What exactly is Cannon Law?

[TEPO]

…because there are no two Catholics alike anyways. When you think about it, look at the diversity of the Saints. Look at the diversity of CAF members…

Really traditionalists are a lot like the Orthodox, while the modernists are a lot like the Protestants… With this in mind, the goal for us should be to “undue” what was illfully done (on an earthly scale), just as Jesus “undid” what was illfully done for us (on an eternal scale). .

 

[Spirithound]

Im hoping to see -]the laws loosen up a little more still, to start allowing/-] former Protestants to receive more Sacraments… I honestly don’t see what harm could come from it.

Yes, I would also love for them to join the Catholic Church.

 

[TEPO]

Yes, I would also love for them to join the Catholic Church.

Well, that’s pretty much what I mean… I’m willing to allow a Baptized Christian to walk into a Catholic Church, enter the confessional, and then receive the Eucharist with no strings attached. That would make the Church completely open to the outside world, while maintaining her Spiritual orthodoxy within.

In this case,the problem of Ecumenism would be solved. Mission accomplished. …just like I’m completely satisfied with our take on Orthodoxy -they’re Orthodox and were Catholic, but we’re all in communion with Christ together… No need to convert, because we’re already there.

 

[TEPO]

In time, as the world seems to become smaller, we will ultimately have “undone” what the reformation did.

 

[Brendan]

Well, that’s pretty much what I mean… I’m willing to allow a Baptized Christian to walk into a Catholic Church, enter the confessional, and then receive the Eucharist with no strings attached.

When you say ‘enter the confessional’ do you mean to confess the various rejections of Catholic doctrines and thus join the Catholic Church? That could be done.

If you mean that they may confess sins but maintain beliefes in false doctrines, or to continue to reject that which the Church has decreed, they it really isn’t a confessiona at all

In this case,the problem of Ecumenism would be solved. Mission accomplished. …just like I’m completely satisfied with our take on Orthodoxy -they’re Orthodox and were Catholic, but we’re all in communion with Christ together… No need to convert, because we’re already there.

That is actually not quite true. The Orthodox, like all other non-Catholic Christians, lack the fullness of Truth that is the Catholic Church.

Without that, they labor under falsehood, and falsehood is anthithecal to a full relationship with Christ as Christ desires there to be.

So there will be a need for conversion. With Orthodoxy, they do retain the status of Particular Churches, so they reunion is best done by the bishops. For all others, the union must be by individual conversion.

Without the level of unity that comes with being united in the One Holy, Catholic Church, the Communion that is symbolized by the reception of the Holy Eucharist is not true Communion. And the Eucharist should never be used to symbolize that which is false.

 

[TEPO]

When you say ‘enter the confessional’ do you mean to confess the various rejections of Catholic doctrines and thus join the Catholic Church? That could be done.

If you mean that they may confess sins but maintain beliefes in false doctrines, or to continue to reject that which the Church has decreed, they it really isn’t a confessiona at all

But it’s not a mortal sin to not believe in Catholic doctrines at all… Personally, I’ve never heard of anyone confessing their failure to believe a doctrine, although it is important to confess all sinful thought or acts that the Church claims as evil.

That is actually not quite true. The Orthodox, like all other non-Catholic Christians, lack the fullness of Truth that is the Catholic Church.

Without that, they labor under falsehood, and falsehood is anthithecal to a full relationship with Christ as Christ desires there to be.

So there will be a need for conversion. With Orthodoxy, they do retain the status of Particular Churches, so they reunion is best done by the bishops. For all others, the union must be by individual conversion.

Without the level of unity that comes with being united in the One Holy, Catholic Church, the Communion that is symbolized by the reception of the Holy Eucharist is not true Communion. And the Eucharist should never be used to symbolize that which is false.

The Decree on Ecumenism [no. 17]of the Second Vatican Council says, *“In the study of revelation East and West have followed different methods, and have developed differently their understanding and confession of God’s truth”

“It is hardly surprising, then, if from time to time one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed it to better advantage. In such cases, these various theological expressions are to be considered often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting.”*
vatican.va/archive/hist_c…gratio_en.html

…when the Living Magesterium says things like this, we can only conclude that the Orthodox belong to the same Church that we do… Only difference is that they were brought-up slightly different because of geographical barriers. Really, they are us a thousand years ago -having not changed at all since we became seperated. The two Churches are only seperate in the physical world, but spiritually, we’re one in the same.

 

[TEPO]

Also, I’d like to add that the Fullness of Truth that we posess through our Living Magesterium is merely our beacon -as we travel through time here, where sin changes form and we must adapt to it, but Spiritually and eternally, there is no new Divine Revelation… Just Public Revelation through the Living Magesterium, which is what seperates the Catholic from the Orthodox… Here on earth.

 

[thistle]

But it’s not a mortal sin to not believe in Catholic doctrines at all…. Personally, I’ve never heard of anyone confessing their failure to believe a doctrine, although it is important to confess all sinful thought or acts that the Church claims as evil.

The Decree on Ecumenism [no. 17]of the Second Vatican Council says, *“In the study of revelation East and West have followed different methods, and have developed differently their understanding and confession of God’s truth”

“It is hardly surprising, then, if from time to time one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed it to better advantage. In such cases, these various theological expressions are to be considered often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting.”*
vatican.va/archive/hist_c…gratio_en.html

…when the Living Magesterium says things like this, we can only conclude that the Orthodox belong to the same Church that we do… Only difference is that they were brought-up slightly different because of geographical barriers. Really, they are us a thousand years ago -having not changed at all since we became seperated. The two Churches are only seperate in the physical world, but spiritually, we’re one in the same.

That is not true. Any Catholic who rejects/denies or has an obstinate doubt about any infallible doctrine not only commits a sin of grave matter but also commits heresy.

 

[TEPO]

That is not true. Any Catholic who rejects/denies or has an obstinate doubt about any infallible doctrine not only commits a sin of grave matter but also commits heresy.

I’ve never heard this… I don’t believe that any sin can be “grave” in nature unless it is in violation of one of the ten commandments, in which doubting a doctrine is not. Speaking out against the Church is heresy, yes -but even then it cannot be considered a mortal sin because again its not in violation of any of the ten commandments… Heresy can become a grave matter though if the Pope excommunicates a heretic, which of course he has every right to do because he has the authority to bind and loosen.

But all that is required to receive communion in terms of unchangeable dogma, is faith in:

• What you are receiving is in fact Jesus.
• one must be free of mortal sin through confession
• faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
• must be Christian through Baptism

All the other requirements, I think, are based on Canon Law, which are changeable according to what the Pope chooses to bind or loosen. This authority was given by Jesus Christ, the Head of our Church in the Bible for all to know. But if you know I’m in the wrong, please feel free to correct my errors to prevent me from falling into dissent.

 

[thistle]

I’ve never heard this… I don’t believe that any sin can be “grave” in nature unless it is in violation of one of the ten commandments, in which doubting a doctrine is not. Speaking out against the Church is heresy, yes -but even then it cannot be considered a mortal sin because again its not in violation of any of the ten commandments… Heresy can become a grave matter though if the Pope excommunicates a heretic, which of course he has every right to do because he has the authority to bind and loosen.

But all that is required to receive communion in terms of unchangeable dogma, is faith in:

• What you are receiving is in fact Jesus.
• one must be free of mortal sin through confession
• faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
• must be Christian through Baptism

All the other requirements, I think, are based on Canon Law, which are changeable according to what the Pope chooses to bind or loosen. This authority was given by Jesus Christ, the Head of our Church in the Bible for all to know. But if you know I’m in the wrong, please feel free to correct my errors to prevent me from falling into dissent.

I’m absolutely speechless. You are Catholic and did not know that rejecting/denying infallible teachings is a sin of grave matter. I suggest you talk to your priest and you really need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

By the way heresy is automatic excommunication. The Pope is not required to be involved.

 

[TEPO]

I’m absolutely speechless. You are Catholic and did not know that rejecting/denying infallible teachings is a sin of grave matter. I suggest you talk to your priest and you really need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

By the way heresy is automatic excommunication. The Pope is not required to be involved.

This is clearly not true. If it were, that would mean that all Catholics would have to confess each and every time they ever questioned any aspect of their faith, even if it were just for a breif moment. Every single episode of this would have to be confessed to be forgiven or else face condemnation. But this can’t be so, because the ten commandments tell us that we have to actually either worship a false god or blaspheme the Holy Trinity. Our denial of a doctrine does not equate to denying God. Doctrines are provided rather for our benefit to learn, and become closer to God… This is a process which for some can take an entire lifetime.

 

[TheDoctor]

I’ve never heard this… I don’t believe that any sin can be “grave” in nature unless it is in violation of one of the ten commandments, in which doubting a doctrine is not.

No actually, it is.

From the Catechism:“YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND”

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:
**Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. **Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089 *Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."I
You can’t really get any more clear than that.

 

[TEPO]

No actually, it is.

From the Catechism:“YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND”

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:
Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089 *Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."I
You can’t really get any more clear than that.

Three things:

1.) My argument is only based in whether or not “doubting” a doctrine is a Mortal Sin or not… I agree that it is a sin to do so, but i think its only of the venial kind, because I have yet to see any Church documents that say it is mortal or “grave” in nature.

2.) If doubting a doctrine or two is in fact only a venial sin, then a non Catechized person who is Baptized in any Christian Church could one day be able to receive Communion since the Mass itself forgives the venial sins of all the rest of us sinners… Which the Church has always done, and is not wrong in any way -rather it is Gods will.

3.) Ultimately, the duties of the Church are many, but of all Her duties, there is not a hint of suggestion aside from the changing Canon Laws which calls us to withhold the sacredness of our mysteries from those who wish to take part, even if their desire to enter into the mysteries cannot be tested or proven or tried… Even if their desire is seen as likely to pass. I think that our willingness to open-up to the world is an important part of setting the example that God is open to all those who come to Him… He is open to all truth and He is open to all faith because both truth and faith come from Him. So too the Church should be open. This is my opinion, and I hope that I haven’t crossed any lines by saying this.

 

[TEPO]

In the old days, when the Church was large, and the world was large, the Church didn’t need to be so open… Even from the times of the Jews, there was no seperation between the old Church and the Law. Naturalists such as the Gnostics were outcasts.

This is not so today. The world is small, and the Church is growing small. The Naturalists are accepted now as the average man. It’s time for the Church to open-up. It’s time to rebuild that which has been destroyed --our world.

 

[Spirithound]

1.) My argument is only based in whether or not “doubting” a doctrine is a Mortal Sin or not…

2.) If doubting a doctrine or two is in fact only a venial sin, then a non Catechized person who is Baptized in any Christian Church could one day be able to receive Communion since the Mass itself forgives the venial sins

It depends on what you mean by “doubting”. If you mean merely questioning and genuinely seeking the answer, it is no sin at all. But if you’re not open to learning, you’re not open to grace. However, non-Catholics generally do not have access to absolution of their other mortal sins, and thus still cannot be admitted to Holy Communion. And if you think they can just go to Confession, why not ask them what they think of that?

In the old days, when the Church was large, and the world was large, the Church didn’t need to be so open…

This is not so today. The world is small, and the Church is growing small. It’s time for the Church to open-up.

No. This is a utilitarian philosophy. In this Church, we do not play a numbers game.

 

[thistle]

Three things:

1.) My argument is only based in whether or not “doubting” a doctrine is a Mortal Sin or not… I agree that it is a sin to do so, but i think its only of the venial kind, because I have yet to see any Church documents that say it is mortal or “grave” in nature.

2.) If doubting a doctrine or two is in fact only a venial sin, then a non Catechized person who is Baptized in any Christian Church could one day be able to receive Communion since the Mass itself forgives the venial sins of all the rest of us sinners… Which the Church has always done, and is not wrong in any way -rather it is Gods will.

3.) Ultimately, the duties of the Church are many, but of all Her duties, there is not a hint of suggestion aside from the changing Canon Laws which calls us to withhold the sacredness of our mysteries from those who wish to take part, even if their desire to enter into the mysteries cannot be tested or proven or tried… Even if their desire is seen as likely to pass. I think that our willingness to open-up to the world is an important part of setting the example that God is open to all those who come to Him… He is open to all truth and He is open to all faith because both truth and faith come from Him. So too the Church should be open. This is my opinion, and I hope that I haven’t crossed any lines by saying this.

You are not being very clear. You may have doubts about a particular doctrine but still accept it and obey, and of course try to gain an understanding of the teaching.

On the other hand if you have obstinate doubts about an infallible doctrine and refuse to believe it because of these obstinate doubts then that is both a sin of grave matter and heresy.
TheDoctor has already given you the CCC sections on this in his post.

On another issue I’m curious. You keep talking about Canon law and never mention the CCC.
Although Canon Law binds all Catholics (clergy and lay people) it is mainly aimed at the clergy.
The CCC contains the Church teachings with explanations and footnotes to Scripture and other Church documents which underpin the teachings. The CCC should be your focus for reading and not Canon law.

 

[Vico]

Ad Tuendem Fidem:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_30061998_ad-tuendam-fidem_en.html

 

[TEPO]

You are not being very clear. You may have doubts about a particular doctrine but still accept it and obey, and of course try to gain an understanding of the teaching.

On the other hand if you have obstinate doubts about an infallible doctrine and refuse to believe it because of these obstinate doubts then that is both a sin of grave matter and heresy.
TheDoctor has already given you the CCC sections on this in his post.

On another issue I’m curious. You keep talking about Canon law and never mention the CCC.
Although Canon Law binds all Catholics (clergy and lay people) it is mainly aimed at the clergy.
The CCC contains the Church teachings with explanations and footnotes to Scripture and other Church documents which underpin the teachings. The CCC should be your focus for reading and not Canon law.

Well I have no issues on Church teaching, I accept them all wholeheartedly. My focus here is only on “opening-up” the Holy Church. Not to water things down by allowing less orthodox Christians in it because that is completely absurd and impossible, and cannot happen. My point is only to draw attention to Gods will and to understand what the cannons are, first of all, and then explore the possibility of actually saving souls, by opening-up the Holy Church.

Unlike many Catholics, I personally believe that Satan is real. I think He’s a copy-cat. I believe he copied a snake, then an angel, and then a bronze-smith named Tubalcain, and now -I think he’s mimicked our Church. But he always takes it to the very furthest limits. Our Chirch requires one to “register” as a member, which is clearly a worldly thing to do. Non-Catholics might even think that we are members of some kind of elitist type religion. Still yet, others might believe that the Holy Church holds secrets, and that there are secret scandals here. Honestly, did the devil not already take the shape of Gods creation prior to slithering into the garden? Likewise, hadn’t the lodges already Been shaped like our Church, with their own deacons and hierarchy? Did they not mimick our closed-ness in membership? And when official charges came up here, now what non-Catholic can tell the difference? The difference between The Church that worships God alone and the Church that worships the world as well as the deeds of men.

I believe that the Catholic Church worked closely with the governments of the world. Now I think she has been replaced by the Church of Satan. Popes have said this! They still do! The Pope is infallible! So why do YOU think the time are changing, and the process of ecumenism has begun? Are we reacting to the movements of the devil?

I’m sorry for being so honest here, I’m even embarrassed to post this, but I think I’ve hit the root of our problem in this age, and why things are happening like they are. Sorry again, and we can take this in any direction from this point.

 

[TEPO]

Maybe by changing the way the Church works in the world, we can continue to achieve His plan for HIS Church on earth. If its what He wants…

 

[Spirithound]

My focus here is only on “opening-up” the Holy Church. Not to water things down by allowing less orthodox Christians in it because that is completely absurd and impossible, and cannot happen. My point is only to draw attention to Gods will and to understand what the cannons are, first of all, and then explore the possibility of actually saving souls, by opening-up the Holy Church.

Do you believe your plan for saving souls will work better than the current model of RCIA catechesis?

Did they not mimick our closed-ness in membership?

The Catholic Church does not have a closed membership. Everyone is welcome to join. You just have to…join.

Now I think she has been replaced by the Church of Satan. Popes have said this!

I’m pretty sure this is not what Pope Paul VI said…