What, exactly, is the EF Mass?

[TimSpalding]

Since about the year 400 AD the Official language of the World wide “Catholic” church[that’s what the name means]; has been and continues to be Latiin.

The correct word for that is “bollox” (bollox, bollicis, n.). So long as the church remained unified (i.e., 1054, and sporadically after that), the church was divided between Latin and Greek, with four of the five patriarchates–defined by ecumenical council–purely Greek. If one were to get into it, one would more readily say the official language of the church was Greek, not Latin. Needless to say, the New Testament itself was written in Greek. But, more importantly, all seven of the first seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787), were called by the Greek emperors (or empresses), transpired in the Greek east, were conducted in Greek, and had their official records acta and canons in Greek.

As regards practice, the Roman curia largely works in Italian. The most important official documents are published in Latin, although they’re largely composed in Italian–or German–and translated into Latin as the final stage. At the last Ecumenical council everyone was supposed to talk in Latin, but many eastern patriarchs and bishops rebelled, as Latin was not their language, and spoke French instead. If another council is held there can be little doubt it will not be conducted in Latin. As for the mass, all the rites of the church, in all their languages—Latin, Greek, Syriac, Coptic, etc.—are considered of equal dignity.

in a language that was written on the original Cross

The third language, the language of the people who actually killed Jesus, and it was written only so Roman soldiers could understand it. There’s no reason to believe Jesus or any of his associates knew any Latin whatsoever. Roman officials interacted with locals in Greek.

 

[Rich_C]

Thanks! I’d love to see a TLM. I remember how I felt when I attended my first Catholic Mass…like an observer, not a participant. I also felt totally lost as to what was going on, when to sit, when to stand, when to kneel, how to respond…all those things that Cradle Catholics take for granted. For me, attending a TLM would feel the same way. It’s okay to be distracted at Mass as a Protestant who’s never been to Mass. Not so much as a Catholic.
Kris

You make a good point. Lots of Catholics forget how confusing even the ordinary vernacular Mass is to a newcomer.

Its not a perfect analogy, but I’d compare it to my driving experience.

When I was 16, learning to drive my mother’s automatic-transmission car was very difficult. By the time I was 24, I could all but do it in my sleep. That year, I got a manual-transmission car and struggled almost as much to learn it (the basics were the same, but it was more immersive, more demanding) but now two years later driving stick is almost as easy as driving automatic ever was, and more rewarding for me.

 

[Rich_C]

Just an aside, but it doesn’t logically follow that because conversions declined in the period after the introduction of the new Mass, the new Mass is to blame.

Please don’t misunderstand me: that’s not what I meant.

All I meant is that if more people were converting during the Latin-Mass years than afterwards, then clearly the Latin Mass is not the obstacle to conversion people claim.

The same “otherness” of the Latin Mass that is offputting at first, seems to draw in people after a while. I’ve read beautiful testimonies to that effect.

Not to discount the OP’s concerns at all, or disrespect, but all of the people who have ever told me that the Latin Mass would have kept them from converting have never been to one.

On the other hand, most of my friends at the Latin Mass are converts from Protestantism. Its not a representative sample size, but I put weight on what these people say, since they speak from experience.

Just trying to encourage openness to new experiences, no bone to pick.

 

[Mike30]

I have only been a Catholic for 8 years. This means that I have only attended Mass approximately 500 times in my entire life. That’s including RCIA, and assuming I went every Sunday, which I didn’t. Therefore, while a Cradle Catholic may be familiar enough with the prayers to “say them in whatever language suits them,” I’m not. Nor are the exact same prayers said at each Mass. There are several the priest can choose from, not to mention special ones for certain feasts, solemnities, etc. I know the priest is not offering the prayer to me. But I am supposed to join my prayer to his, with his. How can I do that if I don’t know what he’s saying, given that I don’t know the prayers all that well? How can I not be distracted by trying to figure out where he is in the Mass so I know which prayer I am supposed to be praying? The problem is that you seem to be putting my problems with distraction into the same category as those who either were 1) raised with Mass in Latin, or 2) Have been going to Mass their entire life and so can quote the prayers verbatum if necessary.

I don’t think this is the same as attending Mass in a foreign country, either. I think if I were in a foreign country and my only option was to attend Mass in a language I didn’t know, God would give me the grace to worship and not be distracted because it’s my only option. That’s not the case here. If I were to attend a Mass in Latin, I would become…confused. Somehow, I don’t think God wants us to be confused at Mass.

If God didn’t think it was important for us to understand, why did the crowd at Pentecost all hear St. Peter in their own language? Please understand, sometimes here on the Forum people post things, especially Latin phrases that I honestly don’t know. I don’t speak “Catholic” fluently yet. And Cradle Catholics sometimes…forget that, while you have had the blessing of a lifetime of learning your Catholic faith, we’ve only had a few years. And those were dedicated to learning the essentials, like the Sacraments. Or the fact that it’s a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation. Or that eating an hour before Mass applies to daily Mass, the same as Sunday Mass. In other words, you have a college degree (figuritively speaking) while I’m still in grade school. Please be patient with me.
Kris

I thought long and hard about answering this post, to try to describe things a bit better etc., but I decided against it. Your mind is clearly made up and no matter what any one else or I say about it you are not going to change your mind.

Oh and as far as anyone drawing a distinction between cradle Catholics and converts, that was you, not me.

 

[Esrb99]

I think the best way to try to understand the old mass is to just see a bit of what it looks and sounds like:

Here’s part 1 of a sung high mass on a sunday in France, which begins with the water-sprinkling right (Asperges). It begins around the 2:00 mark.
Sung High Mass video LINK

Here is a video of the first half of what’s called a low mass. Though I am normally a fan of the sung high mass, the young priest in this video is so precise and focused, that for me, makes him the model of how a priest should celebrate the mass. As an aside, I think he is the guy carrying the incense/censer during the procession in the video above.

Low Mass Video (Pt. 1) LINK

Finally, a video was put out that explains the gestures and some of the words in the mass along with the low mass above. It also has the same priest, and is highly beneficial. Here’s a link to the first part of it below-the whole thing is on Youtube.

youtube.com/watch?v=B5KfmWbHteY

I hope these help!

 

[Rich_C]

Here’s something else you probably don’t understand–how Protestants (and Catholic converts) can worship God with contemporary Christian music or even Christian rock music. Again, you weren’t raised with it.

As an aside, every cradle Catholic I know under the age of 40 has been raised with that sort of thing. It’s not just a Protestant thing anymore.

 

[ProVobis]

So long as the church remained unified (i.e., 1054, and sporadically after that), the church was divided between Latin and Greek, with four of the five patriarchates–defined by ecumenical council–purely Greek. If one were to get into it, one would more readily say the official language of the church was Greek, not Latin.

The Church Christianized the vocabulary and grammar of the Greek scholar Cicero, whose moral code was adopted not only by the early fathers of the Church but by the Western civilization since then. The fact that it was also one of the languages of the cross and that it’s stable made it suitable for the western liturgy, which by the way included Greek and Hebrew as well. Latin in the Church was not just an accident or some token gesture to respect the Romans who killed Christ.

 

[clem456]

It’a also important to remember that the Church didn’t invent Latin, the language was already used in the dominant culture which the western Church began to flourish in. If the church had begun to flourish in China we’d be using Chinese at Mass. And this fact takes nothing away from the esteem we hold Latin in.
It’s a language with sacred usage in the Church but should not to be idolized.

 

[TimSpalding]

The Church Christianized the vocabulary and grammar of the Greek scholar Cicero, whose moral code was adopted not only by the early fathers of the Church but by the Western civilization since then. The fact that it was also one of the languages of the cross and that it’s stable made it suitable for the western liturgy, which by the way included Greek and Hebrew as well. Latin in the Church was not just an accident or some token gesture to respect the Romans who killed Christ.

I don’t know where to begin!

1. Cicero knew Greek, but he wrote in Latin.
2. Cicero became something of the normative source for high-class Latin. Jerome was a successor to that, and his other works are more Ciceronian in style, but his translation of the Bible, the Vulgate, owes very little to Cicero’s highly complex style, and is written in a far more accessible, “popular” Latin. (Someone who gets their Latin just up to reading the Gospels will find themselves completely unable to attempt the Catalines, and will realize this when they’re on the second page of the book, find themselves three levels down in subordinate clauses and still haven’t seen the verb!) The main stylistic influence on the Vulgate were previous Latin translations, which Jerome often more rewrote than retranslated, and the underlying grammar and style of the originals. Cicero would have regarded the Latin of the Vulgate as completely uncouth and foreign!
3. Cicero’s moral writings were greatly admired in antiquity and, like Plato and Aristotle in the east, were often spoken of by well-educated Christian theologians as models of pagan morality. But Western Christian morality, or that of Western Civilization, is hardly Cicero’s doing, still less did he give us our “code.” Cicero was not read at all in the Greek world, of course, which is also generally considered “Western Civilization.”
4. To my knowledge Hebrew has never been a liturgical language in the Christian world. Aramaic, through its close relative, Syriac, was and remains so. Of course Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Hebrew. The NT, and Greek authors generally, use the term “Hebrew” loosely to mean Aramaic, not Hebrew itself, so it’s possible—or even probable—that by Ἐβραϊστί John means Aramaic.
5. Latin became the language of the western liturgy because it was the language people spoke in the west, not because it was “stable” or appeared on the cross! Using the language of the people is why the Bible and liturgy ended up in practically every major language of the Mediterranean world—Greek, Latin, Syriac, Armenian, Georgian, Coptic, Gothic, Ge’ez, Arabic, Persian, even “Sauromatian” and “Scythian,” whatever was meant by those—often centuries before Jerome. The early and Late Antique church was all about the language people actually spoke. Latin was the main first or, where locals spoke but did not write another language, like Gaulish or Berber, the prestige second language of the western half of this world.

No other explanation is required. And for my part I can’t believe that, as the probably Latin-less St. Paul said, in Christ there is neither Jew, nor Greek, nor Scythian, but, well, they’d all better have a Latin mass.

 

[babochka]

As an aside, every cradle Catholic I know under the age of 40 has been raised with that sort of thing. It’s not just a Protestant thing anymore.

I’m not under 40, but I’m not far off. I was raised with the likes of “Peace is Flowing Like a River”. This contemporary Christian “rock music” and choruses rather than hymns are pretty new (within the last 10 years), and quite uncommon where I live.

As far as the concerns of the op, here’s my take:

I am Byzantine Catholic, but went to Roman Catholic school, so I had early experiences in the 1970s with both the Divine Liturgy and OF Mass. My experience with Masses were mostly school affairs and Holy Days of Obligation, so perhaps not your typical Sunday experience. Then I spent about 10 of my adult years at a Latin parish before deciding to return to my Byzantine parish. I greatly prefer the Divine Liturgy, which is in the vernacular (English in my case).

As a homeschooling mother, I know many who exclusively attend the EF, and many who don’t attend it exclusively, but greatly prefer it. I had my first experience with it about 15 years ago, when I attended midnight Mass with a date. It was ok. I felt like there was something wrong with me that I wasn’t just blown away. A few years later, I attended a low Mass, but by this point I had a couple of little ones and was not able to focus on anything but making sure they remained absolutely silent, which seems to be the culture of that parish. Over the years, I’ve had the opportunity to attend a few more Masses, but I’ve never been able to really immerse myself in the Mass because the number of little ones has now grown to 5. Last year, my oldest daughter and I were invited to a First Communion Mass. It was just me and the 9 year old, so I didn’t have to worry so much about misbehaving children and could really appreciate the Mass. For the first time in my handful of experiences, I had moments of really being swept with the worship of God. Maybe if I kept going, my appreciation for the EF would grow.

To compare, I’ll give you my husband’s impression of the Divine Liturgy. Our liturgy is in English. We have a picture of the pope in our vestibule. Still, we regularly have visitors walk out in the middle of the liturgy because they don’t think we’re Catholic. I first brought my husband to my parish while we were dating. Had it not been for my assurances, he’d have walked out, too. I can’t say he loved it. I don’t think he even particularly liked it. He was totally lost. I was a bit confused. How could he be lost? How could he not be swept away? How could he not think this was the most beautiful form of worship he’d ever seen? It seemed to simple to me. He told me that he had trouble figuring out what was going on. I guess it was because he hadn’t grown up with it. It was a “language” he didn’t speak and a way of relating to God that he had not experienced. After 12 years of marriage, he finally “gets” it. I think he even prefers it, but I can’t say for sure.

I guess what I’d say to the op is that it isn’t wrong or strange to not care for the Latin Mass. It is worthwhile to experience the Mass that is the heritage of the Roman rite of the church. For some people it might take more of an effort to appreciate. Some might never prefer it. If you’re interested, give it time and several experiences. Study ahead of time. I can understand how the language might be a barrier. For cradle Catholics, it is less so because the prayers of the Mass are so ingrained in us (in English), our hearts just know the prayers. Even if they are in Latin, they are inside of us. If I hear the Pater Noster, I know what is being prayed, even if I don’t understand the words. I don’t need to, because it is written on my heart. The same with the Gloria, etc.

 

[PJM]

=klm120861;10222406]I fully understand and appreciate the history of the Latin Mass. And I know I would enjoy observing one. But that’s the problem. It would only be an observation. I also know the Mass isn’t about me, or the laity. For me, I can’t join with the priest in offering myself as a gift back to God if I don’t comprehend what is going on. Maybe some can, but I’m just not “wired” that way. I can, and do, when I do understand. And I don’t want to wait to eventually come to some sort of comprehension of what’s going on.

For me, when I attend Mass, in a way I can’t explain, I am not just sitting in a pew. I am joined to the great liturgy of the ages. But it’s precisely because I can comprehend what is going on that I am able to do that.

I asked my questions because I see so many references to the EF and the OF and all of those initials and terms posters used and I had no clue what you were even talking about.
So I thought I’d ask.
Kris

OK! and GREAT

Your happy and staying close to Godin the OF so your “home free”.

I pray that you found the information you were seeking,

Continued Blessings,

pat/PJM

 

[ProVobis]

1. Latin became the language of the western liturgy because it was the language people spoke in the west, not because it was “stable” or appeared on the cross!

The Latin people spoke (Vulgar Latin) was not quite the same as Classical or Ecclesiastical Latin. Some of the differences were noted in Appendix Probi.

ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/appendix_probi.html

The language people spoke morphed its way into the Romance languages, whereas Classic and Ecclesiastical Latin have been essentially unchanged, except for maybe spaces and lower case letters added later.

1. Cicero’s moral writings were greatly admired in antiquity and, like Plato and Aristotle in the east, were often spoken of by well-educated Christian theologians as models of pagan morality. But Western Christian morality, or that of Western Civilization, is hardly Cicero’s doing, still less did he give us our “code.” Cicero was not read at all in the Greek world, of course, which is also generally considered “Western Civilization.”

I’m just going by what is said here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Officiis

stoics.com/why_stoics.html#WhyCicero

 

[klm120861]

I thought long and hard about answering this post, to try to describe things a bit better etc., but I decided against it. Your mind is clearly made up and no matter what any one else or I say about it you are not going to change your mind.

Oh and as far as anyone drawing a distinction between cradle Catholics and converts, that was you, not me.

I know you weren’t drawing a distinction, and that was part of the problem, because there is a distinction, at least in what converts know. What Cradle Catholics have absorbed over the course of their lives, we, at best, have tried to cram into our minds/lives in a very short amount of time. We often feel out of place because we simply haven’t had time to learn something yet.
The first (and only) time I attended a Catholic burial, I felt lost because everyone knew the prayers, etc. and I didn’t know any of them, even though I had been a Catholic for several years at that point. I just had never had the reason to learn the prayers for the dead. I didn’t know there were specific prayers that would be said that everyone else would have memorized over their lifetime. Next time I’ll make sure I know the prayers before hand.

There are a lot of things like that, and that’s where the distinction comes in. The first time I attended a daily Mass I also felt a little lost because some of the responses were different from what we do at Sunday Mass. After a while, I got more comfortable. It’s the same with the EF. I’m not opposed to attending one eventually, but before I do, I need to know more about it, what to say when (and how the words are pronounced and what they translate to in English) so that I can participate when I go, instead of focusing on trying to pronounce the words right. I hope that makes sense.
Kris

 

[klm120861]

For cradle Catholics, it is less so because the prayers of the Mass are so ingrained in us (in English), our hearts just know the prayers. Even if they are in Latin, they are inside of us. If I hear the Pater Noster, I know what is being prayed, even if I don’t understand the words. I don’t need to, because it is written on my heart. The same with the Gloria, etc.

That’s it, exactly. And if I hear the Pater Noster, at least I know enough to know it’s the same as the “Our Father”, and we sing the Sanctus during Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter, so I know that’s the “Holy, Holy, Holy”. It’s all the rest I don’t know. Yet. When I do, I would like to attend an EF Mass at least once, just to see what’s it’s like. (Learning Latin is on my “to do” list, someday when I have the time.

I know it’s off topic, but God bless you for homeschooling your kids. I homeschooled my son until March of last year when 9th grade algebra got the better of me. I can’t imagine homeschooling 5 kids. One was hard enough!
Kris

 

[ProVobis]

I’m not opposed to attending one eventually, but before I do, I need to know more about it, what to say when (and how the words are pronounced and what they translate to in English) so that I can participate when I go, instead of focusing on trying to pronounce the words right. I hope that makes sense.
Kris

You don’t need to respond. Some EF’s will allow some response such as “Et cum spiritu tuo” but you certainly don’t need to be conscious of how Latin words should be pronounced. BTW, as there are very few silent letters in Latin, pronunciation isn’t that difficult.

 

[tjones80]

This may seem like a strange question, but what is an EF Mass? Is that the same as the Tridentene (I probably spelled that wrong) Mass? Is that the Mass that’s in Latin? How much of the Mass is in Latin? What if you don’t understand Latin? (My Latin is limited to what little I sang in my public school’s classical choir back in the '70’s, which means we did an Agnus Dei and a Dona Nobis Pachem and Adeste Fidelis).

The reason I ask is because I have only been a Catholic for 8 years. The churches I was raised in would never sing anything in Latin because that was too Catholic.

Honestly, if the Mass had still been in Latin, it’s more than likely neither my brother, nor my parents, and certainly not myself and my family, ever would have converted. How could I worship without understand what was being said?

Thanks for the info!
Kris

Extra-ordinary Form mass. The Latin Mass.

 

[klm120861]

You don’t need to respond. Some EF’s will allow some response such as “Et cum spiritu tuo” but you certainly don’t need to be conscious of how Latin words should be pronounced. BTW, as there are very few silent letters in Latin, pronunciation isn’t that difficult.

I think “Et cum spiritu tuo” means “And with your spirit?” I got that from the “spiritu” part - I know that means “spirit” but as for the rest of the phrase, I’m just guessing.
Kris

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think “Et cum spiritu tuo” means “And with your spirit?” I got that from the “spiritu” part - I know that means “spirit” but as for the rest of the phrase, I’m just guessing.
Kris

Et=and cum=with spiritu=spirit tuo=your

 

[TimSpalding]

Extra-ordinary Form mass. The Latin Mass.

With respect, the current, ordinary, regular, contemporary, 99%-of-the-time mass, also known as the “ordinary form” or “Novus Ordo” can also be said in Latin, which is, of course, the language from which the others are translated. Doing the Novus Ordo in Latin in the US is by no means unheard of, although it has declined somewhat in favor of the Tridentine rite, since Benedict XVI decided to remove from Bishops the authority to offer or not offer the Tridentine Rite within their dioceses.