What exactly is a Liturgical Dancer?

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I’ve heard that some churches are using “Liturgical Dancers” and dances right in the middle of Mass! I don’t remember anything about that in the catechism, so I was caught flat-footed in yet another of my interminable theological arguments with Protestants. Has anybody else heard about that? Is it true? And what does the Church say on it?

Thanks in advance.
 
My experience with it is as dance, usually interpretive or ballet, danced to spiritual music. My daughter actually performed some ballet to Ave Maria at a funeral mass, at the request of the family of the deceased.

I assume it can take other forms also, probably some more tasteful than others. It’s another of those things that is loved by some and detested as an abomination by others.

My understanding is that it was banned by the recent Redemptionis Sacramentum, but I may be wrong about that. I enjoyed it personally in the couple instances I saw, but I can see where it could be tasteless and/or distracting.

Peace,
John
 
Re: What exactly is a Liturgical Dancer?

From what I have seen…someone who probably would never make it as a dancer anywhere else.
 
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The_Angelus:
I’ve heard that some churches are using “Liturgical Dancers” and dances right in the middle of Mass! I don’t remember anything about that in the catechism, so I was caught flat-footed in yet another of my interminable theological arguments with Protestants. Has anybody else heard about that? Is it true? And what does the Church say on it?

Thanks in advance.
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Yep, know exactly what you mean , angelus
That is the very reason I no longer proselytize, among my “fundy” relatives and friends.

I usually get “blind sided” by something like this:
arent liturgical dancers pagan?
why do you have Clown Masses?
Your “service”/Mass is so boring!
Why are nuns being ordained as priestesses?
And why do they no longer dress like nuns?
What’s up with this molestation thing?
and on and on and on, ad nauseum
So as A converted “Fundy” I just go to the TLM and thank God for it. And keep my mouth shut in “Mixed” company
 
What exactly is a Liturgical Dancer?

Someone who wants very, very, very, VERY badly to be a dancer, but who has absolutely no talent for it whatsoever, and so that person afflicts his or her ambition on a congregation, who initially thinks it’s not a bad idea, if it’s free, but end up voting to pay the person to NOT do it? I’m just guessing here.
 
Dancing at a funeral mass???
I am sure it did not detract from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the unbloody sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Somehow I don’t recall dancing young girls as part of the Suffering of Jesus. Actually that picture in my mind is obscene.
 
Here’s what His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI thinks of “liturgical dance”:
Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt in certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. For these people, the Crucifixion was only an appearance. . . . Dancing could take the place of the liturgy of the Cross, because, after all, the Cross was only an appearance. The cultic dances of the different religions have different purposes - incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy - none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy as the “reasonable sacrifice”. It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy “attractive” by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause. Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.

This action of God, which takes place through human speech, is the real “action” for which all creation is in expectation. The elements of the earth are transubstantiated, pulled, so to speak, from their creaturely anchorage, grasped at the deepest ground of their being, and changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord. The New Heaven and the New Earth are anticipated. The real “action” in the liturgy in which we are all supposed to participate is the action of God himself. This is what is new and distinctive about the Christian liturgy: God himself acts and does what is essential.
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"Here [the West] dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses: such dancing, in general, is not pure.

"For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever: that would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements; and so it would be equivalent to creating an atmosphere of profaneness which would easily recall to those present and to the participants in the celebration worldly places and situations.

“Neither can acceptance be had of the proposal to introduce into the liturgy the so-called artistic ballet because there would be presentation here also of a spectacle at which one would assist, while in the liturgy one of the norms from which one cannot prescind is that of participation.”

From Notitiae, 1975
Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship

This would appear to prohibit dancing in the Roman Rite in the West. The document also says that “The traditional reserve of the seriousness of religious worship, and of the Latin worship in particular, must never be forgotten.”

Has this prohibition been lifted?

I agree with the previous comments about the ‘talent’ of so-called liturgical dancers. If I want to see dancing, I will pay my money and see some good dancing.

I would note that, as the document above states, the congregation cannot participate in a choreographed dance. Thus the performance would violate the intentions of Vatican II, which calls for participation. The whole business smacks of setting someone apart and on a higher plane from the rest of us mere pew-sitters.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
What exactly is a Liturgical Dancer?

Someone who wants very, very, very, VERY badly to be a dancer, but who has absolutely no talent for it whatsoever, and so that person afflicts his or her ambition on a congregation, who initially thinks it’s not a bad idea, if it’s free, but end up voting to pay the person to NOT do it? I’m just guessing here.
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With all due respect, that was a truly mean-spirited and hateful thing to say. The two people I saw do it were both extremely talented young women, one of whom was a professional dancer. My daughter, while choosing a teaching career, took 14 years of ballet and taught for several years. 😦

If you want to cite some specific cases where you’ve seen untalented dancers, that’s fine, but I really think that generalization was uncalled for and not in much of a Christian spirit. It appears from your “I’m just guessing here” comment though that you don’t have first hand experience, so I do have to wonder what it is you’re basing that opinion on.

Peace,
John
 
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Fast_ed75:
Dancing at a funeral mass???
I am sure it did not detract from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the unbloody sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Somehow I don’t recall dancing young girls as part of the Suffering of Jesus. Actually that picture in my mind is obscene.
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It was done at the offertory time before the presentation of the gifts and was presented as a gift to the family. Their daughter had been a dancer and they specifically requested it. I did not hear a single negative comment, and I did personally talk to most of the people at the funeral since we are a small parish where we all know each other.

Keep in mind also that the Mass is also a banquet, not just a sacrifice.

Peace,
John
 
Having commented more on the attitude of the posts than the actual issue, let me say that I don’t particularly agree with the idea of dance in the liturgy. If I am correct that it has been removed as part of RS, I will not consider it any great loss. While I know that many people express themselves best through music, just as many express themselves best through art, I think the liturgy is rich already in its form and symbolism and that dancing can easily detract from that.

Peace,
John
 
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ncjohn:
With all due respect, that was a truly mean-spirited and hateful thing to say. The two people I saw do it were both extremely talented young women, one of whom was a professional dancer. My daughter, while choosing a teaching career, took 14 years of ballet and taught for several years. 😦

If you want to cite some specific cases where you’ve seen untalented dancers, that’s fine, but I really think that generalization was uncalled for and not in much of a Christian spirit. It appears from your “I’m just guessing here” comment though that you don’t have first hand experience, so I do have to wonder what it is you’re basing that opinion on.

Peace,
John
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Actually, I was making a joke. The truth of the matter is that is woefully inappropriate at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and it should be put down wherever it raises its unfortunate head. The Holy See doesn’t want it and if we cannot bow to obvious good taste, we should at least bend the knee in what is our undoubted duty: obedience. That’s just my opinion. If someone has a talent for dance, they should be a dancer…but not at Mass.
 
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ncjohn:
It was done at the offertory time before the presentation of the gifts and was presented as a gift to the family. Their daughter had been a dancer and they specifically requested it. I did not hear a single negative comment, and I did personally talk to most of the people at the funeral since we are a small parish where we all know each other.

Keep in mind also that the Mass is also a banquet, not just a sacrifice.

Peace,
John
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That’s very sad. The priest, however, should have said no and cited Church directives regarding liturgical dance. If they had requested the scattering of their daughter’s ashes, would he have acquiesed? That, too, is forbidden to Catholics. Catholic brides are not permitted to walk down the aisle with Billy Idol’s “White Wedding.” Would he have given in to that? He could have done it gently, but he should have said no firmly.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
That’s very sad. The priest, however, should have said no and cited Church directives regarding liturgical dance.
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This was in the mid-90’s and to the best of my knowledge there were no church directives. It was allowed in our diocese and the priest was the one who actually brought the request to us from the family. But having expressed my opinion that I don’t think it’s needed or particularly useful, let me throw out a couple quotes from the thread and ask a couple questions:
If someone has a talent for dance, they should be a dancer…but not at Mass.
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Somehow I don’t recall dancing young girls as part of the Suffering of Jesus. Actually that picture in my mind is obscene.
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But it’s not a dinner show.
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How would you differentiate this from the organist? Or the choir? Or the soloist butchering Ave Maria? By your statement, if you have musical talent you should go become a musician, but not inflict it on the faithful in the pews. By and large, I think the answer will be because we’re used to hearing music, however bad it may be, at our masses. I can guarantee you though that a song/hymn you don’t like, or one that is badly executed, is just as distracting as a dancer. These are also all people being set aside to perform “special” functions at the mass, and while some of the songs/hymns are for participation, just as many, especially those during communion, are usually not. Should we just then consider them entertainment? Are they just “dinner theater?” Should we drop them so as not to elevate or “puff up” the individuals involved?

To address the second quote, I don’t recall a choir singing at the crucifixion either. Does that make singing uplifting joyous songs inappropriate at Mass? Should they all be funeral dirges?

I tend to think that if we’re honest with ourselves we’ll find that much of the objection to liturgical dance is just that it’s not as popular an art form, being considered, along with opera, to be kind of “hoity toity” and boring. Additionally, most of us have had little or any exposure to dance and we tend to bias ourselves against change and things we’re not used to. I know I find most types of dance to be boring and a waste of my time. That doesn’t mean however that the person doing the dancing isn’t giving the best of their God-given talents back to God as a gift.

I still don’t think we need it though, although I think we can be a little less judgmental and charitable in how we express that.

Peace,
John 🙂
 
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ncjohn:
I tend to think that if we’re honest with ourselves we’ll find that much of the objection to liturgical dance is just that it’s not as popular an art form, being considered, along with opera, to be kind of “hoity toity” and boring. Additionally, most of us have had little or any exposure to dance and we tend to bias ourselves against change and things we’re not used to. I know I find most types of dance to be boring and a waste of my time. That doesn’t mean however that the person doing the dancing isn’t giving the best of their God-given talents back to God as a gift.

I still don’t think we need it though, although I think we can be a little less judgmental and charitable in how we express that.
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Read the quote I posted by our current pope. (post #8)
 
Every time I have seen them they have looked like the village fool! But thats just me
 
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ncjohn:
My experience with it is as dance, usually interpretive or ballet, danced to spiritual music. My daughter actually performed some ballet to Ave Maria at a funeral mass, at the request of the family of the deceased.

I assume it can take other forms also, probably some more tasteful than others. It’s another of those things that is loved by some and detested as an abomination by others.

My understanding is that it was banned by the recent Redemptionis Sacramentum, but I may be wrong about that. I enjoyed it personally in the couple instances I saw, but I can see where it could be tasteless and/or distracting.

Peace,
John
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I don’t find dancing in mass appealing:http://www.csasisters.org/site_uploads/gallery/photo693_1.jpg
 
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