What exactly is dark night of the soul?

[Michael_Neal]

I have read about many saints who did not go through a dark night of the soul? Is it necessary to go through this or is it simply one of the potential crosses one might bear in their struggle for holiness?

 

[glenaitken]

I have read about many saints who did not go through a dark night of the soul? Is it necessary to go through this or is it simply one of the potential crosses one might bear in their struggle for holiness?

It is not necessary, there are greater saints than John of the Cross and St. Therese and Mother Theresa who we have no record of having the dark night. It is simpy in proportion to the will of God and HIs plan. Sanctity takes on many visible forms, but the common invisible thread is love of God and a virtuous life of prayer and service.

 

[InLight247]

InLight247, I disagree, not with the first part, but with the second part of your post. Reading John of the Cross will not help you understand. I say this becuase the first two times I read John of the Cross, he made absolutely no sense to me (even though I had been devoutly prayerful for years up until that point- daily rosary, reagular mass attendance, etc.) Then I read him again ten years later and he started to make a little sense, but there was a definite point of departure when he began talking about the dark night of the spirit. The mystics are trying to convey experiances that are not common, and so when you read them they are saying things that someone may not have a frame of referance for becuase of a lack of experiance. once one has the experiance, they have the frame of referance, and so the book makes sense. now, twenty years later, when I read John of the Cross twice more, and the dark night makes sense, but the majority of the end of the book is still a mystery to me. My basic point is this- reading about Christ cannot help you to know HIm, only experiancing Christ can give you knowledge of Him. It is the same with John of the Cross and the Dark night.

I totally agree with your disagreement.

When I said to read St. John of the Cross, I was cutting in from the point of view that many are confused their dryness, aridity, lack of interest, distance from God caused by personal problems, stresses and daily crosses with dark night. By reading St. John, they will at least get a better concept what dark night is and what it is not. I often tend to keep my posting short and sometimes my briefness fails to make the point clear.

Faith is an experience, not a theory or theology. Like you said, unless one has the experience, one will not understand what St. John was talking about.
I just started to read the collected work of St. John a few months ago. I would not even be interested in reading him several years before. When I read the night of sense, I found many things I could identify with, quite a few of my own experiences. Yet I have never felt I have gone through the dark night of sense. Most of the time I feel the joy of the Lord, even while experiencing those things described in the dark night of sense. I made marks on the pages such as “Could I have been through all these without realization?” I guess I could.

I have not got into the part of dark night of the spirit yet due to so many other books to read at the same time. But I know even for lot of Saints, they had never gone through this part of dark night. Very few go through dark night of spirit which is the real dark night.

I think it is better to focus on following Jesus. It is good to understand different phases of our spiritual journdy, but the bottom line is to grow our love in the Lord and to others.

God bless!

 

[glenaitken]

I totally agree with your disagreement.

When I said to read St. John of the Cross, I was cutting in from the point of view that many are confused their dryness, aridity, lack of interest, distance from God caused by personal problems, stresses and daily crosses with dark night. By reading St. John, they will at least get a better concept what dark night is and what it is not. I often tend to keep my posting short and sometimes my briefness fails to make the point clear.

Faith is an experience, not a theory or theology. Like you said, unless one has the experience, one will not understand what St. John was talking about.
I just started to read the collected work of St. John a few months ago. I would not even be interested in reading him several years before. When I read the night of sense, I found many things I could identify with, quite a few of my own experiences. Yet I have never felt I have gone through the dark night of sense. Most of the time I feel the joy of the Lord, even while experiencing those things described in the dark night of sense. I made marks on the pages such as “Could I have been through all these without realization?” I guess I could.

I have not got into the part of dark night of the spirit yet due to so many other books to read at the same time. But I know even for lot of Saints, they had never gone through this part of dark night. Very few go through dark night of spirit which is the real dark night.

I think it is better to focus on following Jesus. It is good to understand different phases of our spiritual journdy, but the bottom line is to grow our love in the Lord and to others.

God bless!

I believe that we completely agree. I apologize for misreading your statement. I think we both see it the same way:thumbsup:

 

[distracted]

QUOTE=fhansen;3469295]Of course God understands the desire to be with Him- and get out of here -but our ability to truly love Him and our neighbor is tested here. .

So true… & i don’t feel my testing is complete yet… or, another way of putting it: If i were tested at this point, i might get a D whereas if i linger here on Earth a little longer, i may end up getting a higher grade…

Anyway… your post made me think … which is always a good thing… (particularly considering how my mind seems to be going to mush lately )…

I just proved that last point because i can’t remember the other thing i was thinking about after reading the post… :hypno: :doh2:

Maybe it will come to me later… Hope so, cause it was good

thanks and God bless…

 

[distracted]

Of course God understands the desire to be with Him- and get out of here -but our ability to truly love Him and our neighbor is tested here. .

So true… & i don’t feel my testing is complete yet… or, another way of putting it: If i were tested at this point, i might get a D whereas if i linger here on Earth a little longer, i may end up getting a higher grade…

Anyway… your post made me think … which is always a good thing… (particularly considering how my mind seems to be going to mush lately )…

I just proved that last point because i can’t remember the other thing i was thinking about after reading the post… :hypno: :doh2:

Maybe it will come to me later… Hope so, cause it was good

thanks and God bless…

 

[distracted]

so the good Lord drives me crazy sometimes (more than likely part of my own purification process).

Me too… exactly!

. I felt sure that i had followed what God wanted for me. I got the rejection e-mail just a few weeks ago. I know that I did what God called me to do- to apply… I wasn’t heartbroken, just confused and disappointed that God led me down a dead end that I won’t undrerstand until I’m in heaven.

Again… I have been going through (AM going through) this… I was being driven so crazy trying to discern God’s will that i figured the best i could do was just “give up” & let go… just listen to whatever He may put into my head rather than always asking, asking asking… It didn’t seem to work @ first… but i didn’t want to go back to the insanity so… well, i just rested in Him, spent time @ the Blessed Sacrament… & finally, a word came to me… & I am 99% sure it was from God because it involved doing this particular project that i had started for Him (something i thought would help get peole on the road to salvation…). I had not been sure that that particular work was what he wanted (so many other “things” to deal with… etc)… but whne i heard the word, it was confirmation…
And i needed confirmation very badly! :hypno: Going insane didn’t seem like a good thing… didn’t seem like the will of God (God is love).

He knows what’s best, but I sure wish He’d share his thoughts with me.

. Purification is a bitter-sweet humility.

too true… :hypno:

Again, it is so good to know that i am not alone in what i am going through… thanks & God bless.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

glenaitken

I’ve seen the topic of detachment coming up alot in the last few posts. I think that there is some confusion about what holy detachment is. Holy detachment is like being poor in spirit- It doesn’t mean that a person doesn’t use a computer. It doesn’t mean that a person doesn’t read or talk about God. It is true that none of these things soothes the soul in this kind of detachment, but that does not mean that there is no joy in hearing about another’s love for the beloved. This is a very bitter-sweet type of thing.

People who reach the level of prayer where they are in the Dark Night of Spirit, detach from anything other than God. This would include idle chat, which for the most part, these forums are.
Such souls find more comfort in solitude and will seek it, outside of their daily duties.

The soul seeks her beloved Christ- Jim, you are right. Have you ever been in love? then you know that when the beloved is absent, no amount of speach will suffice, but if someone would speak to you about your bride, it would not only bring you some small joy to think of her in your conversation, but the conversation would also be a source of pain for you because it would deepen your longing for your beloved.

The difference here is that being separated from my beloved and the soul that is longing for Christ are different. In the former, the two lovers are separated only for a set amount of time. Also, a person who would talk to me about, would only know the surface things, but you are right, it would give me some pain, but joy. However, to hear the person continually talk about my beloved would dry out and I would eventually ask the person, to be quiet. In the case of the soul who is in the Dark Night however, they are more often than not, more advanced in prayer than the speakers who preach about Christ. Hence, as St. John of The Cross, says in his poem, send me no more messengers. They’re not doing anything for me and are more of a burden.

This is more the experiance we are talking about here, not some miserable soul who is heartbroken into sloth or one who gives up, but God (even in His absence) becomes the soul’s strength and hope in love.

No, its not a person who is slothful, or gives up. In fact, because of their faith, they go on, even exhibiting heroic virtue, such as Mother Teresa did, who suffered greatly in the Dark Night of the Soul.

Just because someone has the ability to type does not mean that he is attached to the computer. detachment is more about the proper order of the loves of the soul than it is about not loving things. For example, king David did not love his wealth, but he saw his wealth as a means of serving God and therefore used it for His greater glory. This is detachment.

I agree except that the soul in the Dark Night of Spirit, is serving God, not self, through idle chat in a computer forum. They are either busying themselves at work, or prayer. They prefer solitude over socializing.

THis is Holy Poverty- Bieng poor in spirit. It is loving all things in thier proper place. material goods should not be loved any more than they can help others or bring about good and give glory to God- ie: feeding the poor, clothing the naked, etc. one should love others, but not more than God. God should be the first love, and all other loves should be ordered to trhe love of Him. I love my wife because I love God.

I agree but this isn’t what we’re talking about. Detachment from inordinate things, which are not conducive toward unification with Christ, are what the souls in the Dark Night achieve.

Jim

 

[glenaitken]

glenaitken

People who reach the level of prayer where they are in the Dark Night of Spirit, detach from anything other than God. This would include idle chat, which for the most part, these forums are.
Such souls find more comfort in solitude and will seek it, outside of their daily duties.

The difference here is that being separated from my beloved and the soul that is longing for Christ are different. In the former, the two lovers are separated only for a set amount of time. Also, a person who would talk to me about, would only know the surface things, but you are right, it would give me some pain, but joy. However, to hear the person continually talk about my beloved would dry out and I would eventually ask the person, to be quiet. In the case of the soul who is in the Dark Night however, they are more often than not, more advanced in prayer than the speakers who preach about Christ. Hence, as St. John of The Cross, says in his poem, send me no more messengers. They’re not doing anything for me and are more of a burden.

No, its not a person who is slothful, or gives up. In fact, because of their faith, they go on, even exhibiting heroic virtue, such as Mother Teresa did, who suffered greatly in the Dark Night of the Soul.

I agree except that the soul in the Dark Night of Spirit, is serving God, not self, through idle chat in a computer forum. They are either busying themselves at work, or prayer. They prefer solitude over socializing.

I agree but this isn’t what we’re talking about. Detachment from inordinate things, which are not conducive toward unification with Christ, are what the souls in the Dark Night achieve.

Jim

Jim, sorry it’s taken me a few days to get back to your comments. I think we disagree mainly on what we consider to be idle chat. I’m sorry, but i do not see these forums as infringing on detachment, or even resembling idle chat. after much thought, it also seems that there is no way to convince you to see it any other way. Holy Poverty, being poor in spirit, and detachment are all very interrelated, and so i don’t see your arguments as holding as much water as you would like them to. You seem to have the definitions without the application, which would make sense to me that you are essentially trying to tell everyone what the dark night of the soul is by using somebody else’s definition. in short- you are not speaking from experiance, but from somebody else’s experiance. I think that you are “overspiritualizing” the idea of unification- i mean here that you are neglecting the “imminitization” aspect of union with God and too focused on the “transcendance” aspect of union. there is a balance, or a mean, here that is a virtue. also, the degree of holyness and state of life to which a person is called by God helps to determine the shape that the night will take in a person’s life. Ie: David was a king, no matter how uified to God he was, he still had to wage wars and distribute justice and attend to matters of state- which may even include chatting with others who are not experiancing a dark night. st John, on the other hand, had much less temporal responsibility, and so the night was different for him since he could go days without speaking or leaving his house. Can you see my point? you are over mystifying your notions of union. Christ comes to us and dwells with us in our lives, roles, amnd responsibilities. we can’t leave and go to Him (until death, and even then not by our own power), all we can do is try our best to be with him and to do what He wills. Please think about what I’m saying and let me know if this makes more sense. THank you, Glen

 

[Schultzz]

It could be an easy mistake to confuse the “Dark Night of The Soul” with “Spiritual Dryness”, or “The Desert”, or “The Furnace”. Yet All of these could be part of the process of the “Dark Night of the Soul”. Try to find a person who has had these experiences and would be willing to serve as your Spiritual Director. Speak to your Pastor and ask for guidance. Don’t expect everyone to understand these terms but know that God has a plan and reason for you undergoing these trials. Pray for discernment and someone who will come into your life to help guide you. If there is no one then be patient and endure the best way you can, and know that “This too shall pass.” It may be difficult to understand at the time but these trials are really a blessing and will often produce catharsis and bring about change. The experience can also be somewhat frightening and disorienting. You may receive attacks from the dark side and you may wonder as weak as you feel how you will ever get through it. Yet when we are at our weakest, Christ in us is strong. Trust in the Blessed Mother, and in Jesus. Remember that gold is fired to bring about purity. If you have many trials then you must have much gold in you. Find someone whom you can trust to speak with - perhaps your confessor, or a retired priest who has time and experience with this. Ask people to pray for you.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

in short- you are not speaking from experiance, but from somebody else’s experiance.

True, I’m speaking from what St. John of the Cross teaches on it, as well as my OCDS spiritual assistants.

People who reach the spiritual level where Christ allows them into the Dark Night of the Soul, would only allow those souls who could survive it. Such souls don’t seek to feed the intellect or edification in their spirituality. Rather, they avoid idle chat altogether. Even as St. John of the Cross says, “bridle the tongue.” In this case, the keyboard, or however you want to put it.

He also says, speak only when necessary, that is, in order to do your job, or as to not be cold toward a person, who is seeking friendly chat, but only say what they need to hear.

Also, souls who have reached this level of spiritual perfection, avoid arguments, which this forum has plenty of, myself being of.

Anyway, we just have to agree to disagree and thats fine. I’ve known Carmelite Priest who disagree with each other, and they’re experts on the subject.

Jim

 

[glenaitken]

I’m ok disagreeing with you about this. I just think that there’s a few aspects concerning union with Christ that haven’t been taken into account by most explainations. St. John was right about everything he said, but I do not think that the dark night for a carmelite is going to look quite the same as a franciscan, dominican, or layperson. Same essentials, different expresions. Do you agree?

 

[InLight247]

…but I do not think that the dark night for a carmelite is going to **look quite the same **as a franciscan, dominican, or layperson. Same essentials, different expresions. Do you agree?

I am not sure I understand what you said. Could you elaborate?

 

[Joysong]

JimR-OCDS:

People who reach the level of prayer where they are in the Dark Night of Spirit, detach from anything other than God. This would include idle chat, which for the most part, these forums are. Such souls find more comfort in solitude and will seek it, outside of their daily duties.

I do agree with this, Jim, with the exception that one does not have to reach the Dark Night in order to be thwarted by idle chat.

Having finished the Diary of St. Faustina for lent, I finally am reading Fire Within which I ordered at the same time. On pg. 124, Fr. Dubay discusses idle talk, as being an obstruction to a contemplative spirit, and cited some of St. Teresa’s experiences with this.

I did remember reading in the Life that she spoke of losing her spirituality, where she had been receiving advanced gifts of the spirit, and attributed it to the frequency of her visits to the parlor. Who would think that talking about God would have caused this? (I wish they had a smilie here for a hand raised!) Yes, I understand that useless conversations, even spiritual ones, can be deadly to spiritual advancement, if they are not undertaken in the right spirit, and in accord with God’s guidance. My absence from the forum during lent was a wonderful time of many blessings, and I see how much harm certain aspects of this website previously caused me spiritually. It is hard to discover while we are in the thick of it, until a good absence reveals the harm.

On pg. 125 we read:

St. Teresa is concrete in how we should handle the problem. If in a chat “no effort is being made to make the conversation a fruitful one, they should bring it to a quick conclusion, as was said. It is very important that those who visit us leave with some benefit, and not after having wasted time, and that we benefit too.”

Speaking of friends and relatives who visit (or, we might add today, telephone), Teresa remarks that “if these persons are not the kind who find their satisfaction in speaking about the things of God, they should be seen seldom, and the visit kept short.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

glenaitken

St. John was right about everything he said, but I do not think that the dark night for a carmelite is going to look quite the same as a franciscan, dominican, or layperson. Same essentials, different expresions. Do you agree?

No, sorry, I don’t agree.

The Dark Night as described by St. John of the Cross, is used across the board by the various religious orders of the Church. However, keep in mind, St. John didn’t make this up on his own, but rather, used Sacred Scripture to explain the process of spiritual marriage, which goes back to the Song Of Songs in the Old Testament.

The difference is that in St. John’s time, contemplative prayer had been suppressed for some time. St. Teresa and St John, brought back what was always part of the Church, but kept hidden by those who feared it.

I’ve read Franciscan writings, as well as others, and they all quote St. John and St. Teresa, in their writings and are consistent in their understanding and expression.

Jim

 

[glenaitken]

Quote:
…but I do not think that the dark night for a carmelite is going to look quite the same as a franciscan, dominican, or layperson. Same essentials, different expresions. Do you agree?

I am not sure I understand what you said. Could you elaborate?
When I say “look the same” i simply mean that the duties and obligations and charism and vocation all will be different, but the experiance of forsaken-ness, abandonment, darkness, and the like are similar. Does this make more sense?

St. Teresa is concrete in how we should handle the problem. If in a chat “no effort is being made to make the conversation a fruitful one, they should bring it to a quick conclusion, as was said. It is very important that those who visit us leave with some benefit, and not after having wasted time, and that we benefit too.”

Speaking of friends and relatives who visit (or, we might add today, telephone), Teresa remarks that “if these persons are not the kind who find their satisfaction in speaking about the things of God, they should be seen seldom, and the visit kept short.”

I like this quote! It’s right on the mark. (I do not think that this thread has been the fruitless chat she speaks of).

 

[InLight247]

…one does not have to reach the Dark Night in order to be thwarted by idle chat.

Having finished the Diary of St. Faustina for lent, I finally am reading Fire Within which I ordered at the same time. On pg. 124, Fr. Dubay discusses idle talk, as being an obstruction to a contemplative spirit, and cited some of St. Teresa’s experiences with this.

How true that is, and it is good to be reminded again. Not only idle talk is detrimental to a contemplative spirit, it can easily trap one into sin. Even it maybe just a venial sin, we ought to avoid any occasion near sin. There is gold in silence.

 

[Joysong]

I hesitated to add this, InLight, but after reading your words about trapping us into sin, it might be good to share another part of page 124 that caught my eye.

The saint considers distress over the sins and failings of others in everyday life as a demonic temptation. The devil puts it into people’s heads that their meddling really arises from a desire that God be not offended and be better served. A pervasive concern disturbs peace. All the while, meddlers consider that they are being virtuous in their preoccupations. Teresa’s conclusion is that “the safe path for the soul that practices prayer will be not to bother about anything or anyone and to pay attention to itself and to pleasing God.”

Oh how many times I thought it was my duty to defend God’s truth when someone on the forum was obstinately persisting in their role as papal envoy, yet taught error. Oh God help me!

 

[BarbaraTherese]

The soul is brought to what seems a complete impasse …St. John:
[CHAPTER XVI](Dark Night of the Soul XVI-2#CHAPTER XVI-2)
ourladyswarriors.org/saints/darknite.htm
…you may need to scroll down to Chapter XVI…

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I wrote “seems” in my previous post because there is a way the soul can and does travel, and that is the road of fortitude and Faith.

1. There is likewise another reason, which is no less effectual than the last, by which we may understand how the soul journeys securely in darkness; it is derived from the fortitude by which the soul is at once inspired in these obscure and afflictive dark waters of God. For after all, though the waters be dark, they are none the less waters, and therefore they cannot but refresh and fortify the soul in that which is most needful for it, although in darkness and with affliction. For the soul immediately perceives in itself a genuine determination and an effectual desire to do naught which it understands to be an offence to God, and to omit to do naught that seems to be for His service.