What exactly is dark night of the soul?

[Joysong]

Excellent point, Barb! A wonderful test to which we can readily discern our fidelity and spiritual strength.

For the soul immediately perceives in itself a genuine determination and an effectual desire to do naught which it understands to be an offense to God, and to omit to do naught that seems to be for His service.

The underlined wording is also the requirement for obtaining a plenary indulgence; i.e., having no attachment to sin, even venial sin. Ah, the pure of heart, brought there most assuredly by these touches of God’s purifying grace.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

… …Deo Gratius!..

To insight The Dark Night and what its content is - what it actually is, Chapter XVI leaves little doubt I think…the soul is afflicted and in darkness, it is suffering, and can do so in very many ways…but the firm purpose and desire to avoid sin and do all that Faith tells one is pleasing to God is very firm indeed despite opposing factors perhaps…in fact St. John uses the term “effectual desire” (it is effected) in connection with this firm purpose and desire - fortitude (strength of soul)…

 

[BarbaraTherese]

… …Deo Gratius!..

To insight The Dark Night and what its content is - what it actually is, Chapter XVI leaves little doubt I think…the soul is afflicted and in darkness, it is suffering, and can do so in very many ways…but the firm purpose and desire to avoid sin and do all that Faith tells one is pleasing to God is very firm indeed despite opposing factors perhaps…in fact St. John uses the term “effectual desire” in connection with this firm purpose and desire - fortitude (strength of soul)…

 

[Joysong]

Hi Barb,

I was reflecting tonight after reading your post about another test that we can apply. It will point to understanding, perhaps not whether we are in the dark night, per se, but to know that we are in some kind of intense darkness that pervades our spirits and it is the purifying gift of God’s grace.

It just occurred to me since I spoke about it briefly in another thread. When God has removed our desires for extraneous things and dried them up like old prunes so that nothing appeals to us in order to fix our attention on it, distractions then become rampant and very painful. The intellect, meaning the understanding of the mind, has arrived at no longer desiring any further truths in order to know and love God. So, when the soul comes to prayer, the will is praying, but the understanding wanders all over the place and is unable to recollect itself in God, who is now depriving the soul of that loving attention it was so accustomed to.

The key, I think, is that the understanding has no desire to center on anything noteworthy, for if it had an attachment, its mind would disrupt its prayer and dwell on that attachment repeatedly. But the wildest thoughts come from out of nowhere and seem to have no place to nestle, and sometimes I laugh at what the mind picks up. Nevertheless, it is painful to want to be with God and find ourselves hindered and in darkness.

This brings true humility to know that of ourselves, we can absolutely do NOTHING, not even pray well.

Thought this might help another who may be suffering and wondering what is going on.

 

[Danny_OC]

I had not known about this before. Interesting. But it does bring a question to mind: how can one truly love God *without *going through a dark night of the soul? Would most of us not be able to handle such a trial? If so, does that mean we actually love God’s gifts, and not who He is? Can one be saved without this true love of God?

 

[Joysong]

I think the scripture from John 14:21 is very good to reflect upon:

“Whoever has my commandments and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

How can we truly love God, you ask? If we are doing our best to keep His commandments. Long before God sends a trial of the dark night, He sends much love and reveals Himself in spirit to the person, drawing him/her to Himself. When it is stronger, even though not yet perfected in love, only then will He proceed to admit the person to deeper purifying darkness.

St. John of the Cross worded it, “God puts honey on His breast to draw the person from the allurements of the world.” So rest in the peace of knowing you will not be subject to this until God knows you are ready and grounded in fidelity and love.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Barb,

I was reflecting tonight after reading your post about another test that we can apply. It will point to understanding, perhaps not whether we are in the dark night, per se, but to know that we are in some kind of intense darkness that pervades our spirits and it is the purifying gift of God’s grace.

It just occurred to me since I spoke about it briefly in another thread. When God has removed our desires for extraneous things and dried them up like old prunes so that nothing appeals to us in order to fix our attention on it, distractions then become rampant and very painful. The intellect, meaning the understanding of the mind, has arrived at no longer desiring any further truths in order to know and love God. So, when the soul comes to prayer, the will is praying, but the understanding wanders all over the place and is unable to recollect itself in God, who is now depriving the soul of that loving attention it was so accustomed to.

The key, I think, is that the understanding has no desire to center on anything noteworthy, for if it had an attachment, its mind would disrupt its prayer and dwell on that attachment repeatedly. But the wildest thoughts come from out of nowhere and seem to have no place to nestle, and sometimes I laugh at what the mind picks up. Nevertheless, it is painful to want to be with God and find ourselves hindered and in darkness.

This brings true humility to know that of ourselves, we can absolutely do NOTHING, not even pray well.

Thought this might help another who may be suffering and wondering what is going on.

… …Deo Gratius!..Undoubtedly The Dark Night embraces the whole of life and not just the time spent in prayer. In quoting Chapter XVI of St. John, I was really wondering if the OP had an answer to the question posed in the thread title and whether what The Dark Night may actually be was clear.

Blessings this Easter…Barb

 

[Danny_OC]

I think the scripture from John 14:21 is very good to reflect upon:

“Whoever has my commandments and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

How can we truly love God, you ask? If we are doing our best to keep His commandments. Long before God sends a trial of the dark night, He sends much love and reveals Himself in spirit to the person, drawing him/her to Himself. When it is stronger, even though not yet perfected in love, only then will He proceed to admit the person to deeper purifying darkness.

St. John of the Cross worded it, “God puts honey on His breast to draw the person from the allurements of the world.” So rest in the peace of knowing you will not be subject to this until God knows you are ready and grounded in fidelity and love.

Can we be said to be doing our absolute best to keep His commandments if we have not reached a level where he chooses a dark night of the soul for us? I suppose so… it’s just that knowing that such a trial exists makes it somewhat disconcerting when you have thought you were progressing spiritually for some time but have not gone through it. On one hand I suppose the progress counts for something, and the absence of such a trial means there still is something to progress towards; on the other hand, I fear that I may be wrongly consoling myself with the notion that I am “making progress” when I should be more concerned with what I have actually achieved.

 

[fhansen]

Can we be said to be doing our absolute best to keep His commandments if we have not reached a level where he chooses a dark night of the soul for us? I suppose so… it’s just that knowing that such a trial exists makes it somewhat disconcerting when you have thought you were progressing spiritually for some time but have not gone through it. On one hand I suppose the progress counts for something, and the absence of such a trial means there still is something to progress towards; on the other hand, I fear that I may be wrongly consoling myself with the notion that I am “making progress” when I should be more concerned with what I have actually achieved.

God is the potter. While molding us He may draw us into a “Dark Night of the Soul” or He may use entirely different means. In any case, purification is a part of the process. As long as we continue to love and seek Him-and/or return to Him when we fail to do so, as long as we continue striving in prayer and faithfulness, we can have an assurance that He’ll reward us. Even the mystics wondered at times whether or not they were “making progress” and worried that they may not be doing enough but it’s usually in hindsight that we see the hand of God and the growth and change He has wrought in us. Sometimes we just need to heed the psalm that says, “Be still and know that I am God.”

 

[glenaitken]

Fhansen is right danny,
let God take His time with you in the molding process, otherwise you might become a cracked pot. I dont think you should worry so much about what’s ahead, just do your best in the present to love God as He has called you to do. The rest takes care of itself. any time we love God, no matter how poorly it may be, He accepts it and elevates it through grace to be a salvific act, and He mingles it with the blood from his wounds to make it perfect for God. Every act of love of God is a perfect act, so long as it is done with the right intentions- this is not because we love perfectly (lets face it, some souls do it better than others, ie: The Blessed Virgin loves God more perfectly as He deserves in a way that any of us could never dream of achieving), but because Christ perfectly loves us and assists us through grace, He makes the act perfect through his Cross so that it is acceptable to the Father. try to unite your life to the cross through prayer, and be patient with yourself.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Our goal should be to ask Jesus to increase the level of love in us.
As we love God and neighbor as Jesus commanded, the graces we gain will get us through anything that we have to go through.

Mother Teresa, despite being in a deep Dark Night of the Soul, never stopped loving the poor she was serving, right to the end.

As love for God increases, so will love for neighbor, and vise versa. St. John of the Cross says, the lover always takes on the characteristics of the beloved. In other words, we will love as Christ loves. In other words, its all centered around love.

The author of the Cloud of Unknowing put it best for me.

“God can not be grasped, except through love.”

God Bless
Jim

 

[InLight247]

Originally by Joysong
On pg. 124, Fr. Dubay discusses idle talk, as being an bstruction to a contemplative spirit, and cited some of St. Teresa’s experiences with this.

I did remember reading in the Life that she spoke of losing her spirituality, where she had been receiving advanced gifts of the spirit, and attributed it to the frequency of her visits to the parlor. Who would think that talking about God would have caused this? (I wish they had a smilie here for a hand raised!) Yes, I understand that useless conversations, even spiritual ones, can be deadly to spiritual advancement, if they are not undertaken in the right spirit, and in accord with God’s guidance…
On pg. 125 we read:
St. Teresa is concrete in how we should handle the problem. If in a chat “no effort is being made to make the conversation a fruitful one, they should bring it to a quick conclusion, as was said. It is very important that those who visit us leave with some benefit, and not after having wasted time, and that we benefit too.”

Speaking of friends and relatives who visit (or, we might add today, telephone), Teresa remarks that “if these persons are not the kind who find their satisfaction in speaking about the things of God, they should be seen seldom, and the visit kept short.”

Interesting enough that when I flipped to the pages you referred to in my “Fire Within” book, I saw the same verses were highlighted.Indeed idle talk and meddling with others’ business (either mentally or verbally) are detrimental. When we idly chat with meaningless stuff, not only it is a waste of time, but it is easy to hear or say something we are not supposed to. Even we may be talking about things related to faith, the idle conversation still could trap us into sin.

Sometimes when we chat with a friend, especially a friend we are so familiar with, we could be less alert and before we knew it, we repeated something we heard that originally we would not say. I had such an experience lately that brought me great pain afterwards and had to go to confession. I did not realize it until much later when I was praying in the Chapel, the Holy Spirit showed me how unnecessary of the words I retold.

We really have to be careful. This is not to say that we should be inhuman. We do need to talk to friends about things in our heart, to let them out, to share each other’s burden. But we always have to be careful of what we say, especially when it involves any other third party. Virtues need to be mindfully worked on all the time. But the bottom line is to have the will and determination to work on them. I think the Lord always meets us at where we are. And He constantly challenges us to higher and higher ground if we let Him.

 

[fhansen]

Our goal should be to ask Jesus to increase the level of love in us.
As we love God and neighbor as Jesus commanded, the graces we gain will get us through anything that we have to go through.

Mother Teresa, despite being in a deep Dark Night of the Soul, never stopped loving the poor she was serving, right to the end.

As love for God increases, so will love for neighbor, and vise versa. St. John of the Cross says, the lover always takes on the characteristics of the beloved. In other words, we will love as Christ loves. In other words, its all centered around love.

The author of the Cloud of Unknowing put it best for me.

“God can not be grasped, except through love.”

God Bless
Jim

I think that to pray for more love is the best advice. We certainly can’t go wrong with a petition like that. But I’ve been thinking about your comment about “idle chat” and I’m not so sure that that accurately portrays what takes place on these forums-in every case at least. I remember Saint Teresa of Avila often saying that she didn’t like to waste time with people who didn’t like to talk about “the things of God”-that it was actually painful in some way to be around those whose interests lie elsewhere. And I can identify with that thought-it should be a pretty basic one for Christians- and I believe that many others who “chat” on these forums can as well. Particularly in the “Spirituality” forum I feel that perhaps a gentler tone can be sensed. Some forums seem to draw a more argumentative lot and while healthy debate can be great, I think there is too much unhealthy stuff going on at times. But in any case, I think that on this particular thread the chat hasn’t been so idle but rather informative, thanks to yourself and others, and in one way or the other it has concerned or is centered around our favorite Subject. Just some maybe-soon-to-be mystics sitting around talking about the “things of God”. Or maybe not.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

fhansen

keep in mind that we’re talking about a person who is in the Dark Night of Spirit, which few people ever reach.

Such souls who reach this stage of spiritual development, find even chat about things of God, as idle and boring. For one, they are usually beyond the path of spiritual development where chat with those who are less spiritually mature, is burdensome. Of course they will talk with people who approach to chat, out of love for them, but they don’t seek out people to chat with. To get to this forum, you have to seek it.

Again, I refer back to St. John of the Cross, in his Spiritual Canticle, " Do not send me any more messengers;
they cannot tell me what I must hear." Souls in the Dark Night of Spirit, have already heard all they need to hear, they don’t want more.

The soul who is in the Dark Night of Spirit, having been wounded by what St John calls, “love’s urgent longing,” long for nothing other than Christ himself. No amount of reading of spiritual books, chat, or good sermons, can cool their burning desire for union with Christ. They are in pain, the pain of holy love that is.

Jim

 

[fhansen]

The soul who is in the Dark Night of Spirit, having been wounded by what St John calls, “love’s urgent longing,” long for nothing other than Christ himself. No amount of reading of spiritual books, chat, or good sermons, can cool their burning desire for union with Christ. They are in pain, the pain of holy love that is.
Jim

I spent the last few days passing through the dark night of the soul so as you can imagine I didn’t feel much like chatting. Whew, it was great but I’m glad it’s over! Alright then.
Jim, you seem pretty knowledgeable about this stuff. Apparently people experience various gifts from God including rapture, ecstasies, locutions, visions, etc. before and after but not so much during the DNoS. Would that be correct? I think Mother Teresa actually had a profound experience early in life and nothing afterwards. I don’t know if those later years were characterized by a deep yearning for Christ, as per St. John of the Cross, or not. In any case, my main concern is this: while personal revelations and experiences may have a variety of purposes including moving one towards a particular calling, in my experience it seems that they can also serve as a “carrot on a stick”, in a sense, which attracts us more deeply to God in general but may never be repeated again during this life. Is that fairly common according to your understanding?

 

[Joysong]

fhansen:

Apparently people experience various gifts from God including rapture, ecstasies, locutions, visions, etc. before and after but not so much during the DNoS. Would that be correct? I think Mother Teresa actually had a profound experience early in life and nothing afterwards.

It depends upon how God is dealing with each particular soul. In “Come be my Light,” the biographer notes that Mother Teresa kept her spiritual life very hidden and did not disclose what took place in her spirit, of set purpose. All we know is that she suffered many, many years in darkness, but I find it difficult to believe there were not a few very special moments of light in the interim.

Having just finished St. Faustina’s Diary, I learned that she was given extraordinary graces alternating with times of extreme pain and darkness. As was also St. Teresa of Avila. In the 6th mansion (Interior Castle) where she suffered from the spiritual pains of the ‘dark night,’ she was also given many of these extraordinary gifts. It is not an ‘all or nothing’ process where there are no moments of blessedness, from what I understand. However, the night will last a good number of years and will be intermittent according to the way God sees is best for the soul.

Carole

 

[distracted]

. But in any case, I think that on this particular thread the chat hasn’t been so idle but rather informative, thanks to yourself and others,

Right… this forum is a much needed, refreshing break from some of the others. I guess people (some people) feel that since they are anonymous here, they can say whatever they want… and they want (apparentlY) to say some very un-charitable stuff… I guess they have a psychological “need” to get their repressed anger out and feel this is a good place for it…

anyway, I feel i have learned more here than anywhere else… and the weird thing is, i almost skipped over it…
**
I have a Question:**

Is it wrong (sinful) to spend 95% of your time with God in prayer (rosary, etc.) or do you think a person should be out in the world more, doing charity work of one kind or another?? At this time i do both but sometimes feel that both are suffering and i am not really accomplishing much… (to put it as briefly as possible)…

 

[distracted]

Every act of love of God is a perfect act, so long as it is done with the right intentions- .

I asked a question of another Poster (FHansen, i think, was the handle). Now i would like to ask you the same question:

Is it Ok to spend, say, 95% of your time praying and being with God (meditation) as opposed to being out in the world doing various charity work? I am doing both @ this time but feel that both are also suffering… so that i feel… overwhelmed, “fragmented”… etc… and i am not getting any younger… would like to do something 'productive" for God, for the salvation of souls… What are your thoughts? Thanks…

 

[fhansen]

Right… this forum is a much needed, refreshing break from some of the others. I guess people (some people) feel that since they are anonymous here, they can say whatever they want… and they want (apparentlY) to say some very un-charitable stuff… I guess they have a psychological “need” to get their repressed anger out and feel this is a good place for it…

anyway, I feel i have learned more here than anywhere else… and the weird thing is, i almost skipped over it…
**
I have a Question:**

Is it wrong (sinful) to spend 95% of your time with God in prayer (rosary, etc.) or do you think a person should be out in the world more, doing charity work of one kind or another?? At this time i do both but sometimes feel that both are suffering and i am not really accomplishing much… (to put it as briefly as possible)…

I don’t know if anyone can answer that question for another person other than in general terms. The bible, and our faith, tell us that we’re not all called to do the same things and that some are given one gift while others are given another. I feel that I’ve been given a strong measure of faith, which God reinforced greatly during a particularly blessed experience years ago, and I enjoy sharing that excitement with others so I help lead RCIA and participate in other such activities. The more we’ve been given the more we’re expected to give but I think most of us always wonder if we’re doing enough or compare ourselves to various heroines and heroes of our faith and feel like we come up short. Sometimes they felt that way, too, BTW. But prayer is important and charity work is important and I think if we just keep plugging away with the desire to be ever more faithful then in hindsight we can usually see the growth even if we think it should be greater. The problem with “arriving” is that then we have nowhere else to go. BTW, for me the thought that “time is running out” has been a good motivator.

 

[Teelynn]

OK, I have I guess a lot of questions. I have seen from some posters that very few people, and not even all saints go through “dark night of the soul” but what is more common is “dark night of the senses”. What exactly is “dark night of the senses”? Have really never hear of it, if you’ll all excuse my ignorance on the subject. And if “dark night of the soul” lasts many years, is that a constant non stop thing? Can it seem to be intermittently say for instance a few days or weeks at a time or is it a constant thing or does that even vary?

Bless you all,
Tee