the truth**
. I often marvel just how fast new religious fads seem to catch on in the world and among n-Cs. Catholics don’t seem quite as bad about it.

This thread deal with the “great Apostasy” allegations and shows that there was no such thing in the Catholic Church.
Pax tecum,
The anti-christ has a million ways to lead AWAY FROM TRUTH…
The Holy Spirit has only ONE way to LEAD INTO THE TRUTH .

and that is to set our hearts ON FIRE …to LOVE the Truth !

gusano
 
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Walking_Home:
This is why we as Catholics should learn the Catechism of the Catholic Church and take these teachings to heart. Our Lord Jesus gave the “Truth” to the Catholic Church, brought forth to us through Sacred Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.

Any teaching outside of the C.C.C. is incomplete and subject to curruption by man and/or woman.
I wholeheartedly agree.
My two favorite books are the Bible and the Catechism…like My left foot and my right foot !

I believe if we catholics were to submerge into The Scripture and The Catechumenate…
We would be unstop-able in the Divine Wind that drives us

gusano
 
Tell them to go to any encyclopedia (even non-catholic ones) and look up the origins of the Catholic Church and they will see that it’s roots are traced back all the way to St. Peter. Non-Catholic sources would not support this if it wasn’t true.
 
Sir Knight:
Tell them to go to any encyclopedia (even non-catholic ones) and look up the origins of the Catholic Church and they will see that it’s roots are traced back all the way to St. Peter. Non-Catholic sources would not support this if it wasn’t true.
I’m not sure I understand what you say…
Are you saying that any encyclopedia will supply evedence that what the reformers produced was inspired by God ?

That the origins of the Catholic Church’s roots can be traced back all the way to St. Peter is well embedded in my Faith.

It is the origin of the reformers, and** evidence or proof that God inspired them,** that I am seeking.
It seems to me there should be volumes of such evidence, with all the preaching that goes on.

The Peace of Christ

gusano
 
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gusano:
It is the origin of the reformers, and** evidence or proof that God inspired them,** that I am seeking.
Oh. I misunderstood. I can’t help with that. I was offering proof of the Catholic Church’s roots.

I don’t think that the reformers were inspired by God. Recall that Christ said that a house divided against itself can not stand. Why would God want to cause division within the church that he promised would stand up to the jaws of hell?
 
Sir Knight:
Oh. I misunderstood. I can’t help with that. I was offering proof of the Catholic Church’s roots.

I don’t think that the reformers were inspired by God. Recall that Christ said that a house divided against itself can not stand. Why would God want to cause division within the church that he promised would stand up to the jaws of hell?
The reformers never claimed to be inspired??? They just claimed that scripture was their only guiding source.
 
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kaycee:
The reformers never claimed to be inspired??? They just claimed that scripture was their only guiding source.
And even that proves unscriptural…

A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura
By Dave Armstrong
  1. Sola Scriptura Is Not Taught in the Bible
Catholics agree with Protestants that Scripture is a “standard of truth”—even the preeminent one—but not in a sense that rules out the binding authority of authentic apostolic Tradition and the Church. The Bible doesn’t teach that. Catholics agree that Scripture is materially sufficient. In other words, on this view, every true doctrine can be found in the Bible, if only implicitly and indirectly by deduction. But no biblical passage teaches that Scripture is the formal authority or rule of faith in isolation from the Church and Tradition. Sola scriptura can’t even be deduced from implicit passages.
  1. The “Word of God” Refers to Oral Teaching Also
“Word” in Holy Scripture often refers to a proclaimed, oral teaching of prophets or apostles. What the prophets spoke was the word of God regardless of whether or not their utterances were recorded later as written Scripture. So for example, we read in Jeremiah:

“For twenty-three years . . . the word of the Lord has come to me and I have spoken to you again and again . . . ‘But you did not listen to me,’ declares the Lord. . . . Therefore the Lord Almighty says this: ‘Because you have not listened to my words. . . .’”
(Jer. 25:3, 7-8 [NIV]).

This was the word of God even though some of it was not recorded in writing. It had equal authority as writing or proclamation-never-reduced-to-writing. This was true also of apostolic preaching. When the phrases “word of God” or “word of the Lord” appear in Acts and the epistles, they almost always refer to oral preaching, not to Scripture. For example:

“When you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God” (1 Thess. 2:13).

If we compare this passage with another, written to the same church, Paul appears to regard oral teaching and the word of God as synonymous:

“Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6).
  1. Tradition Is Not a Dirty Word
Protestants often quote the verses in the Bible where corrupt traditions of men are condemned (e.g., Matt. 15:2–6; Mark 7:8–13; Col. 2:8). Of course, Catholics agree with this. But it’s not the whole truth. True, apostolic Tradition also is endorsed positively. This Tradition is in total harmony with and consistent with Scripture.
  1. Jesus and Paul Accepted Non-Biblical Oral and Written Traditions
Protestants defending sola scriptura will claim that Jesus and Paul accepted the authority of the Old Testament. This is true, but they also appealed to other authority outside of written revelation. For example:

a. The reference to “He shall be called a Nazarene” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was “spoken by the prophets” (Matt. 2:23). Therefore, this prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s word,” was passed down orally rather than through Scripture.

b. In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down.

c. In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul refers to a rock that “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But rabbinic tradition does.

d. “As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses” (2 Tim. 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Ex. 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.

cont’d
 
  1. The Apostles Exercised Authority at the Council of Jerusalem
In the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:6–30), we see Peter and James speaking with authority. This Council makes an authoritative pronouncement (citing the Holy Spirit) that was binding on all Christians:

“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity” (Acts 15:28–29).

In the next chapter, we read that Paul, Timothy, and Silas were traveling around “through the cities,” and Scripture says that “they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).
  1. Pharisees, Sadducees, and Oral, Extrabiblical Tradition
Christianity was derived in many ways from the Pharisaical tradition of Judaism. The Sadducees, on the other hand, rejected the future resurrection of the soul, the afterlife, rewards and retribution, demons and angels, and predestinarianism. The Sadducees also rejected all authoritative oral teaching and essentially believed in sola scriptura. They were the theological liberals of that time. Christian Pharisees are referred to in Acts 15:5 and Philippians 3:5, but the Bible never mentions Christian Sadducees.

The Pharisees, despite their corruptions and excesses, were the mainstream Jewish tradition, and both Jesus and Paul acknowledge this. So neither the orthodox Old Testament Jews nor the early Church was guided by the principle of sola scriptura.
  1. Old Testament Jews Did Not Believe in Sola Scriptura
To give two examples from the Old Testament itself:

a. Ezra, a priest and scribe, studied the Jewish law and taught it to Israel, and his authority was binding under pain of imprisonment, banishment, loss of goods, and even death (cf. Ezra 7:26).

b. In Nehemiah 8:3, Ezra reads the Law of Moses to the people in Jerusalem. In verse 7 we find thirteen Levites who assisted Ezra and helped the people to understand the law. Much earlier, we find Levites exercising the same function (cf. 2 Chr. 17:8–9).

So the people did indeed understand the law (cf. Neh. 8:8, 12), but not without much assistance—not merely upon hearing. Likewise, the Bible is not altogether clear in and of itself but requires the aid of teachers who are more familiar with biblical styles and Hebrew idiom, background, context, exegesis and cross-reference, hermeneutical principles, original languages, etc. The Old Testament, then, teaches about a binding Tradition and need for authoritative interpreters, as does the New Testament (cf. Mark 4:33–34; Acts 8:30–31; 2 Pet. 1:20; 3:16).

Cont’d
 
  1. Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant “Proof Text”
“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ” (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.
  1. Paul Casually Assumes That His Passed-Down Tradition Is Infallible and Binding
If Paul wasn’t assuming that, he would have been commanding his followers to adhere to a mistaken doctrine. He writes:

“If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed” (2 Thess. 3:14).

“Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them” (Rom. 16:17).

He didn’t write about “the pretty-much, mostly, largely true but not infallible doctrine which you have been taught.”
  1. Sola Scriptura Is a Circular Position
When all is said and done, Protestants who accept sola scriptura as their rule of faith appeal to the Bible. If they are asked why one should believe in their particular denominational teaching rather than another, each will appeal to “the Bible’s clear teaching.” Often they act as if they have no tradition that guides their own interpretation.

This is similar to people on two sides of a constitutional debate both saying, “Well, we go by what the Constitution says, whereas you guys don’t.” The U.S. Constitution, like the Bible, is not sufficient in and of itself to resolve differing interpretations. Judges and courts are necessary, and their decrees are legally binding. Supreme Court rulings cannot be overturned except by a future ruling or constitutional amendment. In any event, there is always a final appeal that settles the matter.

But Protestantism lacks this because it appeals to a logically self-defeating principle and a book that must be interpreted by human beings. Obviously, given the divisions in Protestantism, simply “going to the Bible” hasn’t worked. In the end, a person has no assurance or certainty in the Protestant system. They can only “go to the Bible” themselves and perhaps come up with another doctrinal version of some disputed doctrine to add to the list. One either believes there is one truth in any given theological dispute (whatever it is) or adopts a relativist or indifferentist position, where contradictions are fine or the doctrine is so “minor” that differences “don’t matter.”

But the Bible doesn’t teach that whole categories of doctrines are “minor” and that Christians freely and joyfully can disagree in such a fashion. Denominationalism and divisions are vigorously condemned. The only conclusion we can reach from the Bible is what we call the “three-legged stool”: Bible, Church, and Tradition are all necessary to arrive at truth. If you knock out any leg of a three-legged stool, it collapses.

Pax vobiscum,
 
Sir Knight:
Oh. I misunderstood. I can’t help with that. I was offering proof of the Catholic Church’s roots.

I don’t think that the reformers were inspired by God. Recall that Christ said that a house divided against itself can not stand. Why would God want to cause division within the church that he promised would stand up to the jaws of hell?
WOW !
Thanks Sir Knight, looks like it is clear to both of us…ALLELUIA !
Your response is straight, short and quickens the understanding
and best of all , True.
and backed by scripture.

It makes my heart soar like an Eagle.

The Peace of Christ to you

gusano
 
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bhlincoln:
This is an argument I always pose as well. If the Protestant reformers were inspired, then they need to provide proof of this inspiration just as Moses, Jesus, and the Apostles provided proof through miracles.

Without this proof, then we would all be at the mercy of human beings claiming inspiration and there would be no way for us to tell the true prophet from the false prophet. The reformers have never shown proof so they are not to be believed. It is blatenly obvious that they weren’t inspired anyway as we see people like Luther and Calvin were in opposition on many things from the get go. Obviously the Holy Ghost would not wait 1400 years, then suddenly inspire two unknown men, giving each of them different doctrine to reform with.

BH
protestanterrors.com
Read the website and loved it. However, in #29, you want affect, not *effect. Effect *as a verb means to produce a result. Affect as a verb means to produce a change.

Sorry, but I can’t help it! It’s the former English teacher in me coming out!
 
Church Militant:
Protestants often quote the verses in the Bible where corrupt traditions of men are condemned (e.g., Matt. 15:2–6; Mark 7:8–13; Col. 2:8). Of course, Catholics agree with this. But it’s not the whole truth. True, apostolic Tradition also is endorsed positively. This Tradition is in total harmony with and consistent with Scripture.
Can you give an example of a particular apostolic tradition not found in scripture?
 
Kay Cee:
Read the website and loved it. However, in #29, you want affect, not *effect. Effect *as a verb means to produce a result. Affect as a verb means to produce a change.

Sorry, but I can’t help it! It’s the former English teacher in me coming out!
I can use the extra set of eyes, thanks!

BH
 
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