What exactly is a venial sin?

[steve_b]

I think we pretty much all agree that only God can decide the seriousness of a sin. Since Jesus said that lust = adultery and anger = murder, I’m thinking that in God’s eyes, all sin is the same despite the fact that they may have different consequences in this life, but this is probably just my opinion.

we can’t forget degree.

For example you bring up Mt 5:28 Lust = adultery

Mt 5:28
Lust after ἐπιθυμέω epithymeō]
definition:
1) to turn upon a thing
2) to have a desire for, long for, to desire
3) to lust after, covet
a) of those who seek things forbidden
Dictionary discription is
1.intense sexual desire or appetite.
2.uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite; lecherousness.

&

commits adultery μοιχεύω moicheuō]
definition:
1) to commit adultery
a) to be an adulterer
b) to commit adultery with, have unlawful intercourse with another’s wife
c) of the wife: to suffer adultery, be debauched
Just a few thoughts on degree

To be guilty of lust = adultery,

• it’s not a simple temptation that one does not entertain, and puts it out of their mind as soon as it happens.
• It’s a temptation that one enjoys, and pursues and desires the thoughts, and covets the feelings and emotions they produce for the object of one’s lust… One doesn’t put any breaks on, to stop the thoughts. That’s lust = adultery. needless to say, Re: adultery, one or both of the persons of this example, is married.

So that this isn’t misunderstood, If one puts the temptation out of their mind each time it happens, it’s just a temptation, Not a sin

As to your 2nd example you bring up, anger obviously has degrees also. All anger is ≠ to murder. However, If you’re so angry with someone you wished you could kill them, then that is a grave sin.
t:

I guess I’m still having trouble with some of the criteria for a mortal sin.* If only God truly knows the gravity of a sin,* can anyone be said to have FULL understanding of the gravity of the sin?

God is NOT the only one who knows the gravity of sin. Scripture provides lists of grave sins. Once you know that, and see those lists, then YOU know also that those sins are grave. You can tell the gravity of the sin when the consequence described after the sin says something like " you will not inherit the kingdom of God" or “the rath of God is coming” etc etc
t:

Wouldn’t this make all sins venial? I suppose one can say that your conscience tells you, but we all know that we all play mind games and justify the sins that are hardest to get rid of.

Regardless, if there is a true distinction between sins, how are we to use this knowledge to grow as a Christian considering that we can’t be certain which of our sins are mortal and which are venial?

Left to our own wits without a properly formed conscience, we’ll reduce all wrongdoing to a misdemeanor. It’s like what Paul said

Rom 7:7
I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

The other day I was at a hardware store. I had a bunch of stuff I had to buy. I thought I put everything up on the counter to scan for payment. I paid the bill. When I got to the car I found 1 item in the basket that I didn’t see back in the store. It didn’t get scanned. It was a $3.00 item. I’m thinking at that moment I have every intention of paying for the item. So I went back into the store, to the same checker, and paid for the item telling her what happened. She thanked me for my honesty. 2 things as I see it, happened there.

• The sin would have been a small sin if I decided not to pay for the item. But it would have bothered me just the same because I knew it would be wrong not to pay for the item. Small sins are venial in nature but they wound the soul just the same
• my action ended up being a witness to the checker. How many times has that happened to her in all the customers she sees over the course of maybe years? Maybe I’m the first to do that for such a small item… I have never seen this checker before and I probably won’t see her again…it’s a big hardware store, and lots of employees. I don’t even remember what she looked like. But maybe this act helps her in her faith. Or maybe she sees me again in the store and will remember the incident and how a small item can make a big impact. Maybe she tells the story at the next employee meeting, and it makes an impact on somebody. All over a small $3.00 item and doing what’s right.

The CCC has multiple entries on Venial sin ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=venial+&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Me and my wife.
My wife checks regularly for the change and items she bought. She knows all themistakes.
Me. I am too much absent minded. Sometimes, I just show the coins and the attendant chooses the right price. My wife scolds me rightly but I have to find an excuse. The atendants’ mistakes cannot go one way only. So, their mistakes in her favour or on my favour, problably balance each other.
I hope I am matematically right, never checked !

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

TrueLight, I agree and the reason I even asked the question is because I remembered learning in CCD that when a person commits a mortal sin, they have to go to confession before receiving communion. I know that Catholics are required to go to mass every Sunday and I assume that they should also be receiving communion weekly. I would think that for someone to receive communion weekly that they would have to go to confession weekly as well just to play it safe since they probably don’t know which of their sins during the week were mortal and which were venial.

truthseekerjay, Catholic Doctrine is pretty confusing no? Better talk to a priest to sort that out… It will be a nice talk…

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Does this mean that, with respect to anger, a venial sin is always followed by a mortal sin? I guess one can realize that he/she is angry and try to calm themselves down, but would you say that a mortal sin already occurred when the person became angry?

I had an aunty with short fuse that thought like that: each time she got angry she thought she had commited a sin and could not go to communion. That’s where the exageration with mortal sins leads. She suffered a lot with that for she was not like me, a long fuse fellow. She just got angry easily but the anger passed rapidly (on the contrary of me ). But it was a cross for her, the scuples, the multiple confessions, the fear of dying without confession… Sometimes we had to run for the priest because she was afraid of dying and she wanted a priest.

Yet, she was the most brave, kindhearted, brilliant, corageous woman I ever met. For me, she was an example of Christ’s love. She raised me against all odds and I am what I am thanks to her. She gave me the vision that, not matter what, you fight for the good, you fight for God, you stay with Christ.

She stopped eating and it took 2 months for her to die. The suffered a lot. Much time later, the priest who went there to give her the holy communion (now he is in Lord’s Hands too) told me: “When your auntie did not die on the First Friday of September, I told myself, She will die on the First Friday of October”. On the First hours of the First Friday of October, she uttered “So much pain!” and she talked no more. She died at 4 a. m.

As far Heavens are from Earth, so My Thoughts are far from your thoughts, says the Lord - Bible.

 

[truthseekerjay]

Some people are claiming that we can know which of our sins are mortal. I’ve given a list of actions that I think could be seen by God as mortal sins. Which of these sins are mortal in God’s eyes and which are venial? If you have to slightly change the following situations, go ahead and do so and tell me how that would make it mortal or venial.

grave matter:

illegally downloading songs from the internet (stealing from artists and potentially cutting off their means of survival)
staring too long at a woman’s (or man’s) chest on an advertisement on tv (lust)
driving past the speed limit (endangering lives and possibly leading to vehicular MANSLAUGHTER)
gossiping/false accusations at work (could lead to a person getting fired and losing their means of survival)
not stopping gossiping/false accusations at work (could lead to a person getting fired and losing their means of survival)

 

[Ignatius]

Some people are claiming that we can know which of our sins are mortal.

God’s word tells us that all sin is not the same.

1John 5:16 - 17 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto deadly, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin that is mortal: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Furthermore this clearly illustrates that St. John expects us to know what is and is not objectively a mortal sin. He clearly does not see a problem with this. Now it is obvious that they must have a properly formed conscience in order to see this. Without being trained from a very early age to discern this, it would be very difficult, if not impossible.That is why we are required to “Train up a child in the way he should go.” If one is not “trained up in the way he should go”, he will not be trained to discern the difference.

 

[truthseekerjay]

Furthermore this clearly illustrates that St. John expects us to know what is and is not objectively a mortal sin. He clearly does not see a problem with this. Now it is obvious that they must have a properly formed conscience in order to see this. Without being trained from a very early age to discern this, it would be very difficult, if not impossible.That is why we are required to “Train up a child in the way he should go.” If one is not “trained up in the way he should go”, he will not be trained to discern the difference.

I’d like to assume that you have a properly formed conscience or at least progressing towards that state. In your opinion, which of the actions that I mentioned are mortal and which are venial?

 

[Bookcat]

Some things are requirements for Catholics…(like getting married according to the Catholic form etc) other things are universal…part of the moral law per se either by divine revelation or natural moral law…(like not committing murder or adultery or lust etc)

It is important though to point out…

It is not by being good…or not committing mortal sin that one enters friendship with God…a “state of grace”…

(though such can be a good sign of their seeking truth and goodness etc…of openness to the Living God)

Salvation though (entering that state of grace…)

—is through Jesus of Nazareth the Christ…via repentance and Faith and Baptism (to begin with)…

In him is true life…eternal life.

It is him we propose thus …relating the glad tidings of real life in his name.

God can though in ways known only to him … give grace to those even who have not even heard of Jesus.

What will happen to a particular Buddhist who has not come to know Christ etc? Is it thus still possible for him to enter into life at the end of this life? Yes such is possible. But such a possibility does not keep Christians from seeking to propose Christ to him and to all. For love of Christ and of him compels us…

 

[Bookcat]

grave matter:

illegally downloading songs from the internet (stealing from artists and potentially cutting off their means of survival)
staring too long at a woman’s chest on an advertisement on tv (lust)
driving past the speed limit (endangering lives and possibly leading to vehicular manslaughter or murder)
gossiping/false accusations at work (could lead to a person getting fired and losing their means of survival)

1. Such would be theft. ( I leave it to others the degree…) In any case it is theft…so one should not do it.
2. If such is lust then yes it is grave matter. It may though not be lust but perhaps some just noticing the attractive person’s figure and then catching oneself looking too long…etc etc.

(Catechism: 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.)

1. Driving too fast “can” yes be grave matter. Such as for example when one is endangering the lives of others or ones own.

(Catechism: 2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.)

1. Such can yes be grave…depending on what is said etc.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8K.HTM

 

[Bookcat]

The Catholic Faith is not so much about “laws” …though yes it is very important to do what is good and avoid what is evil…to do what God commands etc…

It is about – very importantly – Jesus of Nazareth…who is the Logos…the Son of God… It is he whom we follow.

He who was crucified and who is risen from the dead.

He who gives us true life. Eternal life.

It is he whom we propose to all. He who his the Way the Truth and the Life!

Now is it *possible * for say a Buddhist to enter into true life by the grace of God and later heaven after death? Even if he never has heard the name of Jesus or encountered and entered the Church? Yes it is possible. Jesus can work in ways we do not see. This is not though the ordinary way.

The Church teaches (in the CCC etc):

“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

(And it will be by the grace of God…and Jesus will still be who gives them this life…and still in some mysterious way this will involve the Church too. It is not their sincerity etc that saves them…)

And even if they do enter into salvation at the end of their journey they will have missed so much along the way. Missed knowing Jesus Christ here…and the beauty and joy of the fullness of Truth as God has given us …and the Sacraments etc etc…

 

[truthseekerjay]

1. Such would be theft. ( I leave it to others the degree…) In any case it is theft…so one should not do it.
2. If such is lust then yes it is grave matter. It may though not be lust but perhaps some just noticing the attractive person’s figure and then catching oneself looking too long…etc etc.

(Catechism: 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.)

1. Driving too fast “can” yes be grave matter. Such as for example when one is endangering the lives of others or ones own.

(Catechism: 2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.)

1. Such can yes be grave…depending on what is said etc.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8K.HTM

I’m glad that you see that some of these actions could potentially be mortal, but there are people who will argue that these are venial and honestly believe so in their heart. Based on what you know about Catholic doctrine and it’s beliefs on the definition of mortal sin, (in your opinion) will God be more lenient on them because they did not know any better?

 

[Bookcat]

I’m glad that you see that some of these actions could potentially be mortal, but there are people who will argue that these are venial and honestly believe so in their heart. Based on what you know about Catholic doctrine and it’s beliefs on the definition of mortal sin, (in your opinion) will God be more lenient on them because they did not know any better?

God knows them and what they know. Or do not know…

He will judge accordingly.

CCC

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

also: Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.(1859)

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

 

[Ignatius]

God’s word tells us that all sin is not

Hi brother Truthseeker,

In reading back over your posts, it seems that you are approaching this upside down. You want to know if someone has done this or that, is it a mortal sin. That is approaching it from the human perspective, exactly the opposite of the way we should look at it. We need to put God first, and before our actions, not afterwards. So, before doing something, "we ask  Is this pleasing to God?"

The information that you give in your examples is insufficient to determine whether or not the act is, in fact, mortal sin or not. God always looks at the state of the sinners heart. That is a very important factor. If you have already done something that you suspect is not pleasing to God and you are not sure about it, You should seek the guidance of a spiritual director to elicit further information as to weather it is Mortal sin or not.

 

[truthseekerjay]

Hi brother Truthseeker,

In reading back over your posts, it seems that you are approaching this upside down. You want to know if someone has done this or that, is it a mortal sin. That is approaching it from the human perspective, exactly the opposite of the way we should look at it. We need to put God first, and before our actions, not afterwards. So, before doing something, "we ask  Is this pleasing to God?"

The information that you give in your examples is insufficient to determine whether or not the act is, in fact, mortal sin or not. God always looks at the state of the sinners heart. That is a very important factor. If you have already done something that you suspect is not pleasing to God and you are not sure about it, You should seek the guidance of a spiritual director to elicit further information as to weather it is Mortal sin or not.

Ignatius, you have posted this verse a couple times: 1John 5:16 - 17 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

How do Catholics understand the part “I do not say that he shall pray for it.”?

Anyway, I hope that you don’t think that I posted the original question so that I can continue doing the things that people think are venial. I identify myself as Christian with mainline Protestant beliefs and I feel that ALL sin breaks our relationship with God. With my limited human knowledge, I usually think of sins as more severe if they have more severe visible consequences. So from past experience with visible consequences, I would say that stealing a $1000 item is PROBABLY worse than stealing a $3 item. However, with this line of thinking, a thief may steal a $3 item not knowing that it had sentimental value for the victim. We may have seen the results of our sins in the past, but we can’t be completely sure of the true effects of our sin. For all we know, pride could be worse in God’s eyes than murder (wasn’t pride the sin that got Satan kicked out of heaven?).

Back then, I used to think that it was not that bad to listen to gossip or to steal a $3 item, but it was only after I accepted Christ, that I started to see that these “minor” sins might actually have more serious consequences that I can’t see or understand with my human knowledge. To be completely honest and just so that everyone knows that I’m not trying to be judgmental, I still often fail with regards to these “minor” sins and choose to focus more on my sins that have visible consequences, like fixing my relationship with my family members and friends. However, I don’t expect God to be lenient with me for these “minor” sins and I TRY to be ready to receive whatever consequences they bring. I’m not perfect and I do have to pick my battles, but as I grow in Christ, I would hope that fixing these “minor” sins becomes more of a priority. Aren’t we supposed to be undergoing a process of purification all the time? To me, it seems like distinguishing between mortal and venial sins doesn’t give many people an incentive to fix the sins they perceive as venial, but this is just my opinion.

 

[Ignatius]

To me, it seems like distinguishing between mortal and venial sins doesn’t give many people an incentive to fix the sins they perceive as venial, but this is just my opinion.

Yes, brother, It is clear that you do not think that there is a difference, but The Word of God, which I have quoted several times, is very clear in The Gospel of John that says that there in fact is a great difference.

1John 5:16 - 17 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto deadth, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin that is deadly: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

If we are to grow closer to God and His will, we clearly must above all avoid those things that are most destructive to our relationship with Him. These are mortal or “sin unto death.” In our lifetime journey to grow in conformity with God’s plan for each of us we must first and formost avoid the most serious. And as we progress and grow in holiness, eleminate even the most trivial offenses as we grow in response to the grace that He provides to us. However, if we start in the innocence of childhoot, one would hope that we start by being obedient in the small things first and never fall in the more serious ones.

 

[truthseekerjay]

]1John 5:16 - 17 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto deadth, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin that is deadly: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

In the above verse, how do Catholics interpret the part that says “I do not say that he shall pray for it”?