What evidence?

[tonyrey]

Moses was referencing the miracles that G-D did, NOT the miracles that he did. To answer your first question–"On what basis would a person claim divinity?–there is, according to Judaism, NO basis on which a person would claim divinity!

Don’t Jews believe the Messiah is sent by God to work the miracle of saving the world?

 

[meltzerboy]

Don’t Jews believe the Messiah is sent by God to work the miracle of saving the world?

Not exactly saving the world but more intensification of the study of the Law in the Jews’ homeland, which is, for Jews, the New (Renewed) Covenant. Concurrently, all nations will come to realize the existence of G-d and live together peacefully on earth, if that is what you mean by saving the world. But not salvation in the Christian Catholic sense of the beatific vision among the communion of saints in heaven.

 

[mkoopman]

The actual event is not in question. The explanation is where the problem occurs. We are faced with the so-called boundary problem. The event occurred in the physical realm, the cause in the non-physical one.

Let’s look at a specific example, the transubstantiation. The starting piece is the bread, and the wine. The ending piece is the actual body and blood of Jesus (which part?). Both are in this physical realm, but all the evidence shows that they are just bread and wine. So the claim of “miracle” is not born …

Well, we can try the angels, if you want. There are “guardian angels”, according to the mythology. They are supposed to be “guarding” us… and yet, there is no evidence.

.

Your comment reminded me that I have this tangible evidence of my guardian angel which evidence is still remaining alive. Of course the skeptical atheist would not only argue that my experience is nonsensical hearsay but would require more evidence that I am actually living. Perhaps I am just a qualia in the skeptics mind.

I did not accept the existence of my guardian angel despite a lack of any other answer to my survival against grievous odds. So convincing the invincibly ignorant is only possible by a response to the Holy Spirit. This is my prayer for conversion that the blind are led to see as Paul did when going before Barnabus.

God is goodness itself and omniscient with the greatest good as His will. The demanding atheist would either not be convinced even if the event that is stated as a requirement for believing in God were to occur or, as is more likely, the occurrence of this event would not lead to the greatest good. God gave the atheist life and has counted every hair on her head. That is, God is calling this atheist to union with Himself and waits like the father of the prodigal son. The heart of the atheist is the key to knowing God and the joy of our ultimate end. What physical evidence can impart this truth of our nature as creatures of special creation? There is none.

These Eucharistic Miracles may be the closest approximation of such evidence, however.

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2017/06/15/how-eucharistic-miracles-show-christs-blood-type/d

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2017/06/15/how-eucharistic-miracles-show-christs-blood-type/

 

[reggieM]

Not exactly saving the world but more intensification of the study of the Law in the Jews’ homeland, which is, for Jews, the New (Renewed) Covenant. Concurrently, all nations will come to realize the existence of G-d and live together peacefully on earth, if that is what you mean by saving the world. But not salvation in the Christian Catholic sense of the beatific vision among the communion of saints in heaven.

How would the Messiah be recognized without miracles?

 

[reggieM]

Thank you, Tony!

 

[meltzerboy]

How would the Messiah be recognized without miracles?

Judaism believes that the Messiah is to accomplish certain tangible things, including, as I have mentioned, bringing Jews to a more intensive studying and understanding of the Law (this itself may be considered nothing less than a minor miracle!); the ingathering of the Hebrew tribes back to their homeland, that is, Israel; the establishment of the Third Temple in Jerusalem; and, perhaps most important of all, the recognition among all the nations of the world of the existence and truth of the Abrahamic G-d so that they may live with one another in peace rather than endless war and strife. No forced conversion to Judaism is necessary, however, or even desirable. All of these things MUST be achieved by the Messiah during his own lifetime; there is no concept of the Second Coming in Judaism. If an individual does NOT achieve all of these things, then, according to Jewish belief, he cannot be the Messiah.

 

[reggieM]

Judaism believes that the Messiah is to accomplish certain tangible things, including, as I have mentioned, bringing Jews to a more intensive studying and understanding of the Law (this itself may be considered nothing less than a minor miracle!); the ingathering of the Hebrew tribes back to their homeland, that is, Israel; the establishment of the Third Temple in Jerusalem; and, perhaps most important of all, the recognition among all the nations of the world of the existence and truth of the Abrahamic G-d so that they may live with one another in peace rather than endless war and strife. No forced conversion to Judaism is necessary, however, or even desirable. All of these things MUST be achieved by the Messiah during his own lifetime; there is no concept of the Second Coming in Judaism. If an individual does NOT achieve all of these things, then, according to Jewish belief, he cannot be the Messiah.

Ok, thanks. If a person did all of those things, then would that mean necessarily that he is the Messiah?
In other words, would there be any reason to seek a Messiah, knowing that one could not be certain he was the Messiah unless an entire transformation of the world occurred? And if that transformation occurred - what role would the Messiah serve and why would anyone need to recognize him as such?

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Your comment reminded me that I have this tangible evidence of my guardian angel which evidence is still remaining alive. Of course the skeptical atheist would not only argue that my experience is nonsensical hearsay but would require more evidence that I am actually living.

Not even the church accepts such an anecdotal story as evidence. You might be convinced, but do not expect anyone else to accept it.

What physical evidence can impart this truth of our nature as creatures of special creation? There is none.

Sure there can be. God could manifest himself to the skeptic, and answer a few questions. Of course the usual “answer” to that is that God is not obligated to do it - which is just nonsense. I do not “demand it”, I don’t even ask for it, I just answer the question: “what would be convincing evidence for me”?

There is a very irritating quotation floating around. It says: “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary. For those don’t, no evidence is sufficient”. Extremely insulting and very dumb answer. Is God unable to present a “miracle” similar to the one on the road to Damascus?

These Eucharistic Miracles may be the closest approximation of such evidence, however.

Any half-competent stage magician can repeat that “miracle”.

 

[tonyrey]

Don’t Jews believe the Messiah is sent by God to work the miracle of saving the world?

The diabolical injustice in this world will never be rectified if the Messiah’s mission is restricted to study of the Law and to what happens in this world. None of the victims killed in the Holocaust will benefit in the slightest from his intervention nor does Israel seem to be promoting peace and harmony in the Holy Land, let alone elsewhere.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The diabolical injustice in this world will never be rectified if the Messiah’s mission is restricted to study of the Law and to what happens in this world. None of the victims killed in the Holocaust will benefit in the slightest from his intervention nor does Israel seem to be promoting peace and harmony in the Holy Land, let alone elsewhere./QUOTE:thumbsup:

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The diabolical injustice in this world will never be rectified if the Messiah’s mission is restricted to study of the Law and to what happens in this world. None of the victims killed in the Holocaust will benefit in the slightest from his intervention nor does Israel seem to be promoting peace and harmony in the Holy Land, let alone elsewhere.

 

[reggieM]

The diabolical injustice in this world will never be rectified if the Messiah’s mission is restricted to study of the Law and to what happens in this world. None of the victims killed in the Holocaust will benefit in the slightest from his intervention nor does Israel seem to be promoting peace and harmony in the Holy Land, let alone elsewhere.

Ditto to Christine’s thumbs-up (she gave two so that’s four for me). And at the same time, appreciating meltzerboy’s comments on this thread.

Given that mission of the supposed Messiah, we would have a greater study of the Law, a select group of people going to Israel, a temple being built and the entire world practicing the Jewish religion (although most not of Jewish ethnicity so there would remain a class-distinction) and world peace.

But as long as there is still sin, suffering and death - can there be world peace?
Beyond that, as tony points out, there is no reconciliation of God and man in this scenario.

Regarding the role of Israel today in the world, to me that seems so problematic that it can’t even be considered as part of a plan. Some Orthodox Jews do not accept the current state of Israel as a divinely established entity (that does seem logical in my view).

And - this is challenging - but overall, is the Jewish religion a visible and significant force for growth, development and goodness in the world today? Or is it not more simply a preservation of a people and a culture?

 

[meltzerboy]

The diabolical injustice in this world will never be rectified if the Messiah’s mission is restricted to study of the Law and to what happens in this world. None of the victims killed in the Holocaust will benefit in the slightest from his intervention nor does Israel seem to be promoting peace and harmony in the Holy Land, let alone elsewhere.

If Israel is not “promoting peace and harmony in the Holy Land” or “elsewhere,” as you state, and, I would add, most Jews in Israel are secular rather than religious, both of these things are as sure an indication as any other that the Messiah has not yet come.

Insofar as the power of the studying of the Law is concerned, I must disagree. On the contrary, studying and understanding the lessons conveyed by the Holy Books can indeed work miracles in our disturbed world. But ONLY, as the Oral Torah itself reminds us, if what is studied and learned is PRACTICED in our daily lives: “The ultimate is not in the studying, but in the doing.” lf the latter is performed, then and only then will the millennia-old hope of the brotherhood and sisterhood and peace of humanity begin to be realized. The Messiah is conceived of as a means to facilitate this behavior, not only among the Jews but also among the nations of the world.

With regard to the victims of the Holocaust, no one but no one, including the Messiah or any other individual, can do anything for them in terms of restoring them to life. We do believe in prayers for the cleansing of the souls of the dead, however. But only G-d Himself can welcome them into His heavenly kingdom.

 

[tonyrey]

If Israel is not “promoting peace and harmony in the Holy Land” or “elsewhere,” as you state, and, I would add, most Jews in Israel are secular rather than religious, both of these things are as sure an indication as any other that the Messiah has not yet come.

Insofar as the power of the studying of the Law is concerned, I must disagree. On the contrary, studying and understanding the lessons conveyed by the Holy Books can indeed work miracles in our disturbed world. But ONLY, as the Oral Torah itself reminds us, if what is studied and learned is PRACTICED in our daily lives: “The ultimate is not in the studying, but in the doing.” lf the latter is performed, then and only then will the millennia-old hope of the brotherhood and sisterhood and peace of humanity begin to be realized. The Messiah is conceived of as a means to facilitate this behavior, not only among the Jews but also among the nations of the world.

With regard to the victims of the Holocaust, no one but no one, including the Messiah or any other individual, can do anything for them in terms of restoring them to life. We do believe in prayers for the cleansing of the souls of the dead, however. But only G-d Himself can welcome them into His heavenly kingdom.

I sympathise with your view now that you have clarified that the Messiah has not yet come (although Jesus seems to have fulfilled the prophecies) but we seem to be straying from the topic of evidence. If Jews don’t believe miracles occur the Creator seems to be a distant deity who isn’t concerned about what happens on this planet and never intervenes to help or guide the human race. Modern Judaism appears to be closer to deism than it was when the Old Testament was written…

 

[STT]

The question comes up periodically when there is a conversation between a Christian and an atheist.

Christian: “What would be a sufficient evidence for you to accept God’s existence?”
Atheist: “I would accept some kind of physical evidence”.
Christian: “That is ridiculous. God is not a physical being.”
Atheist: “I heard that God can manifest himself in a human form. Is it not true?”
Christian: “Yes, it is true”. “But how dare you demand that God should be at your beck and call?”.
Atheist: “I did not demand anything. You asked a question, and I replied”.

Are you interested in playing the role of that Christian?

Christian: Perhaps you start asking tons of other questions to make sure that the being who pretend to be God is really God. You hear the answers. So what? Honestly there is no joy in this. I really like it mysterious.

 

[goout]

Christian: Perhaps you start asking tons of other questions to make sure that the being who pretend to be God is really God. You hear the answers. So what? Honestly there is no joy in this. I really like it mysterious.

Irony. Only you could have said this.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Somehow that “extremely well documented” only convinces those who already believe. As for manifesting himself when someone asks for it (asking is not demanding - for your edification), should not be too difficult for him. The “silentium Dei” is the other huge obstacle for accepting God, next to the “problem of evil”.

I guess you are seriously confused about the word: “demand” (just like with “well documented”). It is pretty disheartening to see so many people who are not familiar with such simple words… (Maybe you are a deacon, but not a beacon to enlighten others. )

 

[meltzerboy]

I sympathise with your view now that you have clarified that the Messiah has not yet come (although Jesus seems to have fulfilled the prophecies) but we seem to be straying from the topic of evidence. If Jews don’t believe miracles occur the Creator seems to be a distant deity who isn’t concerned about what happens on this planet and never intervenes to help or guide the human race. Modern Judaism appears to be closer to deism than it was when the Old Testament was written…

I did not say that Jews do not believe miracles occur. I did say that Jews are taught to be wary of miracles as proof of evidence that G-d exists and is working in the world, and that pertains largely to the miracles of a huge scope, such as resurrection of the dead. But personal miracles in one’s own life, that is a different sort. In my own life, I sincerely believe that G-d has worked His miracles, and many, many people of all faiths believe as much.

 

[tonyrey]

I did not say that Jews do not believe miracles occur. I did say that Jews are taught to be wary of miracles as proof of evidence that G-d exists and is working in the world, and that pertains largely to the miracles of a huge scope, such as resurrection of the dead. But personal miracles in one’s own life, that is a different sort. In my own life, I sincerely believe that G-d has worked His miracles, and many, many people of all faiths believe as much.

I’m delighted Jews believe miracles occur but it seems a pity the latter are not regarded as evidence of divine intervention. There is an excellent article: “Bodily resurrection is a plausible development within the evidence of the Old Testament itself”:

perspectivedigest.org/article/163/archives/20-2/the-resurrection-and-the-old-testament

The well-known words of Job are also relevant: “In my flesh I shall see God”.

 

[goout]

The “silentium Dei” is the other huge obstacle for accepting God, next to the “problem of evil”.

If you don’t have a problem with the good, why would you have a problem with evil?
Given this lack of rational coherence, (or lack of wholeness in your life perspective), you come off as an ungrateful whiner who is relentlessly pessimistic.
I’m sure that is not the case, but that’s how it comes off.

Explain the good please, along with the problem of evil. Hold Him accountable for everything, since you are the chief accountant here.