What exactly is a Liturgical Dancer?

[ncjohn]

Genesis315:

Read the quote I posted by our current pope. (post #8)

I read it and it’s an interesting opinion, much of which I share. It’s really irrelevant though to the point I’ve been trying to make.

The difficulty I have, as in many other threads here, is the sadness I feel in watching brothers and sisters in Christ tear each other apart over personal preferences, and the vehemence of the invective at times. It’s a fact of life that people are made differently, with different tastes and preferences. We have those who love the latin mass and those who hate it and feel totally left out in one. We have people who feel bonded to the body of Christ in holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer, and those who just want no part of it for a variety of reasons. We have those who would like the silence for private devotion so present before V2, and Charismatics who must express their joy. The list of differences is endless.

Why do we feel the need to get so “superior” in thinking our preference is the best or only way to worship God? We are all meant to give glory to God in every gift we are given and every action we take. If I paint, I give glory to God in giving back this gift to him through my paintings. It is the same in music, or a gift for teaching, or even dance. Much of the ballet my daughter did through the years was to Christian music that she choreographed to praise God. Quite frankly I’ll put her faith and devotion up against anybody’s in these forums, including my own.

I agree that Mass is still not the proper venue in most cases for this expression, but I see it that way, not because I see anything wrong with dance at Mass per se, but because of the problem of control and taste. In music we have some control because it is on paper and can be approved for content and style in advance. In paintings we have a canvas to look at and approve in advance. Dance is much more subjective and much more appreciated or not appreciated based on personal taste. Any art form is difficult to employ in a liturgical setting as we can see by the simple disagreement between people over the paintings and statues in the church or the music used in the liturgy. Dance is even more subjective, and since it is subject to change “on the fly” control of it is difficult. Since most of us don’t have a great exposure to or understanding of dance anyway, there is also a built-in bias against it going in. For those and other reasons, I agree that it is usually counter-productive.

That being said, my most important point is still that we have to learn to accept other’s preferences and get over our superiority complexes. The Catholic Church has always proclaimed itself to be the universal church where people of all types of backgrounds can come together to worship God. I am not saying at all that we should just open our liturgies to “anything goes” expressions, but I will say that there are different ways of expressing the same thing within the accepted context and form of the Mass. I see way too many of us standing though like the Pharisee in the temple saying “thank you Lord for not making me like those other sinners” because others express their praise for God differently than us. We have to stop imputing evil motives and lack of piety or devotion to people over the way they choose to talk and listen to God. We are ALL the Body of Christ.

Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me!
John

“Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

ncjohn:

How would you differentiate this from the organist? Or the choir? Or the soloist butchering Ave Maria? By your statement, if you have musical talent you should go become a musician, but not inflict it on the faithful in the pews. By and large, I think the answer will be because we’re used to hearing music, however bad it may be, at our masses. I can guarantee you though that a song/hymn you don’t like, or one that is badly executed, is just as distracting as a dancer. These are also all people being set aside to perform “special” functions at the mass, and while some of the songs/hymns are for participation, just as many, especially those during communion, are usually not. Should we just then consider them entertainment? Are they just “dinner theater?” Should we drop them so as not to elevate or “puff up” the individuals involved?

I would differentiate it by saying that no, the things you cite are not nearly as distracting. By and large, they can be consigned to the background while one prays or meditates. A liturgical dancer, on the other hand, is a vast train wreck in the middle of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for whom most of us feel the most accute sense of embarassment, but who we, being human, feel compelled to watch. Misericordie has posted that picture of the nun several times, for what motive I cannot imagine, but in this instance, it is apropos: is anyone, ANYONE, able to look at this without that squirming sensation we get when someone is making a complete fool of themselves? Be honest, now! Liturgical dance is an innovation. Not all innovations are bad, but this one is. That’s a subjective opinion, but I daresay it’s the sesum fidei, at least outside the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

 

[Brendan]

pharisaios2.scriptmania.com/Hymn/HM&A142.htm

 

[Fidei_Defensor]

pharisaios2.scriptmania.com/Hymn/HM&A142.htm

Bwahaha!

 

[ncjohn]

JKirkLVNV:

I would differentiate it by saying that no, the things you cite are not nearly as distracting. By and large, they can be consigned to the background while one prays or meditates. A liturgical dancer, on the other hand, is a vast train wreck in the middle of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for whom most of us feel the most accute sense of embarassment, but who we, being human, feel compelled to watch. Misericordie has posted that picture of the nun several times, for what motive I cannot imagine, but in this instance, it is apropos: is anyone, ANYONE, able to look at this without that squirming sensation we get when someone is making a complete fool of themselves? Be honest, now! Liturgical dance is an innovation. Not all innovations are bad, but this one is. That’s a subjective opinion, but I daresay it’s the sesum fidei, at least outside the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

I would disagree totally about being able to consign the music within the liturgy to the “background” (especially if it’s BAD) nor are we supposed to as it is considered (for better or worse) part of the liturgy. I constantly cringed however when bringing visitors to our previous parish for mass because the choir was an absolute embarassment and very distracting.

As to it not being as bad as a dancer, that unquestionably depends on the dancer. Since you have stated that you’ve never personally observed this, making such a generalization (“train wreck”) again is unfair. The ones I saw were tasteful and quite professionally done with great reverence. I totally agree that it could be very bad and excruciatingly embarassing however, which is why I have clearly agreed with you that I don’t think it’s a good idea. It is this potential, not that it is inherently different from any other music in the liturgy, that makes it questionable and probably counter-productive.

In the end however, I think I’m making the same point you were making in the thread on the TLM Mass. We need to be careful about making judgments based on personal preferences. Those types of things are both easily open to abuse and inherently subjective, just as all things that have to do with art and creative expression are. I don’t think we’re really far off in our desires and beliefs although we might express them somewhat differently and may have different preferences in the details.

Peace,
John

 

[JKirkLVNV]

ncjohn:

I would disagree totally about being able to consign the music within the liturgy to the “background” (especially if it’s BAD) nor are we supposed to as it is considered (for better or worse) part of the liturgy. I constantly cringed however when bringing visitors to our previous parish for mass because the choir was an absolute embarassment and very distracting.

As to it not being as bad as a dancer, that unquestionably depends on the dancer. Since you have stated that you’ve never personally observed this, making such a generalization (“train wreck”) again is unfair. The ones I saw were tasteful and quite professionally done with great reverence. I totally agree that it could be very bad and excruciatingly embarassing however, which is why I have clearly agreed with you that I don’t think it’s a good idea. It is this potential, not that it is inherently different from any other music in the liturgy, that makes it questionable and probably counter-productive.

In the end however, I think I’m making the same point you were making in the thread on the TLM Mass. We need to be careful about making judgments based on personal preferences. Those types of things are both easily open to abuse and inherently subjective, just as all things that have to do with art and creative expression are. I don’t think we’re really far off in our desires and beliefs although we might express them somewhat differently and may have different preferences in the details.

Peace,
John

Sorry. Let me be clear regarding Liturgical dance. In my opinion, it’s a ghastly idea. In point of fact, it’s forbidden. We have traditionally had music, choirs, organs (in fact, the pipe organ, in Church documents, is supposed to have pride of place), etc., badly used or to the good. Dance has NEVER been a part of the liturgical practice of the Roman Catholic Church. The only time it has cropped up has been in the gnostic sects cited by another poster above. I’ve never heard any Catholic, except for you, say they enjoy it. I’m sorry if you feel I’m being strident, but I think that part of the reason we are in some of the liturgical mess we are in is because people sit in the pews and don’t say anything when igregious things happen in the celebration of the Mass. I’m not talking about subjective taste, which I readily admit is subjective. I’m talking about disobedience. If liturgical dance is happening, it’s an act of disobdience, and at that point, it hardly matters how tastefully or beautifully done it is. That’s beside the point. It’s forbidden.

 

[ncjohn]

JKirkLVNV:

Sorry. Let me be clear regarding Liturgical dance. In my opinion, it’s a ghastly idea. In point of fact, it’s forbidden. We have traditionally had music, choirs, organs (in fact, the pipe organ, in Church documents, is supposed to have pride of place), etc., badly used or to the good. Dance has NEVER been a part of the liturgical practice of the Roman Catholic Church. The only time it has cropped up has been in the gnostic sects cited by another poster above. I’ve never heard any Catholic, except for you, say they enjoy it. I’m sorry if you feel I’m being strident, but I think that part of the reason we are in some of the liturgical mess we are in is because people sit in the pews and don’t say anything when igregious things happen in the celebration of the Mass. I’m not talking about subjective taste, which I readily admit is subjective. I’m talking about disobedience. If liturgical dance is happening, it’s an act of disobdience, and at that point, it hardly matters how tastefully or beautifully done it is. That’s beside the point. It’s forbidden.

It’s forbidden now thanks to RS; it was not when I observed it, so it was strictly a subjective opinion. As I have said, I don’t regret seeing it go because it has great potential to be done badly and thus be distracting.

I have no problem with you thinking it’s a ghastly idea. There are many art forms I consider ghastly which many others find to be the height of art (opera for example), and many ghastly applications of art forms I do enjoy, including liturgical music. I just don’t want to start classifying people based on whether they agree with my idea of ghastly. They’re entitled to their wrong opinions!

Peace,
John

 

[JKirkLVNV]

ncjohn:

It’s forbidden now thanks to RS; it was not when I observed it, so it was strictly a subjective opinion. As I have said, I don’t regret seeing it go because it has great potential to be done badly and thus be distracting.

No, sorry, it was forbidden in the American Church by our bishops as early as 1982 (see link below). It is permitted only in locales where it is a natural and historic part of that culture (for example, in Africa).

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1400

 

[ncjohn]

JKirkLVNV:

No, sorry, it was forbidden in the American Church by our bishops as early as 1982 (see link below). It is permitted only in locales where it is a natural and historic part of that culture (for example, in Africa).

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1400

If that’s true than I have been misinformed for years and I thank you for enlightening me.

It’s really still irrelevant though to the only point I’ve really tried to make–that we need to dividing and setting ourselves up as superior based on preferences. In a world that desperately needs us to lead them out of the mire, Satan likes nothing better than to have us sniping at each other instead.

Peace,
John

 

[Ignatius]

What exactly is a Liturgical Dancer?

A sacrilege.

 

[Ignatius]

Genesis315:

Here’s what His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI thinks of “liturgical dance”:

Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt in certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. For these people, the Crucifixion was only an appearance. . . . Dancing could take the place of the liturgy of the Cross, because, after all, the Cross was only an appearance. The cultic dances of the different religions have different purposes - incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy - none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy as the “reasonable sacrifice”. It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy “attractive” by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause. Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.

This action of God, which takes place through human speech, is the real “action” for which all creation is in expectation. The elements of the earth are transubstantiated, pulled, so to speak, from their creaturely anchorage, grasped at the deepest ground of their being, and changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord. The New Heaven and the New Earth are anticipated. The real “action” in the liturgy in which we are all supposed to participate is the action of God himself. This is what is new and distinctive about the Christian liturgy: God himself acts and does what is essential.

Amen.

 

[ForeverAdam]

ncjohn:

Keep in mind also that the Mass is also a banquet, not just a sacrifice.

The Holy Mass is two things. It is a Sacrifice and a Meal. However, the “Meal” aspect only occurs at the Communion time. Why is this? This is so because the “Meal” we are receiving is a “sacrificial meal” (viz. that of the Divine Victim, Jesus). And if we are receiving a “sacrificial meal” then it is logical that a Sacrifice proceed it. Ergo, the entire Mass should be filled with sacrificial themes, firstly in the form of offering the Divine Victim to the Father (offertory), then in immolating Him (the consecration), presenting the Sacrificed Victim to God (conclusion of Canon), Priest’s Communion, and our Communion.

In no way do we have a mere “meal” in the Mass. In the Mass we have a *Sacrifice * and then the reception of the Sacrifice, which is the Sacrificial Banquet.

In Christ,

Adam

 

[ForeverAdam]

As for “liturgical dancers” such a thing is incompatible to the nature of the Holy Sacrifice.

If we truly participate in a heavenly liturgy in the Mass then all that the Mass contains ought to raise the heart and mind to God and to the sacrificial realities occurring in our midst. Or at the very least shouldn’t present an opposite of this reality. Does heaven contain people dancing around the altar of God? Did the ancient Holy of Holies contain liturgical dancers? Do liturgical dancers bring to our mind the Sacrifice of Calvary and dedication to God or pagan vestal virgins engaging in false worship? I think we know the answer to that.

In Christ,

Adam

 

[ncjohn]

ForeverAdam:

As for “liturgical dancers” such a thing is incompatible to the nature of the Holy Sacrifice.

If we truly participate in a heavenly liturgy in the Mass then all that the Mass contains ought to raise the heart and mind to God and to the sacrificial realities occurring in our midst. Or at the very least shouldn’t present an opposite of this reality. Does heaven contain people dancing around the altar of God? Did the ancient Holy of Holies contain liturgical dancers? Do liturgical dancers bring to our mind the Sacrifice of Calvary and dedication to God or pagan vestal virgins engaging in false worship? I think we know the answer to that.

In Christ,

Adam

I really don’t want to argue this any further, since I specifically have NOT been arguing for liturgical dance. My only comments were based on two factors: one had to do with my personal opinion that the two occasions I saw were very tasteful and reverently presented as gifts to God; the other is that people need to remember that people return their gifts to God in all kinds of different ways and that we shouldn’t be judging people’s ways and preferences for doing that.

That being said, I do have to disagree with the premise that all of the mass is sacrificial and that there is nothing in it that is not. Much of the prayer in the liturgy is prayer of joy and praise and thanksgiving; many of the readings for any given liturgy are words of joy and praise; much of the music present in most any liturgy are songs of joy and praise. Are these expressions of joy and praise and thanksgiving incompatible with the Mass? Of course not. Neither are expressions of joy and praise present in reverently presented liturgical dance. King David himself could not restrain himself from dancing with joy before the Lord, to the amazement of his people.

I have fully agreed that ours is not a culture however in which dance is a dominant means of expression–unlike some other cultures in the world where it is part of daily life and where liturgical dance is still acceptably practiced–and as such is not appropriate in most cases. That is not because there is anything inherently wrong with it; it is because it is not normal to our culture and would therefore be artificial or “forced” in most circumstances, with the results being distracting and couter-productive to many.

Coming to the conclusion that dance can’t be a form of praise and worship though is dangerously judgmental. My daughter spent a good part of her teenage years praising God through dance, spending time in ballet camp with Ballet Magnificat, which is a touring group that does nothing but give praise to God through Christian ballet. Until she decided to pursue education as a career, joining that company was a long time dream of hers.

By the way, I woulnd’t be too quick to assume that there aren’t angels and saints dancing around the altar of God in heaven. I would be quite frankly surprised if I find that there aren’t and if my daughter doesn’t end up being one of them when her time comes.

Peace,
John

 

[ForeverAdam]

ncjohn:

That being said, I do have to disagree with the premise that all of the mass is sacrificial and that there is nothing in it that is not.

When I said that all things in the “Mass” should relate to sacrifice, I was speaking of the Mass, proper, or what we usually term, “The Liturgy of the Eucharist.” The “Liturgy of the Word” is part of the “Fore-Mass” but the sacrificial aspect of the Mass, begins at the Offertory. In any case, even the first part of the Mass is not to be severed from the Sacrifice. The Mass from beginning to end ought to either prepare us in reverence for the renewal of Calvary, via prayer and instruction. Therefore, the same reverence that shines in the latter, should be present in the former.

ncjohn:

Are these expressions of joy and praise and thanksgiving incompatible with the Mass? Of course not. Neither are expressions of joy and praise present in reverently presented liturgical dance. King David himself could not restrain himself from dancing with joy before the Lord, to the amazement of his people.

Personally, I have nothing against praising God via dance and other means (so long as its within the bounds of Christian modesty, of course). St. Theresa of Avila often “danced before the Lord” in jubilation, like King David. However, we find no precedent of such actions occurring during the Mass (speaking of the sacrificial part of Mass here, or “Mass, proper”), and well, during the Fore-Mass either.

In Christ,

Adam

 

[Bulldog]

ForeverAdam:

…
Personally, I have nothing against praising God via dance and other means (so long as its within the bounds of Christian modesty, of course).** St. Theresa of Avila often “danced before the Lord” in jubilation**, like King David. However, we find no precedent of such actions occurring during the Mass (speaking of the sacrificial part of Mass here, or “Mass, proper”), and well, during the Fore-Mass either.

In Christ,

Adam

People could open their hearts in which then they could be dancing (racing of the heart).
Also I would love it instead of a lit. dance (which is no-no, and I’ve seen them) that during consecration (elevation) that people thanks, praise and ask for help to God during that precious moment, if only people knew… they just need to be reminded what the Holy Mass is.

 

[ncjohn]

ForeverAdam:

However, we find no precedent of such actions occurring during the Mass (speaking of the sacrificial part of Mass here, or “Mass, proper”), and well, during the Fore-Mass either.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments Adam. Even the couple I saw done were, as I noted, prior to the Liturgy of the Eucharist. I agree fully that it would not be at all appropriate beyond that time even if it were licit in our Church.

As to there being no precedent, that is really not true. Within some African, and I believe some Asian cultures, I am pretty sure (99%) that liturgical dance is still licit as it is a natural and daily part of the way they express themselves in their culture. I’m not sure if churches within our Native American poplulations are allowed to have it or not, but that is certainly another culture in which dance is a normal and natural means of expression and where it would be entirely appropriate as long as it wasn’t an expression of some superstition or some non-Catholic idea.

Peace,
John

 

[Wolseley]

Everything connected with the liturgy must be there to produce reverence, IMHO.

Liturgical dancers do not produce reverence. At least not in most young men and teenage boys.

I was a teenage boy myself once several thousand years ago, and I know fully well the effect that is produced by a liturgical dancer.

Having a sixteen-to-twenty-year old pixie prance by at the range of two feet in a tight-fitting leotard that is low-cut in front and high-cut in the hips, allowing you to examine in minute detail every jiggle in front and muscle flex from behind as she gyrates and hops down the aisle, will not produce reverence.

It’ll produce a lot of other things, but reverence will not be among them.

Trust me on this. Been there.

 

[ncjohn]

Wolseley:

Having a sixteen-to-twenty-year old pixie prance by at the range of two feet in a tight-fitting leotard that is low-cut in front and high-cut in the hips, allowing you to examine in minute detail every jiggle in front and muscle flex from behind as she gyrates and hops down the aisle, will not produce reverence.

Yikes, that’s a scary thought. The ones I saw were not like that, nor would I have allowed my daughter to participate in any such thing. Along with the presentations being reverent, they were also modest. Of course it’s irrelevant now since it’s banned anyway.

Of course that won’t help you with the girl who sits in front of you in the short skirt and crop top, but I guess that’s another issue!

 

[donosti]

I never heard before about them.