What exactly does "for many" in new trans mean?

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Didn’t Christ die for everyone? Sure not all accept it, but is the mass now really saying that he only died for many people, not all people?

I understand the new words go back to improving the original translation but I want to know what, given that the translation is now more accurate, it is really saying. Seems like this is a major major point of our faith and I don’t understand it now.
 
I suggest the book Mystical Body, Mystical Voice by Christopher Carstens or the booklet A Biblical Walk Through Mass by Edward Sri to help you understand the new translation.
 
Didn’t Christ die for everyone? Sure not all accept it, but is the mass now really saying that he only died for many people, not all people?

I understand the new words go back to improving the original translation but I want to know what, given that the translation is now more accurate, it is really saying. Seems like this is a major major point of our faith and I don’t understand it now.
See this account of a 2006 letter from Cardinal Arinze dealing with this very controversy. Read the whole thing. Pro multis is a faithful rendering of the Gospel. “For Many” is a faithful translation of “pro multis.” The theological validity of “pro multis” vs “pro omnibus” (from the letter) is as follows:

e. The expression “for many”, while remaining open to the inclusion of each human person, is reflective also of the fact that this salvation is not brought about in some mechanistic way, without one’s willing or participation; rather, the believer is invited to accept in faith the gift that is being offered and to receive the supernatural life that is given to those who participate in this mystery, living it out in their lives as well so as to be numbered among the “many” to whom the text refers.
 
See this account of a 2006 letter from Cardinal Arinze dealing with this very controversy. Read the whole thing. Pro multis is a faithful rendering of the Gospel. “For Many” is a faithful translation of “pro multis.” The theological validity of “pro multis” vs “pro omnibus” (from the letter) is as follows:

e. The expression “for many”, while remaining open to the inclusion of each human person, is reflective also of the fact that this salvation is not brought about in some mechanistic way, without one’s willing or participation; rather, the believer is invited to accept in faith the gift that is being offered and to receive the supernatural life that is given to those who participate in this mystery, living it out in their lives as well so as to be numbered among the “many” to whom the text refers.
Yep, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world, but some people just won’t accept His sacrifice and devote themselves to following Him.
 
For many acknowledges the sad truth that while all are offered the chance for salvation, not all with accept and embrace it.
 
For many acknowledges the sad truth that while all are offered the chance for salvation, not all with accept and embrace it.
OK, I understand this as I mentioned in the OP. But the way it sounds now I think ppl are going to wonder what exactly we are saying. It sounds like it’s not OFFERED to everyone now. 🤷
 
See this account of a 2006 letter from Cardinal Arinze dealing with this very controversy. Read the whole thing. Pro multis is a faithful rendering of the Gospel. “For Many” is a faithful translation of “pro multis.” The theological validity of “pro multis” vs “pro omnibus” (from the letter) is as follows:

e. The expression “for many”, while remaining open to the inclusion of each human person, is reflective also of the fact that this salvation is not brought about in some mechanistic way, without one’s willing or participation; rather, the believer is invited to accept in faith the gift that is being offered and to receive the supernatural life that is given to those who participate in this mystery, living it out in their lives as well so as to be numbered among the “many” to whom the text refers.
Got it. Thanks.
 
I suggest the book Mystical Body, Mystical Voice by Christopher Carstens or the booklet A Biblical Walk Through Mass by Edward Sri to help you understand the new translation.
Excellent book! We read it, and Father gave lectures on the chapters.

Dr Sri’s book, I’m still reading. I like his conversational style.
 
There is also much material provided for us on the US Bishops’ website under “Roman Missal”. In the “Order of the Mass Annotated” section it refers to Mt 26:27-28, Mk 14:24, Is 52:13-53:12 at this point in the Liturgy.

The FAQ there also has Six Questions on the Translation of Pro Multis as “For Many” saying "Of all the changes in the translation of the Roman Missal, the translation of pro multis as “for many” may require the most significant explanation and sensitive pastoral catechesis. "
 
Its an unfortunate difficulty translating it into english. “the Multitudes” would probably have been best, but apparently “the many” is the most literal.

The church teaches that everyone is offered salvation, but not everyone will accept it - and this is, fairly obviously, the Biblical truth.

But when rendered into English, you’re correct, “the many” seems to indicate an exclusivity to the offering, in addition to the acceptance.
 
“For many” is a Semiticism for “for all”. It doesn’t imply a Calvinist doctrine of salvation, although the misinterpreting of the verse in literal English, Latin and French translation is part of what gave rise to Calvin’s heresy. It’s poetic, and it’s how Jesus and the evangelists spoke, and the exact words inspired by the Holy Spirit do many times have meanings beyond what is accessible on the surface.

A dynamic translation (“translating the ‘meaning’ instead of the ‘words’”: Jerome’s translation is hyper-literal, much like the Pentateuch and Sirach in the Septuagint) would be justified in translating “pro multibus” as “for all”, but would lose the nuance of implied synergism/prevenient grace/free-will rejection of God’s gift, and, like the Calvinistic interpretation of “for many”, “for all” opens itself up to a Universalist interpretation - one of the many reasons we need the mind of the Church to interpret Scripture.
 
Didn’t Christ die for everyone? Sure not all accept it, but is the mass now really saying that he only died for many people, not all people?

I understand the new words go back to improving the original translation but I want to know what, given that the translation is now more accurate, it is really saying. Seems like this is a major major point of our faith and I don’t understand it now.
Although I haven’t visited in a month, I read a blog by Father Dwight Longenecker. Today, I went to the blog; to catch up on his entries, and Father has commented on this very topic. His comments are thought-provoking.

I hope it helps your understanding:

gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2011/11/all-or-many-real-problem.html
 
Its an unfortunate difficulty translating it into english. “the Multitudes” would probably have been best, but apparently “the many” is the most literal.
“multitudes” is a cognate of multis and can be considered most literal as well.

“Many” is not wrong but remember in Latin multus is only a positive, plus is comparative, and plurimus is superlative, all three which can be translated as “many.” “Many” IMO is too broad, it could be 1% or 100%, such as e pluribus unum, “out of many, one.”
 
As has been touched upon, it has to do with Sufficiency and Efficiency. This condensed explaination is succinctly explained in the “Roman Catechism”, also called “The Catechism of the Council of Trent” in the Eucharist section.
It explains why Christ intentionally used words equivalent to “for many”, and not “for all”. While his redemptive act on the cross is sufficient to save ALL men, the fact of the matter is that it will only be efficient in saving “the MANY”, those that will do his will, keep his commnandments and die in a state of grace.
Chirst being God knows that the Mass, when all is said and done, will have only eternally benefitted those who were his true disciples-those who die as a friend, not an enemy of God. Those who die as enemies demonstrated that they have no use for Christ and His Church or sacraments.
Do not give what is holy to dogs. Do not throw pearls before swine. These all come to mind when speaking of this subject.
This is good to meditate on, and also should give us a renewed impetus to try to show others, especially non-Catholics, that there is one true God and he has a plan as to how he wants to be worshipped. Doing our own thing(to whomsoever it applies), claiming we are Christians when we do not respond to the call of the Shepherd Jesus Christ to join the Church he founded can only have dire consequences that one gets judged upon.
I hope this has shed a little light on an important subject with far-reaching implications.

Joe
 
OK, I understand this as I mentioned in the OP. But the way it sounds now I think ppl are going to wonder what exactly we are saying. It sounds like it’s not OFFERED to everyone now. 🤷
Really? You think that is the big risk in our culture today? Isn’t it perhaps far more prevalent in our culture that everybody who even gives it a thought presumes he is going to heaven. Have you been to a funeral in recent decades that did NOT resemble a cannonization?

The danger in our culture is NOT that people will think they cannot be saved, it is that they have no troubling fear of hell whatsoever.
 
Really? You think that is the big risk in our culture today? Isn’t it perhaps far more prevalent in our culture that everybody who even gives it a thought presumes he is going to heaven. Have you been to a funeral in recent decades that did NOT resemble a cannonization?

The danger in our culture is NOT that people will think they cannot be saved, it is that they have no troubling fear of hell whatsoever.
I agree. Both forms require explanation. Regardless of that, this is a translation and the source language is clearly “for many”.

By far the most dangerous wording is “for all”. Many people, Catholic and Protestant, seem to believe “I am saved! Hooray!” then proceed to ignore God and His will at their eternal peril.
 
Didn’t Christ die for everyone? Sure not all accept it, but is the mass now really saying that he only died for many people, not all people?

I understand the new words go back to improving the original translation but I want to know what, given that the translation is now more accurate, it is really saying. Seems like this is a major major point of our faith and I don’t understand it now.
“The Many” is actually very theologically rich. It ties in with the prophetic hopes of the restoration of the lost tribes intermingled with the gentiles during the Babylonian exile. This is also where “ransom” imagery derives from. God will “ransom” “the many” similar to the ransom of His people from Egypt, essentially recapitulating in a New Exodus.

Recall that one of the promises to Abraham was that all nations would be blessed through his seed. At the time of the exile, the northern tribes were forced to leave and intermingled with the pagans of the land. The only way for God to restore Israel would be to bring salvation to the Gentiles as well, which in the process fulfilled a much older covenant promise to Abraham.

If you want to get REALLY geeky, there is excellent scholarly work done by Dr. Brant Pitre showing that early Jewish understanding of the “tribulation” was an ending of the exile by the death of the messiah, which would ransom the “many” and usher in the tribulation, resulting in the atonement for the sins of Israel, and their exodus from bondage and sin. Read “Jesus, the tribulation, and the end of the exile: Restoration eschatology and the origin of the atonement.” It covers a very Orthodox Catholic position using the historical critical method on interrelated passages in the prophets, gospels, and Daniel in particular.

Here are a few examples of this language:

Mark 10:45: "For the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a **ransom **for many.”

Daniel 9:24-27: "Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and for your holy city: Then transgression will stop and sin will end, guilt will be expiated, Everlasting justice will be introduced, vision and prophecy ratified, and a holy of holies will be anointed. Know and understand: From the utterance of the word that Jerusalem was to be rebuilt. Until there is an anointed ruler, there shall be seven weeks. In the course of sixty-two weeks it shall be rebuilt, With squares and trenches, in time of affliction. After the sixty-two weeks an anointed one*(messiah) shall be cut down with no one to help him. And the people of a leader who will come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. His end shall come in a flood; until the end of the war, which is decreed, there will be desolation. For one week* he shall make a firm covenant with the many; Half the week he shall abolish sacrifice and offering; In their place shall be the desolating abomination until the ruin that is decreed is poured out upon the desolator.”

The above passage has many points in contact with the context of the short passage in Mark given above. “Flood” imagery corresponds well with the baptism imagery in Mark, etc.

Read Isaiah 53 about the “suffering servant,” but pay close attention to these passages in particular: “Because of his anguish he shall see the light; because of his knowledge he shall be content; My servant, the just one, shall justify the many, their iniquity he shall bear. 12Therefore I will give him his portion among the many, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death, was counted among the transgressors, Bore the sins of many, and interceded for the transgressors.”

To more specifically answer your question, “the many” refers to the righteous remnant among an unfaithful, scattered Israel. You can get really indepth with it on a scholarly level and find treasures of information, or you can simply appreciate the language change as a more literal rendering of Jesus’ own words in the Gospels without getting into all the nuances. Either way, I really appreciate the “new” rendering. Hope this helps a bit.
 
“The Many” is actually very theologically rich.
It may be but it’s not “THE many” but “many,” an important distinction in the English. Latin (and some other languages as well) don’t have a direct counterpart to the English articles (“a,” “an,” “the”), although there are ways to convey the meaning. The English words to be used are “for you and for many,” although I’m sure this will be discussed in future discussions of the precision of the translation.
 
In my translation of the Bible (St. Joseph edition of the New American Bible), Jesus Himself uses the word “many”.

Matthew 26:28:
“…for this is the blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of MANY for the forgiveness of sins”

The original Latin of the Mass translation reflects this.
 
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