What exactly is people's beef with feminism here?

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I’m usually a lurker here on CAF, but I keep seeing hostile comments toward feminism that really confuse me. People here scowl at the term like it’s synonymous with “relativism” and “free love”. What about feminism is evil, exactly?

I assume that the denouncers here are working with a different definition of “feminism” than my own, because I thought that, in general, feminism is the idea that women should be treated fairly in society, in the workplace, in media, in matters of law, etc. Wasn’t it the Feminist Movement that gave women the right to vote here in America? Isn’t that a good thing? I mean, I’m sure none of us here would argue that women DON’T deserve to be treated fairly.

Now, I know that everyone thinks of feminism differently… I know that a lot of people who support abortion do so in the name of feminism, and I personally have a very self-proclaimed feminist friend who’s a borderline mysandrist. I acknowledge that because the definition of feminism is so vague, it can attract some negative connotations. But I always figured that the basic idea was noble, even if some people go about it the wrong way.

Because there are still areas of life where women are not given the respect they deserve, I think feminism still needs to be a thing. We’ve come a long way, but women are still sexually harassed, still marginalized in our films and advertisements, still earn less in the workplace than their male counterparts of the same job title. Feminism needs to be properly ordered toward what we as Catholics know is good, but we do need to work toward a society where women are given their due respect.

But I’d like to hear your guys’ side of the story.

P.S. For context’s sake, I am a 22 year old female.
 
I’d say there are two main dimensions to this.

One, which all Catholics ought to agree with, is that some things which the modern feminist movement has fought for, like abortion and contraception, are gravely wrong. Thus the feminism can be criticized for supporting these things. There may be individual feminists, such as yourself perhaps, who do not support these things, but if one is to speak approvingly or disapprovingly of groups at all there has to be a degree of generalization, and generalizing modern feminists as pro-abortion and pro-contraception does seem reasonable.

The other dimension to this issue is older and much more debatable. That is the idea that gender roles both inside and outside the family are natural and good and that feminism seeks to subvert this. For this reason you will find some revered Catholic authors, such as the very pro-women G.K. Chesterton, regarding feminism as an error over a hundred years ago. The overwhelming success of the feminist movement since then has made such skepticism of the more foundational principles of the ideology, like women’s suffrage or the idea that women should be hired for every or virtually every job men are, seem unthinkable and unfair to many in the modern world, but you will find a good number of Catholics on boards like these who uphold more traditional opinions on gender roles.
 
Because when your average man in the pews hears about feminism, it’s usually those feminists who are against Catholic teaching, particularly those on the value of all human life and on the proper place of sex. I am sure there are many feminists who do not so dissent (those associated with the Susan B. Anthony List, for instance), but you never hear about them as much on the secular media, who as we all know prefers to showcase the views of radicals if it will gain them that extra percentage return on investment.

Now, those strands of feminism opposed to the Church ought to be resisted by all Catholics, as a matter of course. But your average layman, who associates the word feminism, not with questions such as the right to be treated as more than a piece of meat in the workplace or the right to a fair and equal wage, but with barbarous attitudes towards the unborn and erroneous ideas of the place of sexual intercourse, often mistakenly throws the baby out with the bathwater. Which is not of course right, and thus we ought to explain that the teachings of Holy Mother Church demand that women be treated with full human dignity.
 
to the OP: You might want to read this thread first.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=756315&highlight=Mystique

Feminism as you describe it is not necessarily at odds with Church teaching. But yes, the definition of the term varies, according to context and era. Any movement that is adversarial with respect to the other sex is something that would by its nature be considered a form of injustice, in Church thinking. Men are not our enemies; they are our complements and spiritual equals before God.

The reason I tend to remove myself from Feminism as a “movement” is partly because I think it’s more important to battle against many injustices. (You speak of places where women are still oppressed; I can pretty much guarantee that other groups are probably oppressed in that same region or country: children, refugees, the poor, the disabled, etc.) As Catholics supporting universal justice, I do not see the massive group, “Women” as being specially oppressed vs. some of these other groups, at least not globallly, consistently, in the 21st century,

Suffragism was a worthy crusade, focused on basic human rights. Ditto for racial civil rights: a movement toward human justice, or the refusal to deny justice based on an accidental characteristic of birth – skin color. We should refuse to allow others, anywhere, to deny justice to human beings, whatever their religion, race, age, disability, sex.

Where there are selected cases of disparity between the treatment of men and the treatment of women (such as in the case of rape victims in certain countries), then conscientious people can/should try to call attention to such injustice, but often (again) there are other injustices operative, such as police corruption (bribes), which are beyond gender.
 
I’m not reading any other views on here but yours in answering this, so I don’t get distracted. I apologize in advance if there is any redundancy.

I am a 53 year old female. I grew up in a city where there were all kinds of civil rights issues and bussing was beginning. The feminists then took a radical stand. Men reacted negatively and rudely in rebellion (especially young teens). I was shy, quiet. I would have my arms loaded with books, freezing cold out, getting ready to go into school, and a guy would walk in front and let the door slam in front of me, yet a guy carrying a gym bag, the other guys would hold the door open for. This is how bad it was. Female gym teachers were as if they had to prove the fems could meet or exceed the standards for the guys. Fems were pushing it too far toward more masculine terms. Instead of equal but different.
I believe in rights on the issues that you stated you were for. However, I am NOT a feminist. Feminist to me means prejudiced towards the rights of females, working only toward their advancement. I am an EGALITARIAN. I am for the rights of those that respect the rights of others no matter what gender, age, ethnicity, race, etc. I believe that most people in this country should be.

I hope I cleared up at least where folks like I am coming from. I thought I was past this, yet worked a blue collar job down in New Mexico, and the shop attitude was as if I was back in 1974 at that school door in Illinois.

As far as the church goes, I think we should consider the symbolism of the Holy Family. Although personally, I do believe that women were not allowed in the area of the Holiest of Holies due to fear of blood borne illness and menstruation. They were allowed to teach just outside. The church has been very good about differing roles within the family. I personally wish that more ‘light’ would be shown on the achievements of many of the sisters. The Dominicans, the Franciscans…who practically run in a not for profit corporation, the Catholic Hospital system in the midwest. I know there are many others doing great work. Now, if we can highlight some in profitable, capitalistic, corporate or small business…fantastic!!! Role models for young Catholic women.
 
Most who speak against feminism typically are speaking about radical feminism. In particular I am talking about second and third wave feminist that promote the idea that women are more capable then men or that men and women are essentially interchangeable.

I think the goals of first wave feminism (e.g. universal voting, freedom to pursue careers, etc.) are noble. When you get to second wave (and some late first wave, ala Margaret Sanger) you start to see a shift from equality with men to liberation from men. With the second wave came the rise of birth control to liberate women from the home and servitude of motherhood. You also saw a rise in the thought that women should run the world since men had screwed it up. Where as first wave feminist wanted to be equal second wave feminist wanted to be seperate.

When you get to third wave feminist you see a move to sameness. In other words men and women have no fundamental differences. You see a rise in women that want to act like their male counterparts especially in areas of sexual prowess. In other words this is were we see a rise in the thought that women should be able to have as many sexual partners as men without being seen in a negative light. Instead of beating them like second wave feminist, they want to become them.

That is not to say that is the goal of each wave of feminism and is obvioisly painted with broad strokes, but in general theses areas of radical feminism are those that cause many to get up in arms.

I guess you could say it comes down to the feeling that radical feminist often appear to pit themselves against men and traditional relationships as the enemy. It is the cries of misogyny when practicing misandry that cause me in particular to see red. I am all for women being treated with respect, but not if its from a movement that paints all men as the enemy. God made man and woman as complements of each other, not interchangeable replacements. As long as radical feminist beat the war drum against men I will not support them.
 
To a Catholic,
feminism can go in two ways: Susan B Anthony and a pro-woman/pro/life direction or
Margaret Sanger and her pro-abortion cohorts’ direction.

If you detect resentment against feminism in a Catholic website the above might be a thought for you. Women have often had a hand up in Catholicism but have not required “equality” as much as regard and respect. We are not equal; as GK Chesterton admits: females are superior. We do not favor destroying our femaleness, so we resent the feminist “package”. Had feminism left out the death part of that package, we would be much happier about the word ‘Feminist’. Even Alice Walker, author and not a Catholic, favors the term “womanism.” Check out a “Feminists for Life” website.
 
Abbigaelann said:
Feminist to me means prejudiced towards the rights of females, working only toward their advancement. I am an EGALITARIAN. I am for the rights of those that respect the rights of others no matter what gender, age, ethnicity, race, etc. I believe that most people in this country should be.
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Thank you, Abbigaelann. That sums up how I often feel. Equality should be about raising up all, not just a specific group. Too often we setup laws to promote one group by punishing or tearing down another.
 
Thanks for all of these great responses. They’re giving me a good insight!
 
And of course within The Church, Mary as Queen of Heaven [and Earth] - although lower than God since she is ‘His’ creation, has been raised above all other non-divine humanity. She has been chosen as the exemplar, along with her Divine Son Jesus, of how we should seek to live our lives.
 
I would even go so far as to say some aspects of second-wave feminism, like the idea that women had the right to their own property even within marriage and were to be treated equally where practicable, was a good thing. The problem is that these laudable ideas (see Casti Connubii for the Holy Father’s denunciation of the tendency for men of many cultures to treat their wives and other female relatives as minors) were accepted at the same time as the acceptance of wider society of ABC and abortion as normative. So good Catholics, obviously detesting the latter, condemned those feminists who merely stood for the former. That even those who stood for abortion and suchlike also stood for the laudable things served to confuse people, especially as those extremists were the ones shown on the nightly news (because they got viewers, viewers loving a trainwreck). The news media served to perpetuate a stereotype that all feminists believed the same things in all things, when in fact feminist schools of thought quarrel amongst each other like a pail of crabs. Of course, given how they misrepresent Catholicism, I’m not surprised the media misrepresents the ideological geography of the woman’s movement.
 
I can’t speak about Feminism for the catholic church, But I do have an opinion
About Feminism in the workforce… they come in two groups,
Group one… they have equal rights,can do whatever a male can do & work hard like anyone should be able to… they talk to you eye to eye…
Group two… They are a pain in the neck… they make you feel insecure , because they talk down to you, not to you… they have equal rights and they want everyone to know it, and don’t you dare question there ability to make decisions because there smarter than you…
and don’t you dare let them catch a glimpse of whatever just because they keep those two top buttons of there blouse undone…
Well thats about it in a nutshell… I could give more examples, but no need…lol
I just thank God I’m away from the workforce because Feminism & Political Correctness
Drive me nuts !
 
My problem with feminism as a guy is the dismissive tone when it comes to the challenges men face, the divisive way the majority speaks about men, and their overall priority of issues. Melinda Gates and her posse of “women’s rights” people are amassing funds for the “unmet need for contraception” in developing nations. In nearly every election and groups like Mrs. Gates’ the sun rises and sets on contraception and abortion. I mean these people give more time and energy towards sex issues than anything else. Instead of pumping the developing world with contraceptives and making abortion look attractive why don’t they build schools? Education naturally brings down birth rates AND creates a civilized citizenry. That’s 2 big birds with 1 stone. Spending millions or billions so people can have “consequent free sex” over of clean water, food, and education is ridiculous to me.

Sandra Fluke put a great amount of time and energy in her crusade for free birth control in this country when there are countless other issues that she could have drawn attention to (i.e. Selective Service equality for women, better parental leave laws, divorce law equality, and prison sentence equality). Of coarse when it comes time to give up the goodies the feminists are quiet or just pay lip service to the issues at hand. When it comes to sex though they are on top of that (no pun intended).

Also, if you are a male and disagree with ANYTHING the majority stands for you are a misogynist to them. The use that word like its going out of style. If you are a woman that disagrees with the feminist majority well, you are just a man with boobs according to state PA senator Babette Josephs. Last time I checked feminism was supposed to be about women being able to speak independently. I guess that only applies sometimes. Hypocrisy much?

I personally think the feminist movement has morphed into an anger movement. It has become very emotionally irresponsible and hypocritical. Voting rights, owning property, jobs, and so forth were great and noble accomplishments. These however are basic civil rights. There is nothing feminine about them as the term “feminism” suggests.

As it is said in Bible “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?” Matthew 7:16
 
people love labels because its a lazy way of thinking. “feminism” has meant probably 5,000 things, some good (voting rights), some bad (abortion), some involve a little more thinking (equality in the workplace). most people don’t, won’t or can’t think. calling something “feminist” takes the challenge of thinking away. why look at a complex issue, if someone calls it “feminist” its necessarily “bad”.
 
Fairwinds said:
people love labels because its a lazy way of thinking. “feminism” has meant probably 5,000 things, some good (voting rights), some bad (abortion), some involve a little more thinking (equality in the workplace). most people don’t, won’t or can’t think. calling something “feminist” takes the challenge of thinking away. why look at a complex issue, if someone calls it “feminist” its necessarily “bad”.
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Most don’t what? You know this how? Are you insulting some or most of the people here?

The vicious anti-family feminists started out in 1966 as the National Organization for Women. They only started to get their venom across in the 1970s. They used the classic Marxist class warfare system. Simple and uncomplicated, I was there for all of it. Women: the eternal victim class. Men: the eternal enemies class. They created an artificial separation of the sexes, called men “male chauvenist pigs” and since most businesses were run by men, including the Church, the goal was to overthrow the patriarchy. That poison is what feminism in the media, starting in the 1970s, means.
  1. Instead of attempting to solve the very real problems that existed, and still exist between men and women, they decided not to, at least as far as men were concerned.
  2. To create a further sense of psychological separation, courses in colleges with names like “Women’s Studies” began to appear.
  3. Feminist icons began to spew the following: Betty Friedan compared the family to “a comfortable concentration camp.” “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Gloria Steinem, one of the founders of Ms. magazine (yes, that’s where that divisive word comes from).
  4. Meanwhile, women were being prostituted on a massive scale and turned into toys for viewing by men who created the porn industry. No feminists were protesting outside of Adult Bookstores, Topless Bars or Strip Clubs. What else were those women doing but satisfying a perverted need for the enemy?
  5. This is the National Organization for Women today. See what they stand for.
www.now.org/
I was all for equal pay for equal work but that fizzled.

I was all for no sexual harassment on the job.

But, now that the internet exists, women are being exploited as never before.

Meanwhile, the current leader of NOW is saying prostitution should be legalized. The article I read showed a black woman. Again, if they cared about women, why would they not help them get out of the slavery of prostitution?

Ed
 
But not all feminists affiliate with the NOW.

I suspect that due to the actions of the radicals, and a few outright misogynists, people think the word ‘feminist’ applies only to the more radical wing of the movement. Then of course, the stereotype was perpetuated by the media.
 
Cojuanco said:
But not all feminists affiliate with the NOW.

I suspect due to the actions of the radicals, and a few outright misogynists, people think the word ‘feminist’ applies only to the more radical wing of the movement. Then of course, the stereotype was perpetuated by the media.
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True, but then true feminist should take the word back and not let NOW carry the banner. If you are a feminist and oppose planned (un)parenthood, abortion, contraception, misandry and all the other ills that radical feminazis support then standup and say NO we don’t support that. Feminist can’t crawl into bed with abortionist because they happen to support fair wages and not expect the abortionists’ stench to cling to them.

One other thing since it always seems to come up. Women making lower wages is not generally driven by gender. At least when I had a staff the issue was that women didn’t ask for the same wages or were not assertive when it came to asking for a raise. If a man asks for $100k and a woman asks for $80k for the same job they will get what they ask for. My job was to hire the most competent person that could perform the work. If a man or woman asked for lower than the median in my group it was not my responsibility to tell them that they shot low. Men on my staff were probably 20 times more likely to ask for an additional raise or complain if they thought their raise was too low.

So if you are a man or woman that thinks you are under paid then you need to:
  1. Know what the market price for your job is and then ask for slightly more.
  2. Be prepared to sell why you are worth more than other employees.
  3. Be prepared to walk away from a low offer. If you accept a job at lower than your peers that is your fault.
  4. When it is time for reviews have a list of accomplishments including how you saved or made the company money.
In the 7 years I managed a staff, for 4 of those years a woman was either the highest or second highest paid employee on my staff. The two other women on the staff were paid below the median. One was because she moved from a smaller job market and did not ask for the additional 15% difference between markets. The other did not have the same throughput as her peers so did not earn the same raises and bonuses.

My point in all this is that the pay disparity is not nessicarily wage discrimination. I am all for getting rid of any vestigial wage discrimination, but I do not support the idea that every one should make the same amount based purely on title. When taking a job we all agree to do work x for wage y. If my y is lower than yours that is what I agreed to do the work for so it is my fault for not selling myself better or holding out for more.
 
edwest2 said:
Most don’t what? You know this how? Are you insulting some or most of the people here?..
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I’m in favor of voting rights for black women. I’m a feminist in that way. I admit it. I’ve offended someone, sure as there’s daylight outside, someone’s insulted.
 
I think many men and women view feminism as some women wanting to have their cake and eat it, too.

Really, what we see is a conflict between market demands for gender-neutral individualism and social/familial needs/demands for more specific female (name removed by moderator)uts.

(Yeah, I said that crazily; I’m no economist, so it’s rough).
 
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