What evil in 1830? St. Catherine Labouré

[atassina]

July 18, 1830 in Paris, France. Blessed Mother.

Our Lady said to St. Catherine:
*
“God wishes to charge
you with a mission. You will be
contradicted, but do not fear;
you will have the grace to do what is
necessary . . . Times are evil in
France and in the world.”

“Graces will be shed on all,
great and little, especially
upon those who seek for them.”*

What great evil was happening in the world?

 

[Path_Finder]

Secularism and Materialism even if a Religious Revival was occurring.

 

[atassina]

Understood- - just like today. God sent our holy Mother as a missionary even a century in advance of the enormous evils of the 20th century. a

 

[fencersmother]

The translation of the plates found by Joseph Smith was completed in 1830.

 

[glendab]

Hello Atassina.

July 18, 1830 in Paris, France. Blessed Mother.

Our Lady said to St. Catherine:
*
“God wishes to charge
you with a mission. You will be
contradicted, but do not fear;
you will have the grace to do what is
necessary . . . Times are evil in
France and in the world.”

“Graces will be shed on all,
great and little, especially
upon those who seek for them.”*

What great evil was happening in the world?

I have no idea what evil she meant, but the cake surely looks yummy! Chocolate cake will never be evil, even the Devil’s Food variety.

Glenda

 

[Saint_Cunigunde]

Charles X, the last man to be crowned and anointed King of France, was forced to abdicated in 1830.
When are you people going to realise that God is a monarchist?

 

[Della]

Charles X, the last man to be crowned and anointed King of France, was forced to abdicated in 1830.
When are you people going to realise that God is a monarchist?

Well, it’s more probably that in being forced to abdicate the secularists triumphed. France has gone decidely downhill spiritually, morally, and politically since. It’s a warning to all of the West to try to reinculturate it back to its Catholic roots and morals.

 

[boomerang]

Hello Atassina.

I have no idea what evil she meant, but the cake surely looks yummy! Chocolate cake will never be evil, even the Devil’s Food variety.

Glenda

Funny how the most delicious cake was named after the devil, and a very bland cake was named for angels. Should be the other way around.

 

[randomusername]

Charles X, the last man to be crowned and anointed King of France, was forced to abdicated in 1830.
When are you people going to realise that God is a monarchist?

I’d imagine, although I am only guessing, that God liked how Catholic monarchs in the past protected Catholicism in their countries. Often times after Catholic monarchs were ousted, the countries would become much less Catholic and much more secular.

So I reckon that God liked how these monarchs protected Catholicism more than the actual political system itself.

 

[Auntie_A]

The translation of the plates found by Joseph Smith was completed in 1830.

I need to add the words “supposedly” found by Joseph Smith. No one else ever saw them.

Also, the 1800’s was the beginning of Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, as well as Mormon. While I find many of the practices to be interesting, and in many cases healthy lifestyles, the beliefs and changes in biblical translations and stories have splintered more of the original Church’s foundations in certain circles.

Zionism went through a big push in the 1800’s.

The strong influence of Hinduism on Western thought began in the 1800s.

I’m not sure if any of these things are significant alone, but put them into a spread of fifty years and it looks overwhelming.

 

[GEddie]

Zionism went through a big push in the 1800’s…any of these things [may or may not] significant alone, but put them into a spread of fifty years and it looks overwhelming.

While technically true, Zionism was not declared until 1897.

While still in the 1800s, this is almost a lifetime after 1830.

And the inclusion of Zionism in the discussion of “great world evils” suggests that Zionism was such an evil. IMNAAHO, there is no reason to say so.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Path_Finder]

I need to add the words “supposedly” found by Joseph Smith. No one else ever saw them.

Also, the 1800’s was the beginning of Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, as well as Mormon. While I find many of the practices to be interesting, and in many cases healthy lifestyles, the beliefs and changes in biblical translations and stories have splintered more of the original Church’s foundations in certain circles.

Zionism went through a big push in the 1800’s.

The strong influence of Hinduism on Western thought began in the 1800s.

I’m not sure if any of these things are significant alone, but put them into a spread of fifty years and it looks overwhelming.

I would definitely be looking at the Malaise as they call it of that time vs. a certain year.

Let’s see, 1830:

LDS founded.

**Mary had a little lamb published.
**
Ecuador gains Independence.

France invaded Algeria.

spiritus-temporis.com/1830/

I do think France is known for Secularism and that was a bit of an export and that was due to their revolution but I’m not an expert in French history, obviously, Napoleon came to power.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Charles X, the last man to be crowned and anointed King of France, was forced to abdicated in 1830.
When are you people going to realise that God is a monarchist?

When the Catholic Church finally admits that it’s not a big fan of human freedom.

Hence, I do hope you’re joking.

 

[EIF5A]

I would definitely be looking at the Malaise as they call it of that time vs. a certain year.

Let’s see, 1830:

LDS founded.

**Mary had a little lamb published.
**
Ecuador gains Independence.

France invaded Algeria.

spiritus-temporis.com/1830/

I do think France is known for Secularism and that was a bit of an export and that was due to their revolution but I’m not an expert in French history, obviously, Napoleon came to power.

Wait…is that poem evil?

I never thought about that poem in context of religion until now…

 

[glendab]

Hello Boomerang.

Funny how the most delicious cake was named after the devil, and a very bland cake was named for angels. Should be the other way around.

The only evil I know of associated with chocolate is its ability to multiply. How does chocolate multiply you ask, it is after all an inanimate object with no rational thoughts therefore it cannot do math. NO! That isn’t so! I’ll tell you how to find out about the ability of chocolate to multiply. Buy a one pound box of your favorite brand of chocolate, I recommend Godiva. Weigh yourself and then eat that one little pound in two days. Then weigh in again and I guarantee you’ll be five pounds heavier! Chocolate multiplication tables.

Glenda

P.S. It never fails when I do it.

 

[Della]

When the Catholic Church finally admits that it’s not a big fan of human freedom.

Hence, I do hope you’re joking.

I don’t believe God wishes humanity to be under any monarch except himself, either. But, a monarchy does not ipso facto deprive people of freedoms. That depends on how the monarch’s government is formed. Even under absolute monarchies the king/queen/emperor couldn’t just do whatever s/he wanted without his/her nobles to back up him/her’s decisions. There is nothing inherently wrong with be subject to a lord/king/queen, etc. Individualism is no more holy than being a subject. The sin comes in how government leaders treat those under their authority.

The problem with secularism is that it denies people religious freedom. In 1830 secularism was on the rise in France and across Europe. St. Bernadette was persecuted by secularists who wished to squash her visions less than two decades later. They went so far as to threaten her and her family with imprisonment and starvation, and even tried to have her commited as insane just to stop people from going to the site of her visions. So it was the rise of secularism that was one of the evils Our Lady warned St. Catherine Laboure about.

 

[Saint_Cunigunde]

I don’t believe God wishes humanity to be under any monarch except himself, either.

The model and archetype for any earthly kingship is that of Christ the King. And as the “First Laymen of the Realm”, Catholic Kings had a quasi-priestly role. The Holy Roman Emperor(King of Germany) a Canon of Saint Peter’s; the King of France was a Canon of Saint John Lateran and of Saint Peter’s(this title is technically held by the President of the French Republic, but no French President that I am aware of has actually acted as deacon or sub-deacon in Papal masses, like the Kings of France sometimes did); the King of England was the Canon of Saint Paul Outside the Walls.

But, a monarchy does not ipso facto deprive people of freedoms. That depends on how the monarch’s government is formed. Even under absolute monarchies the king/queen/emperor couldn’t just do whatever s/he wanted without his/her nobles to back up him/her’s decisions. There is nothing inherently wrong with be subject to a lord/king/queen, etc.

For well over 1000 years the Church gave its approval of the institution of monarchy by crowning and anointing kings with with sacred oil. I have heard people say, and I suspect that many more believe, that the “modern church” is one of democracy and freedom, etc., blah, blah, blah…
You cannot escape the fact that the Church explicitly condoned and endorsed monarchy, and conferred many graces to many different men(and women)

Here is the coronation oath from the most recent Pontificale Romanum to contain coronation rites(pre-1968).

Latin:
Ego N. Deo annuente, futurus Rex N. profiteor, et promitto coram Deo et Angelis ejus deinceps legem, justitiam et pacem
Ecclesiae Dei, populoque mihi subjecto pro posse et nosse, facere ac servare, salvo condigno misericordiae Dei respectu,
sicut in consilio fidelium meorum melius potero invenire. Pontificibus quoque Ecclesiarum Dei, condignum et canonicum
honorem exhibere; atque ea, quae ab Imperatoribus, et Regibus Ecclesiis collata, et reddita sunt, inviolabiliter observare.
Abbatibus, Comitibus et Vasaliis meis congruum honorem, secundum consilium fidelium meorum praestare.

English:
I, N., with God’s consent the future King N., profess and promise in the presence of God and his Angels to bring about and
maintain law, justice and peace, as far as I am able to do so, in the Church of God and in the nation subject to me,
having a fitting respect for the mercy of God, as best I can devise in accordance with the counsel of my faithful subjects.
I will also give due and canonical honour to the Bishops of the Churches of God and preserve involate those things
which have been conferred upon and rendered to the Churches by Emperors and Kings. I will give fitting honour to my
Abbots, Counts and Vassals in accordance with the counsel of my faithful subjects.

Sources:
youtube.com/watch?v=pNqTNgjiyUE (Wise and helpful lecture on Chivalry)
Pontificale Romanum
religiousstudiesblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/traditional-catholic-coronation-rite.html

 

[Della]

The model and archetype for any earthly kingship is that of Christ the King. And as the “First Laymen of the Realm”, Catholic Kings had a quasi-priestly role. The Holy Roman Emperor(King of Germany) a Canon of Saint Peter’s; the King of France was a Canon of Saint John Lateran and of Saint Peter’s(this title is technically held by the President of the French Republic, but no French President that I am aware of has actually acted as deacon or sub-deacon in Papal masses, like the Kings of France sometimes did); the King of England was the Canon of Saint Paul Outside the Walls.

For well over 1000 years the Church gave its approval of the institution of monarchy by crowning and anointing kings with with sacred oil. I have heard people say, and I suspect that many more believe, that the “modern church” is one of democracy and freedom, etc., blah, blah, blah…
You cannot escape the fact that the Church explicitly condoned and endorsed monarchy, and conferred many graces to many different men(and women)

Here is the coronation oath from the most recent Pontificale Romanum to contain coronation rites(pre-1968).

Latin:
Ego N. Deo annuente, futurus Rex N. profiteor, et promitto coram Deo et Angelis ejus deinceps legem, justitiam et pacem
Ecclesiae Dei, populoque mihi subjecto pro posse et nosse, facere ac servare, salvo condigno misericordiae Dei respectu,
sicut in consilio fidelium meorum melius potero invenire. Pontificibus quoque Ecclesiarum Dei, condignum et canonicum
honorem exhibere; atque ea, quae ab Imperatoribus, et Regibus Ecclesiis collata, et reddita sunt, inviolabiliter observare.
Abbatibus, Comitibus et Vasaliis meis congruum honorem, secundum consilium fidelium meorum praestare.

English:
I, N., with God’s consent the future King N., profess and promise in the presence of God and his Angels to bring about and
maintain law, justice and peace, as far as I am able to do so, in the Church of God and in the nation subject to me,
having a fitting respect for the mercy of God, as best I can devise in accordance with the counsel of my faithful subjects.
I will also give due and canonical honour to the Bishops of the Churches of God and preserve involate those things
which have been conferred upon and rendered to the Churches by Emperors and Kings. I will give fitting honour to my
Abbots, Counts and Vassals in accordance with the counsel of my faithful subjects.

Sources:
youtube.com/watch?v=pNqTNgjiyUE (Wise and helpful lecture on Chivalry)
Pontificale Romanum
religiousstudiesblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/traditional-catholic-coronation-rite.html

I know all this. But monarchies aren’t more holy or acceptable merely because the Church crowned kings. They were crowned because they were Catholic monarchs, vowing to uphold the teachings of the Church not because they had an inherent right to rule.

Democracy is no different in that it is a form of human government. What is misunderstood by many is that civil govenments are not remedies nor are they benefits, rather they are necessary to keep men from overrunning each other’s rights and dignity. When any government fails in doing that, be it a monarchy, a democracy, or representative republic it becomes useless to the people it is meant to protect. Civil governments rise and fall. History is replete with examples. Only God’s rule is everlasting and sure since it is divine and does more then merely safeguard man’s rights and dignity, it also feeds us, sustains us, and saves us. Something no earthly monarch or goverment is equipped by nature or by God to do.

We are going off topic now. If you wish to carry on this discussion I’ll join you in a new thread in the proper form. :tiphat:

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I know all this. But monarchies aren’t more holy or acceptable merely because the Church crowned kings. They were crowned because they were Catholic monarchs, vowing to uphold the teachings of the Church not because they had an inherent right to rule.

Democracy is no different in that it is a form of human government. What is misunderstood by many is that civil govenments are not remedies nor are they benefits, rather they are necessary to keep men from overrunning each other’s rights and dignity. When any government fails in doing that, be it a monarchy, a democracy, or representative republic it becomes useless to the people it is meant to protect. Civil governments rise and fall. History is replete with examples. Only God’s rule is everlasting and sure since it is divine and does more then merely safeguard man’s rights and dignity, it also feeds us, sustains us, and saves us. Something no earthly monarch or goverment is equipped by nature or by God to do.

Stating that democracy is no different than a monarchy is not the case if you look at the history of the world.

Democracies, or a representative form of government elected through a democratic process as we have, is by the people, not an individual.

Monarchies ruled by an individual with absolute power and succession was determined because of birth, not because of wisdom of the one who gained the crown of King or Queen.

Kings mostly didn’t have to answer to noble councils. Even Henry VIII suspended the Magna Carter and was a monster.

Monarchies were mostly evil and rarely just.

The Church mostly danced around monarchies in order to be allowed to exists, and often, leaders of the Church were in bed with the nobility in order to keep their power and privilege.

Democracies aren’t always free from evil, the recent elections of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is an example.

The main problem in all of this is, true democracy is a relatively new concept and it exists in few places of the world.

Jim

 

[Della]

Stating that democracy is no different than a monarchy is not the case if you look at the history of the world.

Democracies, or a representative form of government elected through a democratic process as we have, is by the people, not an individual.

Monarchies ruled by an individual with absolute power and succession was determined because of birth, not because of wisdom of the one who gained the crown of King or Queen.

Kings mostly didn’t have to answer to noble councils. Even Henry VIII suspended the Magna Carter and was a monster.

Monarchies were mostly evil and rarely just.

The Church mostly danced around monarchies in order to be allowed to exists, and often, leaders of the Church were in bed with the nobility in order to keep their power and privilege.

Democracies aren’t always free from evil, the recent elections of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is an example.

The main problem in all of this is, true democracy is a relatively new concept and it exists in few places of the world.

Jim

They are no different in that they are formed by man and have limited attributes. Of course they are different forms of government. Neither, being created by man, is or can be perfect.