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friardchips
Guest
Quite a clever way of putting it.
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How can He forgive you if you don’t want it?
This would be like the prodigal son.
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friardchips
Guest
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
Before I answer your humanly limited model, I propose another one. There was a man in the deep end of a swimming pool. Nobody really knows for sure how it came to be, but he started behaving in a way that threatened his life. He quit keeping his head above the water. Not only that, but he thrashed around and made noise. Surely he was intent on leaving the atmosphere because he wanted to die by drowning, or why else would he not have just kept swimming or treading water or stayed in the boat or used a life jacket or whatever he must have been doing his entire life until right now?
The lifeguard sees the struggle and concludes, “the man clearly does not want to be saved because he is in a mental way that by my observation wouldn’t accept my help anyway,” and remains seated while the man drowns.
Maybe if we’re going to try to outguess Gd by using human logic, a man drowning is a little closer to the severity level of what we’re talking about, than just whether some person wants to come into our house for Afternoon Tea. “Oh dear I don’t think I can make it today maybe another time?”
We’re talking about the author of time itself, and He who gave us the brains to even notice that there is such a thing as time, Internet, and fuzzy kittens. Even by your inviting into the door" analogy, isn’t that to say that Gd has no say-so over what happens to my eternal soul, based on my state of mind at a single point in time, which I may or may not know is the last of my life at the time I experience it? And the mercy of Jesus is not sufficient to overcome that particular situation? If that’s what you’re saying then that fits with your original assertion.
MS
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Mystical_Seeker
Guest
How could Jesus forgive those crucifying Him? Did they all repent before His request to the Father could be fulfilled?
We can’t say if it is like the prodigal son situation, because the story doesn’t say whether the father would have forgiven the son unconditionally, if the son hadn’t repented. The prodigal son only gives an example where repentance did occur. But notice the father came out to meet the son; as far as the father knew at the time, the son was coming back to curse the father or kill his brother. Did the father wait until the son apologized?
But if we say it’s like the prodigal son and combine this with the “front door” model, then if a person doesn’t want to come or doesn’t know where the door is and I’m the Good Host, I should go out there and meet them. Kind of like the Good Shepherd who leaves the flock to find the lost sheep not just say “sorry that sheep knows where we are so what can we do if it wants to stray?”
Let’s see how it reads:
Luke 15:20b
“While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him, and was filled with compassion. He ran to his son, embraced him and kissed him.”
It would seem that the compassion preceded the physical act of the son confessing to his father. That’s how cool I think God is; I think He already still loves us and forgives us before we apologize.
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
… or you’re right. I’m not planning on finding out. 
C
Charles_Drake
Guest
By your argument what place does repentance play? If what you are saying is true then would you not be able to do what you want, when and how you want with no repercussion? After all you said God has forgiven you in advance. Or did I completely misunderstand?
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detoutcoeur
Guest
Yes, and this was the heart of it for me:
*Later on he notes that Jesus conferred the power of forgiving sins on the apostles and they transmitted it to the Church. "But this power granted to men presupposes and includes the saving action of the Holy Spirit": the purifying of consciences, which makes it possible for man “to call good and evil by their proper name”. *
In this perspective, the words of “unforgiveness” of Jesus are understood, applied to “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, which "consists in the refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit." *
"‘Non-forgiveness’ is linked, as to its cause, to ‘non-repentance’, in other words to the radical refusal to be converted. This means the refusal to come to the sources of Redemption, which nevertheless remain ‘always’ open in the economy of salvation in which the mission of the Holy Spirit is accomplished." *
**
catholic-pages.com/documents/dominum_et_vivificantem-summary.asp
Catechism
2843 Thus the Lord’s words on forgiveness, the love that loves to the end, become a living reality. The parable of the merciless servant, which crowns the Lord’s teaching on ecclesial communion, ends with these words: “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” It is there, in fact, “in the depths of the heart,” that everything is bound and loosed. It is not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense; but the heart that offers itself to the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.
2843 Thus the Lord’s words on forgiveness, the love that loves to the end, become a living reality. The parable of the merciless servant, which crowns the Lord’s teaching on ecclesial communion, ends with these words: “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” It is there, in fact, “in the depths of the heart,” that everything is bound and loosed. It is not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense; but the heart that offers itself to the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
My argument is not about whether a person is “worthy” of hell, but that God’s options are not limited to the constraints of any formula I can articulate in human language.
I think it’s very short-sighted to say that if a person does X, where “X” is something we can objectively describe using human language, that it binds God by giving Him no options other than letting the person suffer eternally.
To make that claim is to put God into a box that human beings are capable of describing.
MS
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
For anyone who thinks they know the mind or the limitations of God, I offer the reading assignment suggested by my SD on our first meeting. :bible1:
He said that as a technical person, trying to understand about God with my academic orientation, I should start by reading Job 37-42.
For someone who says, “if I do this then I am doomed and there is nothing God can do about it even if He wanted to because I made my choice,” it could be interesting reading. If God can and will condescend to become human flesh and suffer and die to bring us to His Father’s loving arms, I think He may know of a few “strings” that He can pull on our behalf, that we may not know about.
He said that as a technical person, trying to understand about God with my academic orientation, I should start by reading Job 37-42.
For someone who says, “if I do this then I am doomed and there is nothing God can do about it even if He wanted to because I made my choice,” it could be interesting reading. If God can and will condescend to become human flesh and suffer and die to bring us to His Father’s loving arms, I think He may know of a few “strings” that He can pull on our behalf, that we may not know about.
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friardchips
Guest
What Jesus said in the Bible, Jesus said in the Bible. There have been various posts stating the order of things. Pope Benedict did say that those who, after having died might have approached the Sacrament of Reconciliation if they had known about it, could be saved - which probably accounts for quite a few. Other than that you have what is written in the Bible and the teaching of the Church, which is binding, so all the more reason for the Church to see in its very mission-statement the need to go and live the gospel so that others might be led closer towards knowledge of the Sacraments.
C
Charles_Drake
Guest
Your argument goes completely against Cardinal Sin. At the time of death if God is going to forgive us of our sins, those we repented of and those we did not, the, what is the point of reconciliation? Granted God can do what he wants but are we not obligated to do what he says to obtain Heaven?For anyone who thinks they know the mind or the limitations of God, I offer the reading assignment suggested by my SD on our first meeting. :bible1:
He said that as a technical person, trying to understand about God with my academic orientation, I should start by reading Job 37-42.
For someone who says, “if I do this then I am doomed and there is nothing God can do about it even if He wanted to because I made my choice,” it could be interesting reading. If God can and will condescend to become human flesh and suffer and die to bring us to His Father’s loving arms, I think He may know of a few “strings” that He can pull on our behalf, that we may not know about.
V
Vico
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
Baltimore Catechism No. 3Q. 433. What are the sins against the Holy Ghost which Our Lord said will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next?
A. The sins against the Holy Ghost which Our Lord said will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next, are sins committed out of pure malice, and greatly opposed to the mercy of God, and are, therefore, seldom forgiven.
326. Which are the six sins against the Holy Spirit?
The * Six Sins Against the Holy Spirit Are:*
*]Presumption
*]Despair
*]Resisting the Known Truth
*]Envy of Another’s Spiritual Good
*]Obstinacy in Sin
*]Final Impenitence
Penny Catechism: catholictreasury.info/catechism/cat25.php
Dominum et Vivacantum, St. Pope John Paul II, item 46: 46. Against the background of what has been said so far, certain other words of Jesus, shocking and disturbing ones, become easier to understand. We might call them the words of “unforgiveness”. They are reported for us by the Synoptic in connection with a particular sin which is called “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”. This is how they are reported in their three versions: Matthew: “Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”. [180] Mark: “All sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”. [181] Luke: “Every one who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven”. [182]
Why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit unforgivable? How should this blasphemy be understood? Saint Thomas Aquinas replies that it is a question of a sin that is "unforgivable by its very nature, insofar as it excludes the elements through which the forgiveness of sin takes place. [183]
According to such an exegesis, “blasphemy” does not properly consist in offending against the Holy Spirit in words; it consists rather in the refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit, working through the power of the Cross. If man rejects the " convincing concerning sin" which comes from the Holy Spirit and which has the power to save, he also rejects the “coming” of the Counsellor – that “coming” which was accomplished in the Paschal Mystery, in union with the redemptive power of Christ’s Blood: the Blood which “purifies the conscience from dead works”.
We know that the result of such a purification is the forgiveness of sins. Therefore, whoever rejects the Spirit and the Blood remains in “dead works”, in sin. And the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit consists precisely in the radical refusal to accept this forgiveness of which he is the intimate giver and which presupposes the genuine conversion which he brings about in the conscience. If Jesus says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven either in this life or in the next, it is because this “non-forgiveness” is linked, as to its cause, to “non-repentance”, in other words to the radical refusal to be converted. This means the refusal to come to the sources of Redemption, which nevertheless remain “always” open in the economy of salvation in which the mission of the Holy Spirit is accomplished. The Spirit has infinite power to draw from these sources: “he will take what is mine”, Jesus said. In this way he brings to completion in human souls the work of the Redemption accomplished by Christ, and distributes its fruits. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then, is the sin committed by the person who claims to have a “right” to persist in evil – in any sin at all – and who thus rejects Redemption. One closes oneself up in sin, thus making impossible one’s conversion, and consequently the remission of sins, which one considers not essential or not important for one’s life. This is a state of spiritual ruin, because blasphemy against the Holy Spirit does not allow one to escape from one’s self-imposed imprisonment and open oneself to the divine sources of the purification of consciences and of the remission of sins.
W
Worlds
Guest
Based on what you said, I’m afraid I might have done this. On a few occasions I’ve been jealous of other peoples spiritual good, and was frustrated that I wasn’t in a good spot like they were. I don’t think I was purposely intending to be evil though, it was just a natural reaction- certainly not a good reaction, but not intentional. But based on what you said- and please correct me if I am wrong- the unforgivable sin is any one of those sins you mentioned, with the concious decision to oppose The Lord, and with full knowledge of the gravity of its nature. I honestly hope I haven’t commited it though.
V
Vico
Guest
Those particular sins are malice (this is deliberate but could be through negligence – see 1791). Since mortal sins are grave sins that are freely chosen with sufficient reflection and awareness of their sinful character. If continued freely chosen, once becoming aware of an error in judgment, it would be deliberate. The sources of objective sin are ignorance, passion, and malice, and these particular sins are of malice. Sometimes people do objective grave sins without awareness. 1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.**
1791** This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church).
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
OK guys, you win. If I do a certain thing, then not even God Himself can save me because I have Taken it Out of His Hands.
Seems kind of arrogant to me to say what God can or cannot do based on our human understand of Him, but you all probably think I’m arrogant for not believing that God is limited in the way you say. So I guess we’re even.
W
Worlds
Guest
On 1793, what does it mean by “the ignorance is invincible”? What would be the circumstances for this to take place? Also, on 1791, it mentions “when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of commiting sin”- isn’t that just concupisence? And if it is, doesn’t everyone already have that? Thanks so much for your help! God bless!
W
Worlds
Guest
Guys, let’s not get worked up over thisOK guys, you win. If I do a certain thing, then not even God Himself can save me because I have Taken it Out of His Hands.
Seems kind of arrogant to me to say what God can or cannot do based on our human understand of Him, but you all probably think I’m arrogant for not believing that God is limited in the way you say. So I guess we’re even.
Remember to keep Christ’s teachings in mind and be patient with each other, even if you don’t agree on the same subject [BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
Guys, let’s not get worked up over this
I must have figured that if I threw a tantrum, everyone would take notice and recognize how right I am.
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