What exactly is dark night of the soul?

[fhansen]

God “does” this to us out of love. If you think that this is hard for you, try to imagine how hard it is for God to watch you suffer through it. this is the stage where virtue begins to come to perfection. all of the selfish loves you have (especially loving God because it makes you happy) are burnt away here. true virtue consists in doing the right thing even when there is no satisfaction or reward in doing so. A true love of God consists (just like in marriage) not in the feelings or the longings, but in the conviction and steadfastness in faith and hope in loving God. This may be a temporary state for you, as St. John of the Cross says that most times God dips souls in and out of this purification throughout thier lives. The main point is this, “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? don’t the pharasees and tax collectors do the same?” Love God. Love God when it’s easy, and love God when it’s hard. He may feel like an enemy sometimes because you feel rejected, but know that He is not and love Him anyways. This purification of the love of God perfects the souls love for Him so that it is pure and not muddled and mingled with self-love. Think of it as God training you not to be a spiritual “fair weather friend” . Does this help?

This makes sense to me. I think that it also seeks to elicit a greater thirst for God in us.

 

[glenaitken]

This makes sense to me. I think that it also seeks to elicit a greater thirst for God in us.

Absolutely! This is actually one of the greatest pains of the dark night of the spirit- thirst for God. It enables us to identify with the crucified Christ as he whispers fro mthe cross, “I Thirst”. It is a twofold thirst:

1. A thirst for God and holiness/rightiousness (rightiousness is “friendship with God”, and so all of these concepts are blended here).
2. A thirst for souls- St. Therese of LIsuex (i know i spelled this wrong) talks about it in the Story of a Soul. In the thirst for God, the soul, through grace in being present to the crucified Lord in suffering, then thirsts with Christ for the salvation of all. the purified love of God naturally seeks to bring other to Him and salvation.

 

[distracted]

all of the selfish loves you have (especially loving God because it makes you happy) are burnt away here. true virtue consists in doing the right thing even when there is no satisfaction or reward in doing so.

“all the selfish loves you have”… I suppose my “loves” are more selfish than i tend to believe…

I know a lot of selfishness in love is caused by not being loved right as a child… But then, in my old age rolleyes: ) I have come to realize that there is no one who was “loved right as a child” becuase we all had imperfect, sinful parents…

The main point is this, “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? don’t the pharasees and tax collectors do the same?”

. He may feel like an enemy sometimes because you feel rejected,

Yeah, that’s about the story of my life…

. Does this help?

It helps a lot. And you obviously have been through this yourself?

Congratulations…

 

[glenaitken]

It helps a lot. And you obviously have been through this yourself?

…

Glad i could help, and yes, I know your pain. Starts to get a little better after about six years.

 

[distracted]

yes, I know your pain. Starts to get a little better after about six years.

Hmm… I am trying to remember when i started going through it…

I probably have about 4 years to go…

 

[glenaitken]

Hmm… I am trying to remember when i started going through it…

I probably have about 4 years to go…

first two years are pure hell. It also depends on the degree of purificatioon neccessary, and what God wishes to do with your soul. Its not really the same for everybody (it doesn’t always look the same) because we are all different, but it does always have the same basic themes and effect- particular situations may vary, but it’s all basically the same experiance although it may differ in intensity and length.

 

[distracted]

first two years are pure hell.

I think i am in this phase…

It also depends on the degree of purificatioon neccessary,

The Holy spirit seemed to reveal this to me, that i needed a serious purification… I used to think that a person just needed to be OK w/ God, but the Lord has shown me that we also need to be OK with our fellow man… I have always struggled w/ that because i have been mistreated over and over by human beings (starting w/ a parent…).

Its not really the same for everybody (it doesn’t always look the same) because we are all different, but it does always have the same basic themes and effect- particular situations may vary, but it’s all basically the same experiance although it may differ in intensity and length.

You sound like someone who is deep into God.

The Holy Spirit also revealed to me what you said, about how it is not the same for everyone. I have particular “isuses” no one else has… or very few have… Even so, as you say, it is “basically the same experience…”

Do you ever ask God to just take you home?? I mean, for one thing, the longer we live, the more sin we are likely to fall into… I don’t fall into what would be considered big sin these days… but, well, for one thing, i am more sensitive to the sin around me… & that is HELL… :hypno:

God bless…

 

[fhansen]

Do you ever ask God to just take you home?? I mean, for one thing, the longer we live, the more sin we are likely to fall into… I don’t fall into what would be considered big sin these days… but, well, for one thing, i am more sensitive to the sin around me… & that is HELL… :hypno:

God bless…

I think one can’t help but “want to go home” sometimes but it wouldn’t seem right to ask for it. I had a very profound experience of God long ago but even with that my appetites for the things of this world are still quite operable. The thirst for this indescribably awesome God has become greater but while temporal attachments seem to diminish as my will becomes educated about and jaded by their false promises and lack of ability to satisfy, they nonetheless don’t just disappear. So, even tho it’s hard, it seems good to me that God would give me more time to sort this out and make a firmer decision for Him-perhaps I’ll even get home quicker that way in the end.

 

[glenaitken]

There’s no place like home
Your missing the point of purification. It’s not that you are one foot in hell, but you are one foot in heaven, and that’s why the other foot feels like it’s in hell. when half of you is longing for God and the other half has to pay the electric bill, put up with this damn arthritus, and deal with everything else in the earthly life, it can feel like hell, especially when you’ve become re-sensitized to sin (Most are desensitized at a young age, part of the purification is a re-sensitization to the horror of sin). Pray for sinners, and the swelling of sin will diminish around you- or find new friends who don’t offend God.
Don’t be in a rush to die, or you’ll forget how to live. this is a common mistake, and it can rob years from your life with your family. live well, and the lord will handle the rest.

 

[distracted]

but while temporal attachments seem to diminish as my will becomes educated about and jaded by their false promises and lack of ability to satisfy, they nonetheless don’t just disappear.

I could have written this myself… only maybe not so eloquently

So, even tho it’s hard, it seems good to me that God would give me more time to sort this out and make a firmer decision for Him-perhaps I’ll even get home quicker that way in the end.

Also, i think one reason God doesn’t take some really devout Christians is because they can do so much good in the world (other than the good of “sort[ing] this out…(etc)”. I mean, even if all we do is pray, that is powerful…

Also: Do you think it is actually a sin to ask God to take us home?? I have done so recently, but like you, i wasn’t 100% about the idea… (more like 94%)…

 

[distracted]

There’s no place like home

Maybe i should do like Dorothy & click my ruby red slippers together…

It’s not that you are one foot in hell, but you are one foot in heaven, and that’s why the other foot feels like it’s in hell. when half of you is longing for God and the other half has to pay the electric bill, put up with this damn arthritus, and deal with everything else in the earthly life, it can feel like hell, especially when you’ve become re-sensitized to sin (Most are desensitized at a young age, part of the purification is a re-sensitization to the horror of sin)…

You just described my life…

It is so wonderful to be understood even if it is by someone who doesn’t know me… :hypno:

 

[fhansen]

I could have written this myself… only maybe not so eloquently

Also, i think one reason God doesn’t take some really devout Christians is because they can do so much good in the world (other than the good of “sort[ing] this out…(etc)”. I mean, even if all we do is pray, that is powerful…

Also: Do you think it is actually a sin to ask God to take us home?? I have done so recently, but like you, i wasn’t 100% about the idea… (more like 94%)…

Of course God understands the desire to be with Him- and get out of here -but our ability to truly love Him and our neighbor is tested here. So while growing tired of this world is a good thing I think it’s also a good thing that we learn how to be more comfortable with being sold out to God in a pretty much Godless world. That would seem to be part of the molding process. Also, your comment about sticking around to help others get there, too, is a BIG part of the whole deal.

 

[glenaitken]

Maybe i should do like Dorothy & click my ruby red slippers together…

You just described my life…

It is so wonderful to be understood even if it is by someone who doesn’t know me… :hypno:

I’m glad to hear that there is more than one person out there too. a sense of humor, especially a funny bone for irony and obsurdities, helps as we go. there’s just so much that doesn’t add up sometimes that you’ve got to laugh at the idea that christ is asleep on the bow and steering the boat at the same time during the storm! I am a highly type A personality, and so the good Lord drives me crazy sometimes (more than likely part of my own purification process). For example, i was certain that the Lord was calling me to grad school. I could feel it in my bones. I am a good teacher, and I love theology. A friend of mine said that she felt God saying that I should go ahead and apply too (when sge was praying). After alot of prayer and discernment, i applied for a master’s program in theology that was on scholarship. I felt sure that i had followed what God wanted for me. I got the rejection e-mail just a few weeks ago. I know that I did what God called me to do- to apply, but I also thought that I would have gotten the scholarship. I wasn’t heartbroken, just confused and disappointed that God led me down a dead end that I won’t undrerstand until I’m in heaven. He knows what’s best, but I sure wish He’d share his thoughts with me.
We follow Christ in the storm, we follow Him in the darkness, we follow Him through obsurdity and obscurity, and then we follow him to the Cross. There is nothing else. We follow Him and then become Him to others. I become His voice to my students. I become His hands to the needy. I become His feet to the unevangelized. I become Him as Husband to my wife, and Him as Father to my daughter. In this process of becoming, we are revealed to ourselves. It is in the realization of my limitations that I can see where He begins, and it is in the understanding of my God that I can see my nothingness. Purification is a bitter-sweet humility.

 

[fhansen]

I’m glad to hear that there is more than one person out there too. a sense of humor, especially a funny bone for irony and obsurdities, helps as we go. there’s just so much that doesn’t add up sometimes that you’ve got to laugh at the idea that christ is asleep on the bow and steering the boat at the same time during the storm! I am a highly type A personality, and so the good Lord drives me crazy sometimes (more than likely part of my own purification process). For example, i was certain that the Lord was calling me to grad school. I could feel it in my bones. I am a good teacher, and I love theology. A friend of mine said that she felt God saying that I should go ahead and apply too (when sge was praying). After alot of prayer and discernment, i applied for a master’s program in theology that was on scholarship. I felt sure that i had followed what God wanted for me. I got the rejection e-mail just a few weeks ago. I know that I did what God called me to do- to apply, but I also thought that I would have gotten the scholarship. I wasn’t heartbroken, just confused and disappointed that God led me down a dead end that I won’t undrerstand until I’m in heaven. He knows what’s best, but I sure wish He’d share his thoughts with me.
We follow Christ in the storm, we follow Him in the darkness, we follow Him through obsurdity and obscurity, and then we follow him to the Cross. There is nothing else. We follow Him and then become Him to others. I become His voice to my students. I become His hands to the needy. I become His feet to the unevangelized. I become Him as Husband to my wife, and Him as Father to my daughter. In this process of becoming, we are revealed to ourselves. It is in the realization of my limitations that I can see where He begins, and it is in the understanding of my God that I can see my nothingness. Purification is a bitter-sweet humility.

I’m sorry about your disappointment but I’m sure you know that often God does fill us in as to the reasons why-before heaven, I mean- but it may come as hindsight after a period of time.

As far as wanting to go home, St Paul said he wasn’t sure if it was better to go home to be with the Lord or to stay here. He ended up sticking it out even tho it meant crucifixion in the end and we’ve all benefited by his time on earth. I guess it ain’t always easy.

 

[glenaitken]

I’m sorry about your disappointment but I’m sure you know that often God does fill us in as to the reasons why-before heaven, I mean- but it may come as hindsight after a period of time.

As far as wanting to go home, St Paul said he wasn’t sure if it was better to go home to be with the Lord or to stay here. He ended up sticking it out even tho it meant crucifixion in the end and we’ve all benefited by his time on earth. I guess it ain’t always easy.

I agree. I don’t expect an answer about my questions anytime soon, though. I am just happy to know that there are answers. I am sure that God has a path for my life, I just don’t like the “Wandering in the darkness” part of it all, but hey, who does?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It is my belief that souls who are at the level of spiritual development, that they are in the “Dark Night of the Soul,” would not be participating in these forums. Such souls are completely detached not only from things of the world, but spiritual things that are done on the human level, such as we are here.

St. John of the Cross wrote in his Spiritual Canticle.

Ah, who has the power to heal me?
Now wholly surrender yourself!
Do not send me
any more messengers;
they cannot tell me what I must hear.

By this he means, that the soul is longing for no one or anything else, other than Christ. No preaching, good books or talking on spiritual things can sooth the pain that the soul is experiencing, at this point, but in fact, the soul finds them a burdensome and a distraction. The soul, wounded by love’s urgent longing, only seeks Christ, not mens words about Christ.

Jim

 

[BarbaraTherese]

It is my belief that souls who are at the level of spiritual development, that they are in the “Dark Night of the Soul,” would not be participating in these forums. Such souls are completely detached not only from things of the world, but spiritual things that are done on the human level, such as we are here.

St. John of the Cross wrote in his Spiritual Canticle.

By this he means, that the soul is longing for no one or anything else, other than Christ. No preaching, good books or talking on spiritual things can sooth the pain that the soul is experiencing, at this point, but in fact, the soul finds them a burdensome and a distraction. The soul, wounded by love’s urgent longing, only seeks Christ, not mens words about Christ.

Jim

…well said…while being careful not to “confine God” …who can do all things…

 

[BarbaraTherese]

While not necessarily taking on board every thought and word expressed by an author, if one sifts what one may consider the chaff from the wheat in places (and perhaps at the conclusion of the article where Sister Constance discusses specifically “Feminine Impasse” which I do not challenge, it simply disinterests me - and I may well be remiss in this!!!), one of the best contemporary texts on The Dark Night in the tradition of St. John of The Cross comes from Sister Constance Fitzgerald, OCD:
geocities.com/baltimorecarmel/johncross/impasse.html

…part only of overall text…:…By impasse, I mean that there is no way out of, no way around, no rational escape from, what imprisons one, no possibilities in the situation. In a true impasse, every normal manner of acting is brought to a standstill, and ironically, impasse is experienced not only in the problem itself but also in any solution rationally attempted. Every logical solution remains unsatisfying, at the very least. The whole life situation suffers a depletion, has the word limits written upon it. Dorothee Soelle describes it as “unavoidable suffering,” an apt symbol of which is physical imprisonment, with its experience of being squeezed into a confined space. Any movement out, any next step, is canceled, and the most dangerous temptation is to give up, to quit, to surrender to cynicism and despair, in the face of the disappointment, disenchantment, hopelessness, and loss of meaning that encompass one.

With today’s knowledge we have modern ‘in use’ words to cover whole concepts that St. John of The Cross did not have available to his thought and pen in his day. This cannot in any way whatsoever take away from the writings of St. John of The Cross…what it can do is shed more light on them in the context of contemporary understandings of life and living.

Blessings this Easter…Barb

 

[InLight247]

My understanding is many may go through “Dark Night of the Sense”, very few go through “Dark Night of the Spirit”.

If one really wants to try to understand dark night, read St. John of the Cross, not only read once, but to read it again and again.

 

[glenaitken]

I’ve seen the topic of detachment coming up alot in the last few posts. I think that there is some confusion about what holy detachment is. Holy detachment is like being poor in spirit- It doesn’t mean that a person doesn’t use a computer. It doesn’t mean that a person doesn’t read or talk about God. It is true that none of these things soothes the soul in this kind of detachment, but that does not mean that there is no joy in hearing about another’s love for the beloved. This is a very bitter-sweet type of thing.
Jim,
The soul seeks her beloved Christ- Jim, you are right. Have you ever been in love? then you know that when the beloved is absent, no amount of speach will suffice, but if someone would speak to you about your bride, it would not only bring you some small joy to think of her in your conversation, but the conversation would also be a source of pain for you because it would deepen your longing for your beloved. This is more the experiance we are talking about here, not some miserable soul who is heartbroken into sloth or one who gives up, but God (even in His absence) becomes the soul’s strength and hope in love.
Just because someone has the ability to type does not mean that he is attached to the computer. detachment is more about the proper order of the loves of the soul than it is about not loving things. For example, king David did not love his wealth, but he saw his wealth as a means of serving God and therefore used it for His greater glory. This is detachment. THis is Holy Poverty- Bieng poor in spirit. It is loving all things in thier proper place. material goods should not be loved any more than they can help others or bring about good and give glory to God- ie: feeding the poor, clothing the naked, etc. one should love others, but not more than God. God should be the first love, and all other loves should be ordered to trhe love of Him. I love my wife because I love God. I love my daughter because I love God. In loving my wife and daughter I grow in love for God and in the practice of virtue. I know that, sadly, niether my wife, my daughter, or myself will live forever and that we all must die one day. for me, they are my treasures in this life, but they are my Lord’s treasures also that I am a steward of. one day He will call them to His side, and it will be the greatest test of my life to be able to look at Him and saywith our Blessed Mother, “Fiat”. if I do not practice holy detachment in my relationships, I will see them as “Mine”, which they are not- They are God’s. And so, for love of God, I try to care for the people he has entrusted to me and blessed me with. In this way, I begin to love my family with Divine Love (as it is united to Christ) and I see a foretaste of the Life to Come.

InLight247,
I disagree, not with the first part, but with the second part of your post. Reading John of the Cross will not help you understand. I say this becuase the first two times I read John of the Cross, he made absolutely no sense to me (even though I had been devoutly prayerful for years up until that point- daily rosary, reagular mass attendance, etc.) Then I read him again ten years later and he started to make a little sense, but there was a definite point of departure when he began talking about the dark night of the spirit. The mystics are trying to convey experiances that are not common, and so when you read them they are saying things that someone may not have a frame of referance for becuase of a lack of experiance. once one has the experiance, they have the frame of referance, and so the book makes sense. now, twenty years later, when I read John of the Cross twice more, and the dark night makes sense, but the majority of the end of the book is still a mystery to me. My basic point is this- reading about Christ cannot help you to know HIm, only experiancing Christ can give you knowledge of Him. It is the same with John of the Cross and the Dark night.