What exactly is Nirvana?

[Dorothy]

So Buddhism depends entirely on the experience of a human, not the revelation from above of a Supreme Being.

Which sounds very atheistic and without anything but human authority claimed for its truthfulness.

Thanks be to the Lord for divinely revealed revelation!

 

[scapularkid8]

So Buddhism depends entirely on the experience of a human, not the revelation from above of a Supreme Being.

Which sounds very atheistic and without anything but human authority claimed for its truthfulness.

The Buddha was not concerned with whether God existed or not. The only “authority” in Buddhism is yourself. The Buddha even said not to take his teachings as true just because he said them. We have to take them and test them for ourselves and if something doesn’t work, throw it out. If something works for you on your path to Enlightenment (ie, worshipping a deity) then use it.

Buddhism is not a religion of revelation, but more of a thinker giving his ideas on how to reach Nirvana based on his experience. People who are using this thinker’s method, or relying on dialogue with those who use this method would be called “Buddhist”, but it’s not a Western revealed religion like we think of it. In Asia, many people think of religion very differently and many people follow multiple “religions.” India alone has hundred, maybe even more than a thousand “religions.”

I think we should be careful about feeling some personal arrogance regarding our understanding of religion in the West and our possession of Divine Revelation in Christianity. We are all sinners, me being the worst offender, and need to focus on our salvation and turning from our sinfulness rather than putting others under a Western Christian microscope.

 

[rossum]

Is Nirvana like the Christian heaven?

No. You do not have to die before you attain nirvana.

Is Nirvana where worthy souls go when they die?

Buddhism does not believe in souls, so the question is not relevant.

“All the elements of reality are soulless.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

– Dhammapada 20:7

Is it purely a psychological state in this life that ends with this life?

It is in part a psychological state. It does not end with final death.

If it does not end with this life, where is it?

There is no “where”. It is not a material entity locatable in space-time.

What does one have to do or be to attain it?

Three things:

• cease doing evil. Christians can follow the Ten Commandments.
• do good. “Love your neighbour as yourself” sums it up well enough.
• mediate. This you will probably need to learn. Mindfulness meditation (vipassana) or Zen is generally a good place to start. For something more Christian, try Saying the Jesus Prayer.

Nirvana is usually described in negative terms. Positive description of the indescribable have problems. One of the more common descriptions is taken from the Udana:

[The Buddha said:] “There is, monks, an unborn, an unbecome, an unmade, an unconditioned. If there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, no escape would be possible from the born, become, made, conditioned. But precisely because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, escape from the born, become, made, conditioned is possible.” – Udana 8.3

rossum

 

[rossum]

Nor do I, but there has to be a Buddhist in this forum who can answer on whose authority we are reborn again and again.

We are reborn on our own authority. By failing to attain nirvana in our previous life, we were born again into our current life. Everything that is born dies; if you want to avoid dying then you need to avoid being born.

Was it on the authority of Buddha?

Is gravity due to the authority of Newton or Einstein? The Buddha discovered the way the universe works; he did not make it.

Who enlightened him and assured him that reincarnation was a fact?

The Buddha enlightened himself. He assured himself that it was a fact by remembering his previous lives.

If you want to assure yourself of the same fact, then you can remember your own previous lives. The instructions are given in the Visuddhimagga, Chapter 13:

1. So a bhikkhu who is a beginner and wants to recollect in this way should …

That is on page 406 of the PDF I linked to. The general section on Recollection of Past Lives begins at paragraph 13, on page 404.

rossum

 

[Vouthon]

The Buddha was not concerned with whether God existed or not. The only “authority” in Buddhism is yourself. The Buddha even said not to take his teachings as true just because he said them. We have to take them and test them for ourselves and if something doesn’t work, throw it out. If something works for you on your path to Enlightenment (ie, worshipping a deity) then use it.

Buddhism is not a religion of revelation, but more of a thinker giving his ideas on how to reach Nirvana based on his experience. People who are using this thinker’s method, or relying on dialogue with those who use this method would be called “Buddhist”, but it’s not a Western revealed religion like we think of it. In Asia, many people think of religion very differently and many people follow multiple “religions.” India alone has hundred, maybe even more than a thousand “religions.”

I think we should be careful about feeling some personal arrogance regarding our understanding of religion in the West and our possession of Divine Revelation in Christianity. We are all sinners, me being the worst offender, and need to focus on our salvation and turning from our sinfulness rather than putting others under a Western Christian microscope.

Amen to that!

To be honest, I think this Christian arrogance in relation to Buddhism stems from insecurities on the part of the individuals themselves. In short, the profound philosophy of the mind and suffering elucidated by the Buddha appeals to them on some level, which leads them to feel “threatened” and then lash out.

But as you say, we cannot treat Buddhism as we do other religions claiming to be revealed, like Islam for the simple reason that, despite having ceremonies and rituals, Buddhism is not a “religion” as we have grown accustomed to understanding this term.

Our approach to Buddhism is probably better seen through the lens of our historical approaches to Platonism, Stoicism and Aristotelianism.

Out of all the biblical books, the closest to the Buddha’s way of thinking is probably Ecclesiastes. I say this because the eponymous author, Koheleth (the Teacher), writes from “experience” of pleasuring himself and doing untold other things to find happiness but only ever discovers “vanity,” that is impermanence and suffering.

Similarly, the Buddha taught from experience as opposed to revelation. In this respect, He is like Plato, Socrates and the other great philosophers of Ancient Greece.

The Kalama Sutta epitomizes his methodology most succinctly and exquisitely:

**As they sat there, the Kalamas of Kesaputta said to the Blessed One, “Lord, there are some brahmans & contemplatives who come to Kesaputta. They expound & glorify their own doctrines, but as for the doctrines of others, they deprecate them, revile them, show contempt for them, & disparage them. And then other brahmans & contemplatives come to Kesaputta. They expound & glorify their own doctrines, but as for the doctrines of others, they deprecate them, revile them, show contempt for them, & disparage them. They leave us absolutely uncertain & in doubt: Which of these venerable brahmans & contemplatives are speaking the truth, and which ones are lying?”

"Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering’ — then you should abandon them.**

 

[rossum]

A rather helpful description I’ve heard from a monk is that Enlightenment is like being ill. We are aware of our illness and we are suffering, but it is not how we are by default. We slowly heal and then finally one day, at one moment we realize that we are no longer ill and we have been moving through our life without this suffering still. At this point, we have seemingly limitless energies to help all others who are suffering still. This is what Nirvana is like: it’s not a huge cosmic explosion with psychedelic colors and sitars playing in the background as Western images might have us expect.

Very true. Here is another piece from the Zen tradition, rather than the Vajrayana, saying the same thing:

People long for big thrills. Peak experiences. Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it . He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can’t tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I’ve ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.

– Zen is Boring, Brad Warner.

Hope this is accurate! Any Buddhists please correct me.

It is accurate and well expressed. Thankyou.

rossum

 

[rossum]

So Buddhism depends entirely on the experience of a human, not the revelation from above of a Supreme Being.

You have no way to test whether what a Supreme Being says is true; how do you know that you are not being fooled by Loki/Trickster in disguise? The Buddha was human, and what he did you can do as well. When the Kalamas asked him why they should follow his teachings, rather than the teachings of other preachers, he said:

[The Buddha said:] “Now, look you Kalamas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, nor by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor by the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea ‘this is our teacher’. Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are bad; these things are blameable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,’ abandon them. … Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blameable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.”

– Kalama sutta, Anguttara Nikaya, 3.65

You can check that what the Buddha said was correct by trying it out and seeing if it works. Keep what works and leave behind things that don’t.

Which sounds very atheistic and without anything but human authority claimed for its truthfulness.

You claim the authority of a God; Buddhists claim the authority of an enlightened Buddha. You see the authority of your God as being the greater. Buddhists see the authority of the Buddha as being greater. You cannot become God to check things out. We can become enlightened and check things out.

rossum

 

[Dorothy]

Buddha did not rise from the dead.

 

[rossum]

Buddha did not rise from the dead.

Others in this thread have pointed out that it is an error to apply assumptions from Abrahamic religions to Buddhism.

In Buddhism, coming back from the dead is a sign of failure. That the Buddha was not reborn is a sign of his success.

[The Buddha said:] “What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time – crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing – or the water in the four great oceans?”

“As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time – crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing – not the water in the four great oceans.”

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

“This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time – crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing – not the water in the four great oceans.”

– Assu sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 15.3

Since life is suffering then eternal life is eternal suffering. To avoid eternal suffering we need to avoid eternal life. Very different from the Abrahamic approach.

rossum

 

[scapularkid8]

Buddha did not rise from the dead.

The Buddha, and particularly the topic of this thread: Nirvana, are not concerned with life and death (mostly) or proofs of authority by divine miracles.

It’s apples to oranges. There could be a new topic in the non-Christian religion forums questioning the Buddha’s authority or divine mandate, but as far as Nirvana goes, I think we have aptly answered those questions.

 

[scapularkid8]

People long for big thrills. Peak experiences. Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it . He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can’t tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I’ve ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.

– Zen is Boring, Brad Warner.

Wonderful.

I think one friend told me also about a Titch Nhat Hanh quote where he was of the mind we can catch glimpses of Nirvana by just enjoying washing the dishes with focus. So similar to this.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

As with our conscience, we must be true to ourselves.

Beliefs and ideas may point to or away from the truth, and as such they are the intellectual aspect of our relationship with reality.
As best as I can say it to myself, one irrefutable truth is that we all exist in relation to God and the world.
God calls us to Him and all religions constitute man’s response. C.S. Lewis wrote of how He shouts to us in our suffering, His magaphone to rouse a deaf world. From that perspective, religions attempt to define the nature of the hurt in life and to provide a spiritual cure.
Now, one can be a member of the Catholic Church, which brings us together as one body, to proclaim and grow in love, on our journey to Him. One is not a member of Buddhism in the same way. Between and within the various religious traditions, there may or may not be some shared philosophical views and spiritual disciplines, but there exists a core that ties together the one body of humanity in its loving relationship with God, to be known in the Beatific Vision. It is love, and it extends beyond the Catholic Church, including people from all cultures.

We can gain in our understanding by listening to others. A difficulty arises in that we cannot divest ourselves of what we know, and when we listen to another’s view it can only be understood within that context. However, in the hearing, letting go and giving our minds over to what is different, sometimes from beyond our limits, something new is revealed. This our hope on these forums when we come to grow in faith.

So, about Buddhism:

Siddartha, born to riches and power, left that world for that of austere deprivation to come to terms with the suffering of the world. After many years at the point of death, he had a vision of a lute string - too loose, producing no sound, too tight, it broke; tuned correctly it produced it beautiful sound. At that point he abandonned the ascetic life, and as his followers left, considering him broken, he decided to sit until he would truly know. So, the Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree and on the night of the full moon in May, complete enlightenment came to him; it was revealed. He remained enjoying and in contemplation of the Supreme Experience but out of compassion for humanity, spread his understanding of existence and his solution to the root of what ails us.

We can be understood as being one with all creation through a relationship that is structured in accordance with our physical, mental and spiritual nature:
Physically, we are continuous with the rest of the material universe. We are one with it with respect to its processes which are shared, although manifested in far more complexity within us.
We have feelings, perceptions and rudimentary knowledge which is instinctual and shared by our fellow animated creatures, again so far more sophisticated.
Spiritually, we are aware of the good, the beautiful, the true and meaningful. We have a conscience and are free to grow in this knowledge. Ultimately, we are capable of love, of willing the good of the other and giving ourselves to that end.
We are one with the physical world, one psychologically and spiritually. At the same time this oneness of a shared humanity contains our individuality.
I am other to you as you are to me. We are one in our fundamental nature, which includes the finite consciousness that reflects our being individual spirits in relation to all existence.
Our relationship with creation and our Maker is perfected in love, a giving of ourselves as is due. To God who gives us life, we owe everything. The Beatific Vision is the reality of that cosmic relationship.

In Buddhism the cause of suffering are cravings rooted in ignorance and the solution it is to be found in the transcendence of desire and enlightenment. In Christianity, the cause is similar and called sin, the act of a rational being against the will of God, who is Love. Thus In love, we find the cure.

As persons, our spirit is one with the body and mind. That spirit is caught up in the game of life: family, friends, colleagues, neighbours, government, banks, pleasures, pains, successes and failures, prestige, self esteem, figuring things out, etc. All these things are illusory, not hallucinations or delusions, but images that arise through our relationship with the world, which if taken as anything other than doors to reality, can lead us further from the Truth. Desire keeps us trapped, seeking fulfillment in what is transient and lacking in what will satisfy what we truly need. so, ignorance of who we are and the related quest to satisfy worldly desires lies at the root of suffering. We will always be left disillusioned chasing the things of this world.

As to the technicality of reincarnation, there are obviously strong cultural influences in the description of what we do not know, but my way of understanding what Buddism might be getting at is that we are all incarnations of humanity. In terms of the first man, Adam separated by self-interest, united as one body in Christ, Love.

Whatever people call Nirvana, it’s reality is attainable in the here and now and not after innumerable lives but in this life, and not only at our death when we must face the reality of whom we have become.

 

[scapularkid8]

To be honest, I think this Christian arrogance in relation to Buddhism stems from insecurities on the part of the individuals themselves. In short, the profound philosophy of the mind and suffering elucidated by the Buddha appeals to them on some level, which leads them to feel “threatened” and then lash out.

Yes, because the Buddha’s teachings on suffering and the mind’s behavior are (IMHO) very detailed and accurate and the Gospels simply aren’t talking about these things so it might make things look a little gray rather than black and white which is uncomfortable for those who might be first discovering them.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Others in this thread have pointed out that it is an error to apply assumptions from Abrahamic religions to Buddhism.

In Buddhism, coming back from the dead is a sign of failure. That the Buddha was not reborn is a sign of his success.

So Buddhist do not believe in eternal life once Nirvana has been achieved?

The soul ultimate dies with the body? This is very atheistic.

 

[rossum]

So Buddhist do not believe in eternal life once Nirvana has been achieved?

Certainly not. Eternal life is eternal suffering, and the point is to avoid suffering. Nirvana is the cessation of suffering.

The soul ultimate dies with the body?

There is no soul so it cannot die. A soul has as much reality as the water in a mirage; you think it is there but really it isn’t. Part of enlightenment is to realise this.

This is very atheistic.

Buddhism has a lot more gods than the Abrahamic religions:

Sakra, the ruler of the celestials, with twenty thousand gods, his followers, such as the god Chandra (the Moon), the god Surya (the Sun), the god Samantagandha (the Wind), the god Ratnaprabha, the god Avabhasaprabha, and others; further, the four great rulers of the cardinal points with thirty thousand gods in their train, viz. the great ruler Virudhaka, the great ruler Virupaksha, the great ruler Dhritarashtra, and the great ruler Vaisravana; the god Ishvara and the god Maheshvara, each followed by thirty thousand gods; further, Brahma Sahdmpati and his twelve thousand followers, the Brahmakayika gods, amongst whom Brahma Sikhin and Brahma Gyotishprabha, with the other twelve thousand Brahmakayika gods.

– Saddharmapundarika sutra, Chapter One

rossum

 

[Vico]

Certainly not. Eternal life is eternal suffering, and the point is to avoid suffering. Nirvana is the cessation of suffering.

There is no soul so it cannot die. A soul has as much reality as the water in a mirage; you think it is there but really it isn’t. Part of enlightenment is to realise this.

Buddhism has a lot more gods than the Abrahamic religions:

Sakra, the ruler of the celestials, with twenty thousand gods, his followers, such as the god Chandra (the Moon), the god Surya (the Sun), the god Samantagandha (the Wind), the god Ratnaprabha, the god Avabhasaprabha, and others; further, the four great rulers of the cardinal points with thirty thousand gods in their train, viz. the great ruler Virudhaka, the great ruler Virupaksha, the great ruler Dhritarashtra, and the great ruler Vaisravana; the god Ishvara and the god Maheshvara, each followed by thirty thousand gods; further, Brahma Sahdmpati and his twelve thousand followers, the Brahmakayika gods, amongst whom Brahma Sikhin and Brahma Gyotishprabha, with the other twelve thousand Brahmakayika gods.

– Saddharmapundarika sutra, Chapter One

rossum

The* Lotus Sutra* (Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra) says that a Buddha is immortal and there is an endless stream of them.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Certainly not. Eternal life is eternal suffering, and the point is to avoid suffering. Nirvana is the cessation of suffering.

There is no soul so it cannot die. A soul has as much reality as the water in a mirage; you think it is there but really it isn’t. Part of enlightenment is to realise this.

Buddhism has a lot more gods than the Abrahamic religions:

Sakra, the ruler of the celestials, with twenty thousand gods, his followers, such as the god Chandra (the Moon), the god Surya (the Sun), the god Samantagandha (the Wind), the god Ratnaprabha, the god Avabhasaprabha, and others; further, the four great rulers of the cardinal points with thirty thousand gods in their train, viz. the great ruler Virudhaka, the great ruler Virupaksha, the great ruler Dhritarashtra, and the great ruler Vaisravana; the god Ishvara and the god Maheshvara, each followed by thirty thousand gods; further, Brahma Sahdmpati and his twelve thousand followers, the Brahmakayika gods, amongst whom Brahma Sikhin and Brahma Gyotishprabha, with the other twelve thousand Brahmakayika gods.

– Saddharmapundarika sutra, Chapter One

rossum

How do Buddhists know there are thousands of gods but no soul?

Do the Buddhist gods also die?

If so, they do not qualify as gods, but rather as created beings who live and die just like men.

If they do not die, do they suffer eternally because they can’t die, which you suggested above when you said “Eternal life is eternal suffering”?

 

[jaimeleglise]

I don’t believe it is arrogance to speak the truth from charity. I find it uncharitable to call us Christians “arrogant”.

 

[scapularkid8]

How do Buddhists know there are thousands of gods but no soul?

They are just coming from an Indian way of seeing the universe which is largely Hindu and they believe in countless gods.

Think of it this way: pretend there is a religion called iPhone. In iPhone religion and among the culture of the people who practice iPhone, there is an ancient tradition that there are only four gods. A really exceptional iPhone preacher who has his own idea about how to reach salvation comes along and starts giving classes. A lot of people see that this preacher’s tips work really well for them in finding salvation. After he dies they keep thinking about and teaching others about his tips and people in the West who later discover them call them Tip-ists because they follow the tips. Actually some of them might really be still following iPhone-ism and worshipping or believing in the four gods. But by now the tips have spread to other countries with no iPhone-ists. Many of the followers of the Tips at this point might just be people who never worshipped the four gods of iPhone. Whether they originally worship those gods of iPhone is now irrelevant because the Tips are very good advice for anyone trying to reach salvation.

Just as it doesn’t matter if the follower of the Tips is from the iPhone religion anymore, so it doesn’t matter if a Buddhist person is Hindu and worships or even believes in their gods. It was just the situation in which everyone in India, including the Buddha taught about religious things. The gods in India are also not always thought of as actual deities with bodies, but in many Indian religions are thought of only as symbols of one small aspect of the One God.

Do the Buddhist gods also die?
Every Buddhist is different in their belief of gods. You have to ask each Buddhist personally. There are many atheist Buddhists in the world, as well as many Buddhists who believe in gods or Buddhas like a folk religion. There are also many Christian Buddhists through history and also Muslim Buddhists possibly somewhere in Central Asia. Buddhism does not require anyone to ever believe or not believe in any god or gods.

If they do not die, do they suffer eternally because they can’t die, which you suggested above when you said “Eternal life is eternal suffering”?
You’re right, they suffer because they do not die. Actually that’s why it’s very dangerous to be reincarnated as a god. Some people would like to think existence would be without suffering if they could be a god or in a heaven when they die. The gods are in a very bad state, some monks say it is worse than hell, because they can have everything they want almost until the end of time and they are so distracted by all of their pleasures being fulfilled instantly that they can never focus on being awakened or practicing the Dharma (the Buddha’s tips). But they still suffer because they still constantly want more and more because they know their wish will be perfectly fulfilled instantly because they are a god with power.

At the temples here in Korea (and I think in Tibetan Buddhism also), every night and morning they ring a giant bell because they believe the vibrations are strong enough to go out to the heavens and hopefully snap the gods out of their delusion and get them to remember to try to wake up, remember any of a Buddha’s tips they once learned countless lives ago as an animal or human, and reach Nirvana.

 

[scapularkid8]

In Tibetan Buddhism they are very focused on this one life: right now. Because of that the Dalai Lama has even theorized that reincarnation might not be physically living many times, but we are “reincarnated” as a different beings during this life countless times.

I am a child: I run around as carelessly and beautifully as a butterfly.
I am a manual laborer: I work with no break and no voice at the will of others like an ox.
I am a CEO with endless cash: I am a god.
I am a lonely person who looks for love: I am a hungry ghost.
I am someone who spreads social division: I am a demon.

But as a human we all share one nature: Buddha nature. We are all fully capable of attaining Nirvana in an instant if we just try correctly.