What exactly is Lust?

[Christiano77]

Hi everyone, I’m new to forums so I apologize if I make any mistakes. Now on with my question. My question is, as the title implies, what exactly is lust ? I’ve read the catechism definition of lust which is as follows:

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

I’m having issues understanding what that means exactly. I think I understand the inordinate enjoyment sexual pleasure part, which I believe is unregulated, uncontrolled, excessive enjoyment of sexual pleasure, it’s the disordered desire for sexual pleasure that confuses me. Now I know wanting to have sex outside of marriage is bad, but where I’m confused is the sexual pleasure portion. What is that exactly? Hypothetical situation, let’s say that you’re walking down the street or watching t.v. or a movie and a beautiful woman catches your eye, would it be a sin to look at her and enjoy the pleasure it gives you. I’ve read Jimmy Akin’s article on looking at girls, I’ll post the link below, but I don’t know what he means by “pleasure” in this snippet:

I had understood that one could deliberately look at an attractive girl and admire her beauty -even the beauty of her form- and that the pleasure one finds in seeing her beauty and shape was not sinful to consent to and one could just ignore any “reactions of concupiscence” that happen.

What does he mean by pleasure here? Is it along the lines of “Wow look at her!” or is it a more “refined” pleasure, such as the pleasure one gets from looking at a beautiful mountain scape, a beautiful flower, a beautiful painting, a gorgeous sunrise, etc.

I’ve also found this online, posted on the Ask a Question page on the Youth Ministry Catholic Diocese of Townsville website. Someone asked if it was a sin to look up bikini models and Most Rev. Michael E. Putney Bishop of Townsville, Queensland Australia said it wasn’t a sin to look at bikini models. Here are some segments from his answer, I’ll post a link to the question below:

Is it a mortal sin to look up bikini models? Is it a mortal sin to have impure thoughts?

It is neither a sin to look at bikini models or have thoughts about sex. In the case of bikini models, we see them in newspapers or at the beach. If however we decide to look at them in a way that turns the woman into something other than real human beings with whom we could have a mature, respectful relationship, then we are beginning to sin. To look at other people as objects for our pleasure and to dwell on this or indulge this so that they cease to be real persons deserving our respect and honour, is to sin.

Being sexual and responding sexually to women is not a sin unless we indulge these reactions at the expense of their human dignity.

So after reading Jimmy Akin’s article and this I was thinking to myself maybe it’s okay to look at girls and enjoy it… and then I read this:

Immodest looks: The conscious looking at a person, picture, or scene that arouses sexual feelings to which a person has no moral right or need to experience. Since sexual feelings are sacred, to which only married persons between themselves have a claim, deliberately to look at something in order to be sexually stimulated is a grave sin (Matthew 5:28).

So… I’m very confused by all this information that seems like it contradicts itself. I’m thinking it might be okay to enjoy feminine beauty, but I’m unsure if the pleasure one gets from that is sinful. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Sorry if this post is too long.

BTW Just so you can understand where I’m coming from, I’m a young, single guy who is scrupulous.

Jimmy Akin article on looking at girls: jimmyakin.org/2009/01/appreciating-beauty-vs-concupiscence.html

Ask a Question - “Is it a sin to look up bikini models?”: youth.tsv.catholic.org.au/faith_daily/ask_a_question.php
Press Control+F and type in the word “bikini” in the search box that pops up to find the question fast

 

[Angelsflight]

I guess looking at anything that would give you sexual thoughts would be considered lust.

Merely thinking a woman is pretty or beautiful may not be such a bad thing…but if it makes you have strong sexual urges, then that would be lust.

 

[Edward_H]

I think there’s also a “seeing only the temporal” vs. the supernatural side to lust.

Lust of the eyes has been described as seeing only the temporal value of the things in this world. Applied to people, we might see a woman as only important in terms of her temporal value to us…we don’t see her as a child of God, as someone else’s eventual spouse, etc.

In some way this is the problem with abortion…we only see the value in what can be seen and touched…vs. what God has in store.

We should strive to see more and more things from the eyes of God, I think.

 

[A_Augustinus]

This is a fantastic post. I deeply appreciate the OP’s thoughtful approach, and I think he really captures the dilemma for those of us who are scrupulous. Here are a few things that came to mind as I thought about your post over the past day:

I think part of the key lies in how you phrased this question: “I’m thinking it might be okay to enjoy feminine beauty, but I’m unsure if the pleasure one gets from that is sinful.” A feeling of pleasure, in itself, is never sinful. It’s just a natural human experience. Only conscious choices can be sinful.

Now, that may be what you meant, but from my own experience, it’s easy for my scrupulous mind to start thinking that just because I enjoyed looking at a pretty girl, I must have sinned somewhere. In fact, for several years, I’ve fought with anxiety about sin every time I felt the least hint of sexual attraction. That may or may not be your experience, but here’s the thing: it demonstrates that scrupulous thinking is pretty far afield from God’s plan.

God clearly gave us sexual attractions, and he made them pretty universal. People feel them whether they’re seeking marriage or not. It makes for a really frustrating time if you’re worrying every time you feel attracted to a girl, but God didn’t mean it to be that way.

Like you, I’m still struggling to figure out exactly how he DID mean it to be. The best answer I have right now is that love and respect are the primary principles. I think the bishop’s answer, which you quoted, hits the target pretty squarely.

Now, how does that square with the other quote you gave about immodest looks? To me, the wording used there implies looking for the express purpose of arousing yourself sexually. And I don’t mean just feeling sexually attracted. That quote sounds like it’s referring to things like pornography, or purposefully watching a movie scene involving nudity, or looking at a girl and trying arouse yourself. See what I mean? Basically, think about the kind of motivation that people have for looking at pornography, and imagine looking at a girl with that same motivation and mindset. That’s what this quote refers to. It doesn’t apply to looking at a girl on the street, feeling a “jump” of attraction inside, and enjoying the fact that you saw a pretty girl.

Now the challenge of living with scrupulosity (and especially OCD, which often goes hand-in-hand with it) is that there can be so much worry about stepping over the line and sinning, that you get stuck in a worry loop about lust. It’s a classic pattern: I see a pretty girl; I worry that I’m going to think lustful things; a thought occurs to me that seems like it’s borderline lust; I feel terrible that I “failed”, and on and on and on. You need to recognize that pattern if it happens and stop TRYING not to lust. That doesn’t mean “start lusting.” It means, stop FIGHTING with your anxiety. Trust God, and trust yourself. You know you want to respect girls. You know you don’t want to lust. Trust that God will help you to be true to that.

 

[OpenSource]

Lust is this one thing that your dualistic god sends you to “hell” for and the rest of us LOL at your stupidity.

just sayin’

 

[A_Augustinus]

You know, it seems like silly legalism at first glance, but when you put it in the context of love, and realize that a conscious choice against love is also a choice against God in some way, it starts to make more sense. God doesn’t send us to hell over some silly technicality. We PUT ourselves in hell right now by choosing selfishness over love. That’s what this is all about.

 

[underacloud]

Lust is not *having *inappropriate sexual thoughts about someone, but *consenting *to such thoughts.

So, there’s nothing wrong with finding women attractive. Even that initial moment of thought that is of a sexual nature is a temptation, not a sin itself. But it is wrong…it is a sin…to consent to such thoughts of a sexual nature about someone else (other than our own spouse).

 

[Christiano77]

I think part of the key lies in how you phrased this question: “I’m thinking it might be okay to enjoy feminine beauty, but I’m unsure if the pleasure one gets from that is sinful.” A feeling of pleasure, in itself, is never sinful. It’s just a natural human experience. Only conscious choices can be sinful.

Now, that may be what you meant, but from my own experience, it’s easy for my scrupulous mind to start thinking that just because I enjoyed looking at a pretty girl, I must have sinned somewhere. In fact, for several years, I’ve fought with anxiety about sin every time I felt the least hint of sexual attraction.

I guess what I meant was what Jimmy Akin described, to “deliberately look at an attractive and shapely girl and liking to do so”. Being able to consent to the pleasure it gives you in admiring her and ignoring any “reactions of concupiscence”. One particular area were I experience uncertainty on this subject is with regards to images. Let’s say I’m flipping through a magazine or I’m online, etc. and I come across a picture of an attractive woman, perhaps in a swimsuit or something else revealing. I always kind of panic. Is it okay to look? Is it okay to enjoy looking? I also wonder if it’s okay to seek out these types of images to enjoy them.

Now as for your anxiety, I know what you mean. Anytime any sexual feelings or thoughts start emerging, I struggle in figuring out how to handle what I’m experiencing. I often ask myself, perhaps I’m being too repressive of my “inner faculties” which could be counter productive.

Lust is not *having *inappropriate sexual thoughts about someone, but *consenting *to such thoughts.

I don’t really have an issue with fantasizing about sexual activities, if that’s what you mean by inappropriate sexual thoughts. I think thoughts may only be sinful when you indulge them. My uncertainty lies in the body’s response to seeing attractiveness and whether it’s a sin or not to consent to enjoy that feeling.

Side Note: Here’s a website I’ve found to be very helpful to me with regards to scrupulosity.
Ten Commandments for the Scrupulous: mission.liguori.org/newsletters/scrupulosity.htm

 

[Edward_H]

One particular area were I experience uncertainty on this subject is with regards to images. Let’s say I’m flipping through a magazine or I’m online, etc. and I come across a picture of an attractive woman, perhaps in a swimsuit or something else revealing. I always kind of panic. Is it okay to look? Is it okay to enjoy looking? I also wonder if it’s okay to seek out these types of images to enjoy them.

Don’t panic, and don’t play psychoanalyst. Simply be the child of God that you are.

Use those nano moments as helpful ways of bringing God back into your ordinary day. Use those images, or approaching images that you can sense without yet fully looking as a way to remind you to pray.

“Lord, you make such beauty in this world, I offer this little averted glance for the sanctity of all marriages / for all expectant mothers / as atonement for all aborted babies / for the return of Your peace to all mothers who have aborted their children.”

Don’t seek them out, definitely don’t do that.

Talk to your Father like that and He will help you love the world in the right way, without scruples, with far less lust, serenely, and like a child.

 

[thewanderer]

Lust is this one thing that your dualistic god sends you to “hell” for and the rest of us LOL at your stupidity.

just sayin’

While we roll our eyes because you clearly have no idea of what we actually believe.

 

[underacloud]

I don’t really have an issue with fantasizing about sexual activities, if that’s what you mean by inappropriate sexual thoughts. I think thoughts may only be sinful when you indulge them. My uncertainty lies in the body’s response to seeing attractiveness and whether it’s a sin or not to consent to enjoy that feeling.

It depends on what responses you mean. Again, it’s natural for a man to enjoy seeing attractive women, for the heart to quicken for example. Natural reactions are not sinful. But if such reactions become sexual (eg an involuntary erection), they need to be resisted/avoided. Best to discuss such specifics with your confessor.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I guess looking at anything that would give you sexual thoughts would be considered lust.

Merely thinking a woman is pretty or beautiful may not be such a bad thing…but if it makes you have strong sexual urges, then that would be lust.

That sounds about right.
Of course that would apply to your spouse too:shrug:

 

[thewanderer]

That sounds about right.
Of course that would apply to your spouse too:shrug:

no no no no no no no!

That is not correct. Lust does not equal natural sexual desire! It occurs when the good, natural desire becomes distorted.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

no no no no no no no!

That is not correct. Lust does not equal natural sexual desire! It occurs when the good, natural desire becomes distorted.

If that were true, the Catholic Church would not label *virtually all *sexual desire people experience as Lust.

 

[Edward_H]

If that were true, the Catholic Church would not label *virtually all *sexual desire people experience as Lust.

That is a lie. The Catholic Church says that the sexual desire is a very good thing…God made it…it is good…it is very good…and the way it is to be expressed is via an act of charity…an act of self-donating love between married people.

How beautiful is that.

The Catholic Church thinks more highly about sex than you do!

 

[thewanderer]

If that were true, the Catholic Church would not label *virtually all *sexual desire people experience as Lust.

The fact of the matter is that it *doesn’t. *You are mistaken in your understanding of Church teaching.

 

[Christiano77]

Don’t seek them out, definitely don’t do that.

Hmm, the bishop’s quote that I put in my original post seems to say that is okay. He was asked if it was a sin to look up bikini models and he responded by saying it wasn’t a sin to look at them. But I understand what you’re trying to say. It would be best to avoid such images because they might cause you to sin, but that might depend on the individual and their vulnerability to these kinds of images.

It depends on what responses you mean. Again, it’s natural for a man to enjoy seeing attractive women, for the heart to quicken for example. Natural reactions are not sinful. But if such reactions become sexual (eg an involuntary erection), they need to be resisted/avoided.

From Most Rev Michael E Putney Bishop of Townsville, whom I quoted earlier:

Being sexual and responding sexually to women is not a sin unless we indulge these reactions at the expense of their human dignity.

I’ve also read an article elsewhere that might imply that erections are okay to have, as long as you don’t will, desire, or enjoy them.

Here’s the article I mentioned: ewtn.com/expert/answers/dating.htm

 

[Edward_H]

Hmm, the bishop’s quote that I put in my original post seems to say that is okay. He was asked if it was a sin to look up bikini models and he responded by saying it wasn’t a sin to look at them. But I understand what you’re trying to say. It would be best to avoid such images because they might cause you to sin, but that might depend on the individual and their vulnerability to these kinds of images.

From Most Rev Michael E Putney Bishop of Townsville, whom I quoted earlier:

I’ve also read an article elsewhere that might imply that erections are okay to have, as long as you don’t will, desire, or enjoy them.

Here’s the article I mentioned: ewtn.com/expert/answers/dating.htm

I am not sure I understand the full context for what the bishop said or thought he was saying. Maybe the bishop never had a problem with lust.

I am saying that as a once disordered youth, it’s not a good thing to “play with matches”. Even now, I know that I need to fight lust distant to my gate, fighting the lesser temptations quickly far away from the center of my attention.

Look, all our actions should have love of God as their primary purpose. Seeking pleasure for the pure sake of pleasure is, if not always a sin, something to monitor. Temperance in the “little things” is a healthy practice.

Don’t let your emotions or your body start acting like its your intellect or your will.

Looking through bikini magazines for the pleasure of it serves no one but you.

 

[Colorad007]

I have had the exact same questions. There seems to be a real debate between one group that believes that sexual attraction can be “redeemed,” which is to say that it can be transformed with the grace of charity into something good and okay, so long as it stays away from the active “wanting” that characterizes lust. The other side believes that lust is dangerous, and it is wisest to stay far away from the flames of concupiscence.

My own experience is that it is a lot easier on my (scrupulous) conscience, and I just feel a lot better, trying to guard my eyes carefully so that I don’t actively choose to look at any girl because she is attractive. If I see an attractive girl, I avert my eyes and try not to dwell on how attractive she was–or I picture my wife. Obviously, it’s a huge struggle. I have tried at various points to try “admiring the beauty” of pretty women. But I always find myself, while not wanting to do anything physical with her or becoming aroused, still fixated on her beauty, thinking, “oh, wow, she’s gorgeous/hot/whatever. Man, look at that (body, chest, whatever).” If I just keep focused on their eyes, I think, “oh, hey, she’s very attractive. That’s nice.” And it ends there. My wife ought to be the only source of sexual excitement. While I can’t help seeing attractive women, I can help looking a second time or continue looking after recognizing my attraction. It’s there that I try to disengage, so to speak, with my object of attraction, and think about and look at something else.

I will say that the idea that I can look at a really beautiful co-ed at my school and think, “oh, she’s beautiful just like the Rocky Mountains at sunset” is so absurd. The sexual impulse is WAY different from the ascetic enjoyment of a sunset, for example. Male nature tends to want women for sexual satisfaction, but obviously we don’t think of mountains that way. So I tend to dismiss the idea that we can look at women like we look at a Picasso or sunset.

 

[A_Augustinus]

Good points, Colorad007. There are mixed messages out there about how to deal with sexual attraction, and that can cause a lot of distress for scrupulous people. It raises questions like: Who’s right? How do I know what to do? How do I balance these conflicting ideas, etc.

It seems like the truth involves some combination of both ideas you mentioned. I think trying too hard to avoid sexual attraction is unwise, because it ultimately leads to a person feeling worn out and frustrated that they can’t even walk down a busy street without being “vigilant” about seeing an attractive girl (been there, done that). It’s easy to start seeing the attraction itself as a problem. This is definitely not the case. I firmly believe that God made our sexuality as part of his plan, and as such, he wants men and women to find each other attractive. That’s a very good thing.

At the same time, though, purposefully looking at the opposite sex to “appreciate beauty” can become selfish and lustful quickly, especially if it’s only a picture, rather than a real person standing in front of you. I definitely agree with you that it’s pretty absurd to compare admiring a beautiful woman to admiring a landscape or a glass vase, for example. We’re sexual beings. We’re meant to be attracted to the opposite sex. In a way, any man who can actually look at a beautiful woman and appreciate her in the same way as a sunset probably is imbalanced in some way. She’s a person, not scenery!

I think the bishop’s quote (referenced by the OP) probably should be read in this context. He’s saying that it’s part of God’s plan for a man to be sexually attracted to a woman, and the attraction is by no means sinful in itself.

I guess the main question is, where is the boundary? When does attraction lead into lust? Must it? Those who emphasize the idea of “sexual redemption” say that with God’s grace, we can experience attraction in a way that naturally leads to love, not lust. I think this is probably possible, but it takes a journey of discipline to get to that point. It’s important to be vigilant against the kinds of thoughts that degrade a person to a sex object, or something we can use for our own ends. It seems like that’s what the bishop is saying here:

Being sexual and responding sexually to women is not a sin unless we indulge these reactions at the expense of their human dignity.

Intellectually, the principle seems pretty clear, but in everyday life, it never seems so clear. That’s what’s so frustrating for a scrupulous mind like mine.