What exactly is dark night of the soul?

[glenaitken]

Yes, I did mean St. Teresa of Avila. We also read St. Therese of Lisieux, Elizabeth of the Trinity, and Edith Stein.

I agree that St. Teresa was difficult, at first, but I was very blessed by God to be able to understand much of her doctrine. When you take all of the books and go topic by topic putting her words together, it is much clearer. Not that we can learn much by poring over texts, unless the Lord gives us experience of some of these difficult spiritual graces.

We had a cloistered nun in carmel give spiritual conferences for many years until the prioress called her back into the cloister. She was instrumental in our forming an official chapter. There were benedictine monks across the street who also shared their spirituality during some of our meetings. These were precious gifts while they lasted.

But I’m always ready to learn, as I’m sure you are too.

YOu have been truly blessed indeed! I’m in a diocese in south florida…

 

[glenaitken]

I either totally get this or I don’t have a clue. I’ll have to see how it pans out. I can’t even decide if I know what you all are talking about. There is just a void when I think about the dark night. All that comes to mind is when a priest told me it is like being inside during a snowstorm, then quickly going outside and being blinded by the brightness, that everything appears black, but you are actually surrounded by light. Tim

Tim, your priest was right. Try reading through the posts again, it may help

 

[fhansen]

Joysong or Glenn or anyone:
I haven’t read enough of the saints to know the difference but why is Saint Teresa so hard to read? I just started reading her about 2 months ago and have gone thru 4-5 books. My sister had Dubays’ book and I’ve read thru parts of it. I read her autobiography. I haven’t read Interior Castle so maybe that’s where she gets tough. Anyway, I love this woman. She’s so normal in many ways but explains these extraordinary experiences quite clearly-or as well as can be done. I think I’m hooked on the saints! What others do you recommend besides John of the Cross? I’ve read some of the other names in the posts but are certain ones better than others to start with?

 

[Joysong]

Most people find that Way of Perfection is a good beginning book, by Teresa of Avila.

As for being difficult, I thought that her use of the word “state” caused a lot of confusion for me. It seems she meant “stage” of development in some cases and “states” of actual prayer, in others. It takes a while to sort it all out. But her style is simpler and more attracting than that of St. John of the Cross, whom many think is a severe director and grow discouraged.

Carole

 

[InLight247]

Joysong or Glenn or anyone:
I haven’t read enough of the saints to know the difference but why is Saint Teresa so hard to read? I just started reading her about 2 months ago and have gone thru 4-5 books. My sister had Dubays’ book and I’ve read thru parts of it. I read her autobiography. I haven’t read Interior Castle so maybe that’s where she gets tough. Anyway, I love this woman. She’s so normal in many ways but explains these extraordinary experiences quite clearly-or as well as can be done. I think I’m hooked on the saints! What others do you recommend besides John of the Cross? I’ve read some of the other names in the posts but are certain ones better than others to start with?

There are many good books to read. Choosing a book that fits one’s current spirituality and meets current need is important.

Here is an online link you may scan it through:
catholicfirst.com/index.cfm

However, I will recommend Brother Lawrence’ s “The Practice of the Presence of God”, St. Francis de Sales’ “Introduction to the Devout Life” and St. Faustina’s Diary before St. Teresa ‘s “Interior Castle” or any of St. John of the Cross, or even “The Fire Within”.
Lot of times it is not the author or the book is hard, it is the state of one’s journey is not there yet.

"The Practice of the Presence of God” is one of my favorite. I recommended it to my Small Church group. Two ladies bought it after hearing my mentioning it so many times. Both said it was very hard to read, and didn’t feel interested. I also recommended “The Fire Within” to a very devout lady in our parish, she bought it but then felt dreadful to read it. It simply means those books are not for them for the time being.

I think the most important thing is to start from our prayer life, spend good quality time each day with the Lord, read the Bible, the Word of God, before reading any spiritual book. When we have a deeper relationship with Jesus, lot of spiritual books by the Saints will naturally make good sense. It is always a joy to read something and immediately be able to identify with them.

 

[Joysong]

TOP:

I either totally get this or I don’t have a clue. I’ll have to see how it pans out. I can’t even decide if I know what you all are talking about. There is just a void when I think about the dark night.

There is no need to understand it, TOP, if God has not brought you there spiritually. Many of us won’t understand it, and volumes have been written to try and explain. But if you’re not ready for it, this will be Greek to you.

May I suggest that you keep your heart in simple faith and fidelity, and set this aside? I often think of Psalm 130 at times like this:

LORD, my heart is not proud; nor are my eyes haughty. I do not busy myself with great matters, with things too sublime for me.

Rather, I have stilled my soul, hushed it like a weaned child. Like a weaned child on its mother’s lap, so is my soul within me.

Israel, hope in the LORD, now and forever

 

[glenaitken]

Joysong or Glenn or anyone:
I haven’t read enough of the saints to know the difference but why is Saint Teresa so hard to read? I just started reading her about 2 months ago and have gone thru 4-5 books. My sister had Dubays’ book and I’ve read thru parts of it. I read her autobiography. I haven’t read Interior Castle so maybe that’s where she gets tough. Anyway, I love this woman. She’s so normal in many ways but explains these extraordinary experiences quite clearly-or as well as can be done. I think I’m hooked on the saints! What others do you recommend besides John of the Cross? I’ve read some of the other names in the posts but are certain ones better than others to start with?

It all depends on your spirituality. personally, I like to read anything written by the saints and see what I identify with. For example, Introduction to the devoute life by St. Francis Desales is great, but it is not my kind of spirituality. The Little Flowers of St. Francis is one of my favorite reads, but again, I do not have a Franciscan charism in my spirituality. I love to read St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, but it really only helps for understanding and not for faith. Each saint will touch on some aspect of our collective spirituality as Catholics, and so we may get something out of every book written by any saint. My favorites to recommend to others are:
The Imitation of Christ- Thomas Akempis
The Story of a Soul- St. Therese
The Secret of the Rosary & True Devotion to Mary- St. Louis DeMontfort
My Daily Bread- (Its a daily Devotional)
The Confessions- St. Augustine
any of the Encyclicals by John Paul 2
Scott Hahn usualy has good stuff (His books are like crash courses)

• THere are lots of others! I usually don’t advise people to reaqd the mystics unless they have been well catechized and have been living a life of prayer and service for at least 8 years because some of thier writings sound very odd to people who don’t have a background. It is best to read them with someone who has knowledge of them if you do.
• St. theresa- I have only read the Interior Castle, which (I believe) is supposed to be an allagory for the progress of the soul moving towards perfect love of God. The imagry throws me off because I am not sure if I am interpreting it correctly since there are years between us and a gender difference as well (women and men have slight differences in spirituality). Does this make sense?

 

[fhansen]

It all depends on your spirituality. personally, I like to read anything written by the saints and see what I identify with. For example, Introduction to the devoute life by St. Francis Desales is great, but it is not my kind of spirituality. The Little Flowers of St. Francis is one of my favorite reads, but again, I do not have a Franciscan charism in my spirituality. I love to read St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, but it really only helps for understanding and not for faith. Each saint will touch on some aspect of our collective spirituality as Catholics, and so we may get something out of every book written by any saint. My favorites to recommend to others are:
The Imitation of Christ- Thomas Akempis
The Story of a Soul- St. Therese
The Secret of the Rosary & True Devotion to Mary- St. Louis DeMontfort
My Daily Bread- (Its a daily Devotional)
The Confessions- St. Augustine
any of the Encyclicals by John Paul 2
Scott Hahn usualy has good stuff (His books are like crash courses)

• THere are lots of others! I usually don’t advise people to reaqd the mystics unless they have been well catechized and have been living a life of prayer and service for at least 8 years because some of thier writings sound very odd to people who don’t have a background. It is best to read them with someone who has knowledge of them if you do.
• St. theresa- I have only read the Interior Castle, which (I believe) is supposed to be an allagory for the progress of the soul moving towards perfect love of God. The imagry throws me off because I am not sure if I am interpreting it correctly since there are years between us and a gender difference as well (women and men have slight differences in spirituality). Does this make sense?

Yes, I think so, although I didn’t know Scott Hahn was a saint- already.

 

[glenaitken]

Yes, I think so, although I didn’t know Scott Hahn was a saint- already.

No, I just threw him in with the others All good stuff.

 

[fhansen]

No, I just threw him in with the others All good stuff.

Thanks, glenaitken, I appreciate the good stuff you’ve contributed in that post and others.

 

[LayApostle]

Speaking from experience the following books help shed light

The Three Conversions in the Spiritual Life. In this compact book; the famous Thomist; Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange; sets forth the classic Catholic traditions on the spiritual life as the full flowering of Sanctifying Grace in the soul. He explains the three stages of the spiritual life-the Purgative Way; the Illuminative Way; and the Unitive Way-showing the transitions or conversions from one period to another. How can one become a saint without knowing the way – the pitfalls; common mistakes; and experience of Saints who have gone before? Impr. 112 pgs; PB. Available from TAN books. Then you can go on other works. His larger work is The Three Ages of the Interior Life which is a complete discourse on Catholic spirituality. Covers works John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila as well as theologians interpretations of the formers works.

Another good book is the GROWTH IN HOLINESS by Fr. William Faber. To under SIN better get DIVINE INTIMACY Meditations on the Interior Life for Every Day of the Liturgical Year
By: Fr. Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalen O.C.D. - It also instructs you on how to conduct yourself during aridity. The book is based the works of St. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila. Very readable.

Spend time with the Lord in the Blessed Sacraments while you meditate on what is written in these books. Believe me the Holy Spirit will enlighten you.

Taking the effort to read these books will give you greater insight than if you just discuss about it as we often get off-track in our discussions and digress on to other matters. If you really want to overcome these thoughts… you must stay focused and learn from the saints.

 

[tessi]

There is just a void when I think about the dark night. All that comes to mind is when a priest told me it is like being inside during a snowstorm, then quickly going outside and being blinded by the brightness, that everything appears black, but you are actually surrounded by light. Tim

It’s imposible to describe unless you go through it. It’s like a whip of fire from inside, like being in hell, like being surrounded by nothing except God and he hates you. You can not see beyond that, you are in the judgement, then everything is gone and you are quiet and peaceful and scared of the next time.

 

[glenaitken]

Thanks, glenaitken, I appreciate the good stuff you’ve contributed in that post and others.

thanks! it’s nice to know I cab be helpful

 

[Joysong]

I believe this short excerpt from St. John of the Cross is one of the best descriptions I have found of the experience of ‘dark night.’

1. … And this is a second way of suffering: with desire and anxiety of love in the innermost parts of the spirit, which are the spiritual feelings. Nonetheless, in the midst of these dark and loving afflictions, the soul feels a certain companionship and an interior strength; these so fortify and accompany it that when this weight of anxious darkness passes, the soul often feels alone, empty, and weak. The reason is that since the strength and efficacy of the dark fire of love that assails it is communicated and impressed on it passively, the darkness, strength, and warmth of love cease when the assault terminates.

catholictreasury.info/books/dark_night/dn26.php

St. Teresa of Avila uses different wording, but both are in agreement. She calls it a delectable distress that wounds, yet it gives the spirit much satisfaction.

We also understand from her writing that there are those times when the thought of God seems to the person that they hardly know Him, nor can they lift their heart in meaningful prayer. I suppose this is what some people believe is the essence of the darkness, but that is only one accompaniment that is not continual. If one did not additionally experience that which St. John describes above, I would believe they are not experiencing the true dark night at all, but perhaps an aspect of the earlier night of sense.

Essentially, the second night is a passive and arid gift of contemplation from God similar to the sweet infused kind one receives earlier in prayer. God’s presence is felt in both forms of contemplation, whereas St. Teresa said she prized the arid purifying gift more than any other she had received. In the 6th mansion, she related that this was the stage she found herself in most often, and was the purification before her transforming union with God in the 7th.

While the soul is in that state of arid contemplation, it becomes like the lone sparrow, understanding truly the words of scripture, that it has nowhere to lay its head or find rest, neither in heaven nor on earth.

 

[glenaitken]

She calls it a delectable distress that wounds, yet it gives the spirit much satisfaction.

We also understand from her writing that there are those times when the thought of God seems to the person that they hardly know Him, nor can they lift their heart in meaningful prayer. I suppose this is what some people believe is the essence of the darkness, but that is only one accompaniment that is not continual. If one did not additionally experience that which St. John describes above, I would believe they are not experiencing the true dark night at all, but perhaps an aspect of the earlier night of sense.

Essentially, the second night is a passive and arid gift of contemplation from God similar to the sweet infused kind one receives earlier in prayer. God’s presence is felt in both forms of contemplation, whereas St. Teresa said she prized the arid purifying gift more than any other she had received. In the 6th mansion, she related that this was the stage she found herself in most often, and was the purification before her transforming union with God in the 7th.

While the soul is in that state of arid contemplation, it becomes like the lone sparrow, understanding truly the words of scripture, that it has nowhere to lay its head or find rest, neither in heaven nor on earth.

I have never really seen this from St. Theresa (I read the Castle years ago,and so I don’t remember much), but I think you are right in your comments. There is a strangeness that occurs where you feel all alone and meaningless, like you know nothing of God and no prayer is right; but at the same time you are aware of His presence because you can feel His absence. So, in a strange way, you know that you are not alone because you feel alone. I don’t think that the human mind can grasp fully what is going on in the soul here- such paradoxes:banghead:
The sparrow thing comes from the feeling of emptiness (all is vanity) that accompanies it all. St.Theresa is right when she says that the arid experiance is the best- not because its “oh-so-much-fun” but because it is a place that you can look back on and see growth and virtue. A soul here must be patient above all else because it cannot do anything on its own, but has to wait on God for everything.
She (the soul) cannot pray without Him (though she will try), she cannot speak well without Him, she cannot develope a virtue unless He allows her to, she is completely dependant on God for all things and knows it. She anxiously awaits the Lord’s approval, and will forge headlong into her task once it is given in a desire to please her beloved and be with Him. When He is silent, she waits, when He speaks, She listens. When He moves, she follows. When He corrects, she obeys. In this way she learns to act like Christ and to see HIm in all things- this will take years of practice, however.**

 

[Joysong]

Hi Glen,

You will find her teaching here, and this is a small part of it:

It is conscious of having been most delectably wounded, but cannot say how or by whom; but it is certain that this is a precious experience and it would be glad if it were never to be healed of that wound. It complains to its Spouse with words of love, and even cries aloud, being unable to help itself, for it realizes that He is present but will not manifest Himself in such a way as to allow it to enjoy Him, and this is a great grief, though a sweet and delectable one; even if it should desire not to suffer it, it would have no choice – but in any case it never would so desire. It is much more satisfying to a soul than is the delectable absorption, devoid of distress, which occurs in the Prayer of Quiet.

So powerful is the effect of this upon the soul that it becomes consumed with desire, yet cannot think what to ask, so clearly conscious is it of the presence of its God.

… for this delectable pain, which is not really pain, is not continuous: sometimes it lasts for a long time, while sometimes it comes suddenly to an end according to the way in which the Lord is pleased to bestow it, for it is a thing which no human means can procure. Although occasionally the experience lasts for a certain length of time, [elsewhere she mentions 3 or 4 hours] it goes and comes again; it is, in short, never permanent, and for that reason it never completely enkindles the soul; for, just as the soul is about to become enkindled, the spark dies, and leaves the soul yearning once again to suffer that loving pain of which it is the cause.

[Compare this with St. John’s words, “When this weight of anxious darkness passes, the soul often feels alone, empty, and weak.” I think in the absence of this purifying contemplation being given to their spirit, the person experiences customary darkness and aridity, thinking of God as having never known Him, and finding prayer difficult.]

One person [St. Teresa] who was granted this favour spent several years in the enjoyment of it and so completely did it satisfy her that, if she had served the Lord for very many years by suffering great trials, she would have felt well rewarded.

That this is no fancy is very evident; on other occasions the devil may create fancies of the kind, but he will never be able to counterfeit this.

 

[glenaitken]

Thanks Joysong, I’ll check it out!

 

[lpp]

…i am more sensitive to the sin around me… & that is HELL… :hypno:

God bless…

that’s true

 

[Nick9]

OK I know the basics of what a dark night of the soul is. But how does one know when they are in such a state, or is it possible to know? Does one who is in a ‘dark night of the soul’ usually sin?

If the dark night of the soul is essentially a transformation of the inner self, then it should mean even with the heavy cross to be carried, the person resists temptations and does not mortally sin right?

If you have very little spiritual consolation yet still perform your duties to God while at the same time are worried that you are offending Him, it is probably likely you are being purged in some kind of dark night. The fact that you want to please God and not offend Him shows that you love Him and are in a state of grace, and the lack of feeling shows that such love is being purged of things that are less than God (like nice feelings). This is what stuck with me from St John of the Cross.