What exactly does it mean to forgive anyway?

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DarkLight

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I’ve struggled with this for a while. I understand that we are called to forgive. I’ve heard all about the benefits of forgiveness. I’ve heard a lot of people talk about “letting go” or “not holding grudges” or “not becoming bitter” or “not letting them control you”…but honestly those don’t make a lot of sense either, they seem to boil down to the same problem. I get a lot of stuff on why we should forgive, but I’ve never really gotten someone talking about what forgiveness is that didn’t seem to be reverting to a large amount of vague terminology.

It’s never seemed to me that how I felt about another person, was something I had a lot of control over, at least not in all cases. If someone’s done something that really hurt me, especially if they knew or should have known better, I’m going to be angry and upset and hurt. Telling myself to not be angry at them just doesn’t work. It’s like when I was a kid and was afraid of something, telling myself to not think about the monsters in the dark didn’t exactly help me sleep. Anger faded when it faded, but nothing I did really seemed to influence that process. And even then I wouldn’t describe it as something that ever goes away always, just that you think about it less over time.

And we clearly can’t just pretend nothing happened, especially if the person is unapologetic. We have to keep enough track to keep ourselves and potentially others from getting hurt. And that requires remembering the hurt enough to not keep giving someone the chance to do it again.

But…that’s pretty much my list of things that I could do to forgive someone, right there. So I’m not sure what it would mean to actually forgive in the first place, at least when someone did a wrong in either a willful or crass manner and is unwilling to apologize.
 
To forgive means to wish the person well in spite of the wrongdoing he inflicted upon you. To desire their utmost good.

It does not mean to forget. Or to be reconciled, or friends with the person.

You can love from afar, and this is the suggestion when dealing with toxic people.
 
“To Forgive” means you don’t wish for revenge, or for “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth”, or that the person be punished for what they did to you. It means you try to understand as much as you can why the person did what they did and see them as one of God’s beloved creatures just like you, and pray that they repent of any evil they did (assuming it was evil and not just carelessness, bad judgment etc ) and make it to Heaven. And you also wish them well on Earth.

Forgiveness does NOT mean you have to continue being friends with the person, having contact with the person, being around the person, or that you do not report the person to the authorities if they have committed a crime. And it’s also okay to hope they get a reasonable sentence if they’re convicted. But if they somehow aren’t convicted, or judge gives them a slap on the wrist, forgiveness calls for us to accept the will of God and not stew about the fact that a wrong seemingly went unpunished.

The Jewish law was (and to some degree is) very focused on retribution, so Jesus’ teaching on forgiveness was unusual in its time. Maybe it still is today.
 
I guess I have trouble seeing the difference sometimes. Especially it seems often - you can pay the consequences of someone else’s wrong for years, even a lifetime. It’s confusing between wanting them to pay and wanting to not pay yourself. Especially as in some of my cases, where I feel someone else did wrong and then I got blamed, putting the focus on them would take it off of me.

And a lot of times, removing yourself from them, that’s something that they’re going to experience as punishment or retribution anyway, if you stop dealing with them.
 
I should add, I’m largely talking about cases where the wrong is either deliberate, or at least crass ignorance. I’m not talking so much about accidents or understandable ignorance.
 
It’s a beautiful topic to meditate on… true forgiveness definitely seems like a sacrfice to me. The very concept of human forgiveness, is forgiveness for some wrongdoing (as opposed to forgiveness as divine quality, state of being) It implies some source of hurt, and desiring justice, equal punishment for that hurt. Demanding “satisfaction”.

I think our goal should be to become okay with every “injustice” that results in others getting to heaven faster than us, without so much struggle as we went through, etc… especiallly those we think deserve punishment, thousands of years of suffering, and other nonsense like that.

We forgive to come closer to God, because God is the source of forgiveness. Every other motivation can be undermined to be honest, and sooner or later more hurt will arise… because our human forgiveness is usually self-centered, and it involves judging other people, it involves blinding ourselves to our feelings, and to our faults too. We who forgive, are the holier ones, mercifully forgiving “from our thrones” those evil ones that hurt us. This kind of forgiveness is not worth it so we need to seek something else. Maybe forgiveness as a state of constant relation to other humans? But how could we achieve that? Especially if we are hurt?

I think forgiveness comes from humility and love of God. We are in no position to judge others as evil, because we love or loved evil ourselves and we have contributed to it’s growth in our world. Once you really understand that, this problem is gone. What remains is only the feelings of hurt. This is a separate problem.

To conclude, how terrible and serious the feeling of being hurt is, should teach us that we should be really careful to never hurt anyone anymore ever again, even slightly, even by a mean look or word.
 
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tom1 said:
To conclude, how terrible and serious the feeling of being hurt is, should teach us that we should be really careful to never hurt anyone anymore ever again, even slightly, even by a mean look or word.
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I think this is something I struggle with too. I’m either going to have to allow myself to be hurt, again and again and again, or do something that I completely know will hurt someone else. To protect myself, that means to do something I know will hurt someone else.
 
I meant that as a way of being, not one-time thing. If you are in an abusive relationship, the only thing you should do is inform the person that the relationship is harmful, and that it brings hurt and misery, and then distance yourself. Maintaining such a relationship seems like a sin to me, because you are allowing evil to happen (my strongest temptation for revenge was always to encourage those that hurt me that their behavior is okay, to advocate doing even more evil to them). You are degrading the other person by knowing that such deeds are evil, and not communicating that clearly. It’s one of my deepest regrets actually, that I didn’t inform some people I don’t have contact with now, that certain things we did or they’ve done were evil. I’m talking about friends. I can only pray for them now, because I don’t have courage to contact them out of the blue and start giving a lecture and humiliate myself, probably not even being able to get a point across.
 
DarkLight said:
And a lot of times, removing yourself from them, that’s something that they’re going to experience as punishment or retribution anyway, if you stop dealing with them.
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You’re not removing yourself to punish the person, regardless if that’s how they see it in their twisted mind. You’re removing yourself for self-protection because the situation is not healthy for you to be in. You are not responsible for the way someone with disordered thinking will perceive your leaving.
 
tom1 said:
Maintaining such a relationship seems like a sin to me, because you are allowing evil to happen
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People in abusive relationships don’t go into them intentionally saying “I’m going to have an abusive relationship now.” Some are born into them and some think they are entering healthy relationships that later go bad. By the time bad stuff starts to happen, it may not be that easy to just walk out for all kinds of reasons including economics and fear as well as emotional attachment.

People in abusive relationships have enough problems without having a judgment shoved on them that they’re sinning if they don’t or can’t extricate themselves. The ability of outsiders to be judgmental, including on a Catholic forum that’s supposed to be loving, never ceases to amaze me.
 
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I don’t think you understood the OP, he said that he doesn’t want to distance himself because he will be hurting the other person. My reply meant that he will actually benefit the other person by distancing himself.
 
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I understand you meant well, but putting the sin word on it introduces an unhelpful aspect in my mind.
It’s pretty obvious from the OP’s other posts who this person is and that it will be difficult to have zero relationship at all. I would not want them to be thinking it’s a sin to have any contact.
 
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I think it means not holding it against someone for ever, not witholding your love and charity. It doesn’t mean you have to waive all reparation.

From the papal encyclical on mercy, Dives in Misericordia:

“In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness.”
 
It took me years to understand that forgivness is not a hard decision, or (for me) a sacrifice, it´s rehabilitation, it´s grace.
It´s called “granting forgiveness” and there is a truth within. The one who forgives is not a victim, but in a state of victory, this is a blessing from god.
I survived some huge things in the past (domestic violence, rape) and I have forgiven. It came with healing, going hand in hand. Forgiving gave me the chance to leave behind the victim state.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I understand you meant well, but putting the sin word on it introduces an unhelpful aspect in my mind.

It’s pretty obvious from the OP’s other posts who this person is and that it will be difficult to have zero relationship at all. I would not want them to be thinking it’s a sin to have any contact.
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From my personal experience, telling a person that was abusive towards me a thousand times in many different forms that it’s evil and i suffer, and we both become worse people did nothing. I had to distance myself for a long time, and only then the person realized what I was trying to convey. Partially, but I was very happy to see that the person understood most of what I said before. The thing that spoke was the silence, not the words.

I made a mistake of attributing the maintaining part as a sin, sorry to get you upset. I should have said that maintaining a relationship, while not saying that it’s harmful, is a sin. After the other party has been informed that it’s harmful, maintaining it on the same terms is no longer sinful, but it sounds pretty miserable. Still, the best thing is to distance oneself, whether for love for oneself, or love for the other person.
 
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Tis_Bearself has somewhat the right of it here - I’m dealing with a parent who is behaving in very hurtful ways. I’m moving out and it’s becoming very clear that I’m going to have to say some harsh words in the future. Not for the purpose of hurting her, but for the purpose of making clear that certain behavior is Not Ok, and persistence in said behavior will lead to to limiting contact. Unfortunately, I have a pretty strong idea that saying that is just going to result in “you ungrateful brat, can’t you see how hard my life is and how much you’re hurting me?”
 
DarkLight, you are not responsible for how she reacts. She behaves badly, then when you need to get away, she blames you for hurting her? That is simply more of her being mean and manipulating you so she can avoid the consequences of her actions.

And you only have to explain once, and answer any real questions (which she is unlikely to ask). If she responds abusively (including manipulatively), you can just stop talking and leave or hang up.

Yes, she will do everything she can to hurt you, and you will totally feel awful, because she is your mother, and there will be a process of healing for you to go through, and that will be painfilled.
 
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Oh, I’m sorry to call you “he”, didn’t read your other posts then. I read some of them now. 😅 It’s good that you are moving out. Why do you have to maintain the relationship for now if I may ask? Would your mom actually throw you out of the house if you upset her?

The thing about relationships is that it’s often like a hidden contract, if the relationship is not healthy. By distancing yourself, changing something, confronting the other person, sometimes doing something that is out of the book, asking certain questions, and many more, you get a chance to re-write those unwritten rules in the contract. It may be hurtful if the other person understands what you are saying and admits that she or he doesn’t respect you. It happens, but at least they can’t pretend any longer and you heal faster. Most often though the relationship changes a lot after a confrontation, and a lot of pressure is lifted from you, believe me.

So… let’s hope that when your mom sees that you are serious, something will change. Still, if you aren’t completely dependant now, I wouldn’t wait a second to change something in the relationship asap.

Wish you all the best.
 
I see a part of forgiveness as cutting the other person slack the way I do that for myself or a loved one. So parents often excuse their child’s misbehavior by saying they are tired. So if a salesperson is rude to me, I might say, she must be tired or something similar. I acknowledge she behaved badly, but do not attribute Animus.

Even when there is animus, I think, maybe they have been hurt, or something like that.

When I commit a wrong, I usually know that I had been under stress, I have an irrational fear, I was tired, etc. Your mother seems to have mental issues of her own; she really can’t help herself in that case. Or she may have been very hurt in the past. You don’t have to know what it is, just learn not to take it personally, and let go so God can work in her.

So pray for her whenever she upsets you, whenever you feel upset by the past, and also at a regular time say a prayer for her.

Do your best to have an,attitude like this: she is a very wounded person. Try to react to her as you would to a wounded person.

But none of this means you need to keep contact with her. For your own soul’s sake, you may just always need to stay away.
 
But then if you see the other person as wounded you cannot distance yourself from them in order to let go and to heal. Like someone close, a parent. If you realize they are spiritually sick, then isn’t it sin to abandon them even temporarily? Can just praying for them be considered you checking up on the sick as Jesus asked? How can one find a way out of the cycling guilt?
Someone told me that feeling too guilty is a sign of pride. Because I put my own thoughts before God’s words. This really disturbed, Then I fear I will never be a good person. Even when I feel guilty I sin? Why?
 
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