What exactly does it mean to be a "non-practicing observer" at a non-Catholic service of worship?

[Brendan_64]

but they read the verses through the spectacles of their own theology.

As we do.

 

[Petergee]

Yeah, make sure you don’t put anything in the collection or sing any hymns… but don’t worry about giving your money to big business or buying pop music…

Neither all big businesses nor all pop music is inherently wrong. However all non-Catholic religions are inherently wrong, to a greater or lesser extent.

 

[Petergee]

OK then, show me some official, post Vatican II, instruction that forbids attendance at non-Catholic Christian services.

See e.g. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=92880

While it is not a sin for a Catholic to occasionally attend another Christian church ]for just cause (e.g., as a guest, for an ecumenical service), so long as the Catholic meets the Mass obligation at a Catholic church and does not receive Protestant communion, what your friend is doing is another matter entirely. Basically, she’s church-shopping. She may intend to remain Catholic but her **inordinate curiosity **and desire for personal comfort place her at risk for losing her Catholic faith.

There seems nothing in Church teaching which permits Catholics to attend (normal non-ecumenical) non-Catholic services for trivial reaons such as “to see what it’s like” or because a friend or relative attends them. Like many things it may not be absolutely and explicitly forbidden but it is certainly discouraged as a possible occasion of sin and even leading to possible loss of the true Divine faith.

 

[Brendan_64]

See e.g. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=92880
There seems nothing in Church teaching which permits Catholics to attend (normal non-ecumenical) non-Catholic services for trivial reaons such as “to see what it’s like” or because a friend or relative attends them. Like many things it may not be absolutely and explicitly forbidden but it is certainly discouraged as a possible occasion of sin and even leading to possible loss of the true Divine faith.

And I suppose, counts in your book as official Vatican instruction? The personal opinion of someone from CAF. I asked you to show me some post Vatican II official instruction from Rome on this matter.

Despite what some individual members of our Church might think, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever in the teachings of the Catholic Church that forbids (either explicitly or implicitly) Catholics from attending the services of other Christian denominations. The fact that certain individual Catholics don’t approve of it is completely irrelevant. There is nothing, absoloutely nothing, in the teachings of our Church that tells us we ought not to do this. So long as we don’t take Communion there, and that we don not neglect our own Sunday Mass obligation as a result, the Catholic Church permits us to attend, and join our brothers and sisters in Christ in their prayer and worship in non-Catholic Christian Churches.

Personally I’ll accept the authority of Rome on this, rather than that of certain CAF posters.

I’ve been to both a Baptist and a Methodist Church today. Do you reckon I need to go and confess this to my priest? Hardly, since we’ve actually been encouraged to do so as a result of our ecumenical mission.

 

[Petergee]

And I suppose, counts in your book as official Vatican instruction?

“Official Vatican instruction” are your words, not mine. Don’t try to verbal me with your strawman argument, you are only making yourself appear foolish.

The personal opinion of someone from CAF. I asked you to show me some post Vatican II official instruction from Rome on this matter.

Despite what some individual members of our Church might think, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever in the teachings of the Catholic Church that forbids (either explicitly or implicitly) Catholics from attending the services of other Christian denominations. The fact that certain individual Catholics don’t approve of it is completely irrelevant. There is nothing, absoloutely nothing, in the teachings of our Church that tells us we ought not to do this. So long as we don’t take Communion there, and that we don not neglect our own Sunday Mass obligation as a result, the Catholic Church permits us to attend, and join our brothers and sisters in Christ in their prayer and worship in non-Catholic Christian Churches.

Personally I’ll accept the authority of Rome on this, rather than that of certain CAF posters.

Then please show me a statement with the authority of Rome stating that the CAF’s official apologists (not just “certain CAF posters”) are wrong, and that absolutely anything goes as far as Catholics participating in non-Catholic services are concerned so long as we don’t take Communion there, and that we dont neglect our Sunday Mass obligation .

I’ve been to both a Baptist and a Methodist Church today. Do you reckon I need to go and confess this to my priest?

Yes I reckon, if it was for trivial reasons such as I mentioned and not the grave reasons stated in the Vatican document. It would certainly be very rare for there to be a serious need to attend TWO different non-Catholic services in one day.

Hardly, since we’ve actually been encouraged to do so as a result of our ecumenical mission.

Really, where does the Church “encourage” us to do this?

 

[batman1973]

I think the first thing to remember is that you are not allowed to go to any non-Catholic religious ceremony of any kind unless

1. It is a bona fide ecumenical or inter-faith service which Catholic clergy co-sponsor or co-lead and which has been approved in advance by your bishop; or
2. There is another grave reason to justrfy it, e.g. to attend a wedding or funeral of a relative or friend.

I don’t think just the fact that your father is a minister in the church, or that you used to belong to it, is a grave reason enough for you to attend a non-Catholic service even occasionally.

In the case of #1 you shoudl certainly join in enthusiastically in the common hymns and prayers, because their wording will have nbeen approved by your bishop and will (hopefully) be acceptable.

In the case of #2 I would be very cautious about joining the prayers and hymns. Even those which seem familiar and even identical to those we sing/pray as Catholcis may have some subtle changes which make them heretical.

So** in the case of #2**, confine yourself to being polite and respectful, sit and stand when you are told to or when other people do. But don’t audibly sing or pray, and be careful not to bow, kneel or give respect to a false god.

And I would add do not put money into any collection unless you can be absolutekly sure that it will not be used to (even subtly) promote a false religion.

Of course anything like leading a prayer, Bible reading, etc is right out tof the question.

Yeah see it’s a bright shiny attitude like yours that makes Protestants definitely not want to have anything to do with your church. Saying we worship a false god. That’s real nice.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That is something I have not done but would love to do. Should I ask permission or can I just go in and observe?

There is a Jewish temple near my workplace that hosts community events. A group of us who were making an event happen arrived to plan out our time there. When we walked in the door, the Rabbi asked if we were there for Bible study. . It is a beautiful building, and I snuck a peek at the area where they hold their services. I didn’t know if I should or not but was curious. To return for a service would be an experience I would like as well.

 

[Petergee]

Yeah see it’s a bright shiny attitude like yours that makes Protestants definitely not want to have anything to do with your church. Saying we worship a false god. That’s real nice.

Falsely accusing me of saying that Protestants worship a false god. That’s real nice.

I have never said any such thing, neither in the post you quoted nor anywhere else.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that all non-Catholics are Protestants.

 

[mayogirl25]

I keep seeing this phrase when reading through old “Ask an Apologist” Q&As and other threads, but I’m not sure how far it goes. I get that the basic idea is that if a Catholic does attend a Protestant worship service, he should not participate in anything that would make it seem like he is in agreement with what that church teaches, but how far does it have to go? I know receiving communion in a Protestant church is out of the question, but is it okay to participate in the service? Can we sing along with the hymns/praise songs, as long as they don’t say anything heretical? Can we join in recitation of psalms or the creeds that Catholics recognize, like the Nicene Creed? What if there is a unison prayer that was written by a non-Catholic but is not explicitly heretical, can we join in reciting that (e.g., the Presbyterian church I grew up in recited prayers of confession written by various theologians in lieu of the penitential rite)? Can we put a dollar in the collection plate? I haven’t been to a Protestant church in months, but my father is a minister so I might visit occasionally after being received into the Catholic Church.

As a practicing Catholic you can do everything in a Protestant worship service except take communion since as a Catholic you are not in communion with them. Everything else is ok. (Make sure you don’t put too much $$$ in their collection plate tho, ha ha!)

 

[DaveBj]

As a practicing Catholic you can do everything in a Protestant worship service except take communion since as a Catholic you are not in communion with them. Everything else is ok. (Make sure you don’t put too much $$$ in their collection plate tho, ha ha!)

It might also be a good idea not to shout “AMEN” when the pastor says something against Catholic doctrine

 

[Razanir]

In the case of #2 I would be very cautious about joining the prayers and hymns. Even those which seem familiar and even identical to those we sing/pray as Catholcis may have some subtle changes which make them heretical.

So in the case of #2, confine yourself to being polite and respectful, sit and stand when you are told to or when other people do. But don’t audibly sing or pray, and be careful not to bow, kneel or give respect to a false god.

And I would add do not put money into any collection unless you can be absolutekly sure that it will not be used to (even subtly) promote a false religion.

Of course anything like leading a prayer, Bible reading, etc is right out tof the question.

1. At my cousins’ baptism and confirmation (UCC), they actually sang a Catholic hymn. On Eagle’s Wings. With all words I recognized
2. WHOA. Crossing a line there. They most certainly do NOT worship a false god. Protestants, being Christians, worship the same God as us, Jews and Muslims. Also, even if they do not teach the entire Truth, they still get parts right. The only time I personally would ever call a religion false is if the Antichrist started one. Otherwise, while I wouldn’t call a non-Catholic religion TRUE, I most certainly would not pejoratively call them false. Especially not our Christian brethren

 

[KathleenGee]

I have gone to a Bat Mitzvah for one of my clients’ granddaughters.

I observed the women, and decided to have my head covered as they do with same. There was one available for me to wear.

Likewise, I experienced the same presence of God there, prayed with them, and held all in veneration, also when the Torah was passed through the congregation.

I told my client’s son that truly, it felt likewise the same God…but the sense in particular was…the sense of Creator and God of the Chosen People of Israel…a sense of antiquity.

In contrast, in a Catholic Mass…the sense of the sacred is the same, but it is in the present eternal moment incorporating all of man’s time, which God created…and with the Mass the sense of joy.

Ancient sense of peoples over thousands of years by the Heavenly Creator to the Mass focused on the present in context of past and future…the eternal moment…in joy and loving affection.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

I work in a Christian workplace with a smattering of various denominations. We have nondenominational worship services weekly which I attend with my coworkers. There are several of us who are Catholic and just remain seated during weeks where they have communion.

I have also attended Sunday service with several coworkers to learn more about their denomination and beliefs (and then attend Mass Sunday evening). I’ve realized that many of them hold beliefs quite similar to my own, but at the end of the day my heart remains with the Catholic church.

In return, several of them are attending Mass with me in a few weeks to learn more about the Catholic church and experience a much different form of worship than they are used to. I am joyfully anticipating the experience of sharing my faith with them.

 

[batman1973]

Falsely accusing me of saying that Protestants worship a false god. That’s real nice.

I have never said any such thing, neither in the post you quoted nor anywhere else.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that all non-Catholics are Protestants.

So in the case of #2, confine yourself to being polite and respectful, sit and stand when you are told to or when other people do. But don’t audibly sing or pray, and be careful not to bow, kneel or give respect to a false god.

 

[Razanir]

So in the case of #2, confine yourself to being polite and respectful, sit and stand when you are told to or when other people do. But don’t audibly sing or pray, and be careful not to bow, kneel or give respect to a false god.

Again, it’s not a false god! Protestants worship the same God as us, Judaism and Islam, albeit imperfectly like with Judaism and Islam

 

[Petergee]

1. At my cousins’ baptism and confirmation (UCC), they actually sang a Catholic hymn. On Eagle’s Wings. With all words I recognized

It was written by a Catholic, but it certainly not an exclusively Catholic hymn. There is nothing in it that could not be sincerely sung by anyone who at least believes in God. (Actually it’s a bit of an exaggerration to say that he “wrote” it. as it’s taken virtually verbatim from Scripture, to be more accurate he set it to music (as it has been many times before).)

,
2) WHOA. Crossing a line there. They most certainly do NOT worship a false god. Protestants, being Christians, worship the same God as us, Jews and Muslims.

WHOA. Crossing a line there! As I already pointed out to another who half-read my post and then fired off this hasty false accusation, I have** never** said that protestants worship a false god!!! :banghead:

Also, even if they do not teach the entire Truth, they still get parts right. The only time I personally would ever call a religion false is if the Antichrist started one. Otherwise, while I wouldn’t call a non-Catholic religion TRUE, I most certainly would not pejoratively call them false. Especially not our Christian brethren

I did not call any religion false pejoratively. BY defininition every non-Catholic religion has different and contradictory beliefs to those of the true Catholic religion, so they are all therefore false. There cannot possibly be more than one true religion, that is totally illogical.
Many religions worship gods other than the one true God who, as I have so often said here, is worshipped by Jews, Christians and Moslems. Obviously all of these other gods are false gods. That fact has nothing to do with protestantism. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

 

[Razanir]

WHOA. Crossing a line there! As I already pointed out to another who half-read my post and then fired off this hasty false accusation, I have** never** said that protestants worship a false god!!! :banghead:

Sorry about that. I just re-read your first post and now realize the context. I apologize for my ad hominem attack.

On a side note, here’s a more verbose explanation of my opinion of the phrase “false religion” from forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10344551&postcount=248

That aside, I’m mostly staying out of this debate. My main issue though is the phrase “false religion” that’s been brought up. To me that’s first off, far too inflammatory of language. Also, “false” contains a certain connotation to me that they get nothing right and exist solely to lead people away from the Truth. If I understand Nostra Aetate correctly, the Church rejects nothing that is actually true in other religions. So if a religion teaches for example “Thou shalt not murder” then we respect them for getting that much correct, even if everything else they believe goes against Church teachings.

I dislike the term even more when people we applying it to Islam and Judaism. “False” also bears a connotation that they worship a false god, which we know is not the case with Judaism and Islam.

It’s not so much that I’m calling them true as it is that I’m calling them not (completely) false. The word “false” has too negative of connotations to me. The only religion I’d ever call false as opposed to not completely true is if the Antichrist appeared and started one

 

[Petergee]

No problem Razanir.

Of course I don’t go around saying to non-Catholics “Your religion is false!” but here we are basically takling as Catholics to each other, and the non-Catholics who join in the forums know this. It’s certainly uncharitable and unhelpful to be rude to people.

 

[pismopal]

As we do.

You are suggesting that our theology is incorrect or as correct as, say Jehova’s Witnesses?
You see some possibility that the Holy Spirit has not guided us into truth?

 

[pismopal]

The Orthodox, Assyrians, PNCC, and a few others do have valid Sacraments, including the Eucharist.

I understand that but I thought we were on the subject of protestants even though the word was not used.I attend a non Catholic denom with my wife on occassion but I do not take their version of communion.