What exactly does ProLife mean?

[Rence]

Originally Posted by Harrison
What about the prisoners that continue to kill and commit other crimes from/in prison? Is it not a crime to kill prison guards or other prisoners, too? We must protect those human lives as well, not just us on the outside. People seem to think that throwing a murderer in jail for the rest of his life is guaranteed to keep that person from murdering more people. This is simply not so.

I am not sure how they can kill from the prison. I haven’t heard of this. However, if this is a problem, a solution must be found within the system. I have read extensively on wardens commenting on the lack of results of the death penalty as a determent from further violence [from others], and none have mentioned that there is a problem with the maximum security prisoner committing further crimes themselves.

The fact that you are not sure how they can kill from prison, and that you haven’t heard of this, is part of the problem. Maybe if you’d research it, and learn that many criminals (such as mafia leaders, gang leaders, organized crime leaders) are powerful enough in their social circle to continue leading from within prison and are quite active in their leadership role, you’d learn how they can kill from prison. Then you’d understand how capital punishment in this case is truly to protect society.

Originally Posted by JimG
Well, it’s not so much that it is crazy–although it is–but that it’s the law. Once sentence is passed, of however many years, near total control of the convict goes to the Department of Corrections, who apply the law as it relates to parole.

Sometimes, prosecutors don’t seek a life without parole conviction even when it is allowed, because it may be easier to convict on a lesser charge, or to plea bargain to a lesser charge. (And if it wasn’t for plea bargains, the justice system would simply grind to a halt.)

Putting people unnecessarily to death is not the answer, I agree. (And in some cases, a death penalty is actually a sort of double penalty–the person convicted spends ten to twenty years in prison before ever being executed. It’s as though they received a 20 year sentence to be followed by execution.

So I would prefer a life sentence for dangerous criminals, provided that it can be enforced. But at present, such a sentence is actually a rarity.

How come you know so much about this? Are you a lawyer?
This is interesting…

Yeah…this is another example. You need to do a bit more research. People who have commited rapes, murders, batteries, etc. get released ALL THE TIME, and it’s not a secret or little known. Have you any idea how terrified and angry a rape victim feels to know that her convicted rapist has been released and is now too close for comfort? Or someone who has lived with the abuse of another, to find out that their abuser was released from prison and now unchecked, unwatched and unsecured? How safe do you think someone feels to know that the person who molested their child is at large now because they passed their parole hearing and are out on the streets?

Are you aware of how crowded certain prisons and jails are, to the point of releasing prisoners just to make room for others? That would be another good research project for you, seriously

Also, keep in mind that the US of A is not a “Christian” country. It comprises citizens of many faiths.

And from your own reseach that you’ve already done, can you please tell me how much it costs to execute someone on death row versus how much it costs to feed, clothe and support someone who is living in prison until the day he/she dies? If, of course, they don’t get released early…

 

[elts1956]

For the purposes of the Vatican, American Bishops and many very conservative Catholics, being Pro-Life = being anti-aborion, period. Everything else is window dressing. When was the last time you heard a bishop call for witholding communion from a congressman or governor who advocated executing minors?

From my experience those who have the sensitivity to realize there is human life in the womb and advocate for it’s protection also cringe at the thought of minors being executed, the thought of a criminal being executed, the thought of one child going hungry. To make a blanket statement that anyone believing life begins at conception and ends at natural death means one believes only Pro Life = Abortion is unfair.

 

[elts1956]

For the purposes of the Vatican, American Bishops and many very conservative Catholics, being Pro-Life = being anti-aborion, period. Everything else is window dressing. When was the last time you heard a bishop call for witholding communion from a congressman or governor who advocated executing minors?

The fact that you are not sure how they can kill from prison, and that you haven’t heard of this, is part of the problem. Maybe if you’d research it, and learn that many criminals (such as mafia leaders, gang leaders, organized crime leaders) are powerful enough in their social circle to continue leading from within prison and are quite active in their leadership role, you’d learn how they can kill from prison. Then you’d understand how capital punishment in this case is truly to protect society.

Yeah…this is another example. You need to do a bit more research. People who have commited rapes, murders, batteries, etc. get released ALL THE TIME, and it’s not a secret or little known. Have you any idea how terrified and angry a rape victim feels to know that her convicted rapist has been released and is now too close for comfort? Or someone who has lived with the abuse of another, to find out that their abuser was released from prison and now unchecked, unwatched and unsecured? How safe do you think someone feels to know that the person who molested their child is at large now because they passed their parole hearing and are out on the streets?

Are you aware of how crowded certain prisons and jails are, to the point of releasing prisoners just to make room for others? That would be another good research project for you, seriously

Also, keep in mind that the US of A is not a “Christian” country. It comprises citizens of many faiths.

And from your own reseach that you’ve already done, can you please tell me how much it costs to execute someone on death row versus how much it costs to feed, clothe and support someone who is living in prison until the day he/she dies? If, of course, they don’t get released early…

Kinda hits one in the ole pocket/book doesn’t it?

 

[elts1956]

I DO understand your point. I’m just asking:

1. where does that slogan 'from moment of conception to natural death come from? For starters, try Pope John Paul II’s Encyclical Evangelium Vitae.2. does it matter whether someone is innocent or guilty in terms of God’s image & likeness? [which seems to be the ONLY reason why it’s wrong to kill humans, according to the Bible]
2. aren’t we supposed to pray for the conversion of sinners for the glory of God? [the Fatima prayer for example, ‘…Lord, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.’

 

[elts1956]

I DO understand your point. I’m just asking:

1. where does that slogan 'from moment of conception to natural death come from?
2. does it matter whether someone is innocent or guilty in terms of God’s image & likeness? [which seems to be the ONLY reason why it’s wrong to kill humans, according to the Bible]
3. aren’t we supposed to pray for the conversion of sinners for the glory of God? [the Fatima prayer for example, ‘…Lord, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.’

Where do the homosexuals with children fit in? According to you they can’t be pro-life. So they must be pro-choice, right?

The Church has always taught that the first purpose of the human race is to procreate. Homosexuals cannot physically do that. Therefore no physical life., I would suppose one could say homsexuals are “pro choice” in this instance, however that does not mean they are consistently pro choice in all issues.

 

[elts1956]

I sincerely, honestly don’t understand why? Because no Pope nor any of the Magisterium has spoken infallibly against it. As in JUST war which is supported, the punishment of the criminal would depend upon whether it was morally JUST, ie all other avenues of punishment had been explored and abandoned.

Is it not clear that the Catechism [not to mention the last few Popes, the commandments, Jesus entire ministry of forgiveness, statements by the US Bishops, etc] explicitly explains that in most circumstances nowadays [due to the possibility of restraint] there is virtually no need for the death penalty. This is what Pope Paul II said in Evangelium Vitae, but no definite anti capital punishment statement has come from the Vatican, due, I would think to the fact that there might, just might be that one criminal whose crimes are so heinous, s/he deserves death.To quote the Catechism on this part:

2267…’Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender as an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."’

To insist that the Church does not teach against capital punishment [with the exception of absolute necessity to restrain offender, NOT as punishment nor justice, and this as an allowance, not as a mandate] is plain intellectual dishonesty.

Why are YOU against capital punishment then? Is it just personal preference? I’m not sure that I would personally prefer that position if it were not part of the Christian view [as well as the Church’s].

I am against death of any kind. It is a horrendous judgement and punishement from God which He, in His Wisdom, gave to us to keep us on our toes.,

I am particulary against death in old age.That’s because I am 72.

 

[Ender]

No matter how guilty someone seems, they are still made in the image and likeness of God. Their life still has value and dignity.

This is very true. In fact if their life was without dignity then their death would not suffice to expiate their crime.

To think that the death penalty is supported by the teachings of the Church is simply wrong.

This is a common mistake but in fact the Church throughout her entire history has in fact supported the use of capital punishment.

Though exceptions can be made, it is generally unnecessary.

It may well be unnecessary for protection but it is still quite necessary for justice.

Above all, the death penalty robs a man, the greatest of God’s creations, from any chance at repentance and reconciliation with his Creator and Savior.

Not really. The criminal still has years between his conviction and his execution in which to repent and, unlike those who simply live out their years in confinement, those sentenced to death have an immediate incentive to do so.

All life is sacred. All people were made in the image and likeness of God.

It is interesting to see this passage quoted so often. What makes it interesting is that the context in which it appears in Scripture is quite the reverse of how it is commonly used - and of how you used it. It is precisely because man is made in the image of God that the penalty for murder is set at the ultimate price - the life of the killer.

It is not for us to decide that a certain segment of the population (in this case, criminals) are somehow less than human.

First, it is the responsibility of the state to judge and punish criminals, and second, the decision to execute someone is not made because he is less than human but precisely because he is human. That is, he is held accountable for his actions and is made to pay a price commensurate with the damage his actions have caused, and the only thing of commensurate value with the life he has taken is his own life.

Ender