What gives us the right to interfere with secular laws?

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Recently in Brazil same-sex unions have been legalised despite condemnation from the Catholic Church -

bbc.co.uk/news/world-13304442

This thread is not a news thread, it is only using the above story as an example.

While reading the comments, I notice one person had posted this below the story -

“Why is the Catholic Church trying to interfere with secular unions? Do they think non-Catholics have a similar right to interfere with Catholic sacraments?”

What is everyone’s opinion on this? If we believe we have a right to campaign against secular laws including civil partnerships, does that mean it is okay for non-Catholics to start telling us how to apply our religious rules e.g. the Catechism?

Let’s say that there was a group of Catholics campaigning for same-sex marriage to be outlawed. Would it then be fair for a group of non-Catholics to campaign for Catholics to be forced to allow same-sex marriages?

Or -

Let’s say Catholics successfully managed to campaign for same-sex marriage to be made illegal, would it then be fair if non-Catholics successfully managed to campaign for Catholic Churches to be forced to marry any heterosexual couple, whether they are Catholic or not? If not, why not?

After all, we are interfering in the “secular” world by campaigning against a law, so why can’t secular people interfere in our religious world by campaigning against our “rules”?

Essentially, this thread is about the concept of religious freedom versus freedom of living how you choose, and telling other people/attempting to force people to live how you want them to.
 
It seems this person doesn’t understand the **purpose **of civil laws. Think on that.
 
Civil laws that give rights and license to abnormal sexual behavior (male on male and female on female sexual acts) increase the acceptance of this abnormality.
 
LemonAndLime said:
Recently in Brazil same-sex unions have been legalised despite condemnation from the Catholic Church -

bbc.co.uk/news/world-13304442

This thread is not a news thread, it is only using the above story as an example.

While reading the comments, I notice one person had posted this below the story -

“Why is the Catholic Church trying to interfere with secular unions? Do they think non-Catholics have a similar right to interfere with Catholic sacraments?”

What is everyone’s opinion on this? If we believe we have a right to campaign against secular laws including civil partnerships, does that mean it is okay for non-Catholics to start telling us how to apply our religious rules e.g. the Catechism?

Let’s say that there was a group of Catholics campaigning for same-sex marriage to be outlawed. Would it then be fair for a group of non-Catholics to campaign for Catholics to be forced to allow same-sex marriages?

Or -

Let’s say Catholics successfully managed to campaign for same-sex marriage to be made illegal, would it then be fair if non-Catholics successfully managed to campaign for Catholic Churches to be forced to marry any heterosexual couple, whether they are Catholic or not? If not, why not?

After all, we are interfering in the “secular” world by campaigning against a law, so why can’t secular people interfere in our religious world by campaigning against our “rules”?

Essentially, this thread is about the concept of religious freedom versus freedom of living how you choose, and telling other people/attempting to force people to live how you want them to.
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One should make an objective stance- Catholic Church is not trying to interfere with secular laws. It is simply giving her part to the discussion whether something is moral or not. As every other person or organization can. In secular society with liberal background, it is possible to allow homosexual marriages, but Church won’t be asked to preform a sacramental ritual to such couple. Such situation is probably not the best for our religion, but none can accuse us of doing something illegal or morally unacceptable.
 
As a Catholic, you should want laws that uphold the teachings of the Church. This thinking automatically throws many people into a rage. We are called to live and practice our faith. Is that imposing our faith on others? Maybe. Maybe not. Therefore, by Catholics living their faith and letting that faith guide their decisions in life, it should not be misconstrued as interfering. If you truly are Catholic and live the faith, you can’t have it both ways. I am assuming that you are referring to civil laws. Our faith should guide us on who we vote for, how we vote on civil proposals and so forth. Our concerns on issues that go against are faith should most certainly be voiced. It is our world to live in. What do we want it to be?
 
GRATEFULONEjim said:
As a Catholic, you should want laws that uphold the teachings of the Church. This thinking automatically throws many people into a rage. We are called to live and practice our faith. Is that imposing our faith on others? Maybe. Maybe not. Therefore, by Catholics living their faith and letting that faith guide their decisions in life, it should not be misconstrued as interfering. If you truly are Catholic and live the faith, you can’t have it both ways. I am assuming that you are referring to civil laws. Our faith should guide us on who we vote for, how we vote on civil proposals and so forth. Our concerns on issues that go against are faith should most certainly be voiced. It is our world to live in. What do we want it to be?
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I completely agree with you. I would use my faith as a guide for who I vote for indeed. The comment on the news story prompted me to think about this, hence why I have asked for people’s thoughts.
 
LemonAndLime:God’s law trumps secular laws.If a secular law if passed which all must obey A Catholic is not allowed to obey that secular law.If you are forced to pay for abortion,if a Catholic doctor has to preform abortions to practice medicine,if adoption adjencies are forced to allow gay couples to adopt children or close down it is a Catholic obligation not to follow those laws.Secular laws are in reality anti-God laws.They aren’t promoted as such but if fact they are evil and in defience of God.The same way that German’s had a responsibility to fight against Nazi proganda and vote against any laws which were against God and human dignity we today have to oppose this secular societies laws which are becoming more and more prevalent.The Catholic Church draws very distinct lines between what is moral and lawfrul and what isn’t.
 
LemonAndLime said:
“Why is the Catholic Church trying to interfere with secular unions? Do they think non-Catholics have a similar right to interfere with Catholic sacraments?”

What is everyone’s opinion on this? If we believe we have a right to campaign against secular laws including civil partnerships, does that mean it is okay for non-Catholics to start telling us how to apply our religious rules e.g. the Catechism?

Let’s say that there was a group of Catholics campaigning for same-sex marriage to be outlawed. Would it then be fair for a group of non-Catholics to campaign for Catholics to be forced to allow same-sex marriages?

Or -

Let’s say Catholics successfully managed to campaign for same-sex marriage to be made illegal, would it then be fair if non-Catholics successfully managed to campaign for Catholic Churches to be forced to marry any heterosexual couple, whether they are Catholic or not? If not, why not?

After all, we are interfering in the “secular” world by campaigning against a law, so why can’t secular people interfere in our religious world by campaigning against our “rules”?

Essentially, this thread is about the concept of religious freedom versus freedom of living how you choose, and telling other people/attempting to force people to live how you want them to.
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The simple answer is that all Catholics are part of the secular society, but not all of secular society is Catholic. So that part that is Catholic get a say in how secular laws are instituted. The Church certainly has a voice in the debate over laws but ultimately the Church doesn’t have any secular power.

Secular society does have the power to force the Church to follow certain practices within a particular country, but good luck getting the followers to go along with it.

Lucky for us in the US we have the Constitution which prevents the government from infringing on religious beliefs.
 
LemonAndLime said:
Let’s say Catholics successfully managed to campaign for same-sex marriage to be made illegal, would it then be fair if non-Catholics successfully managed to campaign for Catholic Churches to be forced to marry any heterosexual couple, whether they are Catholic or not? If not, why not?

After all, we are interfering in the “secular” world by campaigning against a law, so why can’t secular people interfere in our religious world by campaigning against our “rules”?

Essentially, this thread is about the concept of religious freedom versus freedom of living how you choose, and telling other people/attempting to force people to live how you want them to.
Click to expand...
Actually you are mixing two different things here.
What you are refering to as “secular law” is actually “civil law” that binds upon All the citizens of a particular political entity.
The Catechism is not binding on any except those who freely chose to embrace it by becoming Catholic. Likewise other groups, religious, social, cultural, political, business, fraternal, might bind together and promote or oppose certain views, ideas, etc that are proposed by the civil authorites. Each of these groups, including Catholics, have the right to petition, to vote, to speak, and to be heard, on these matters.

So the question is really trying to compare aples to oranges.

Peace
James
 
I think you are confused about how civil laws work. I understand you live in the UK, but I will use a US example. Here laws are supposed to represent the will of the people, to protect and order society. Thus if it is the peoples will to order society to not recognize same sex marriages because they are not beneficial to society, then they are completely able to do so, no matter what interest group it is.

Catholics believe the same sex marriage is harmful to society, and Catholics working to make this not happen in society is that same as any other interest group working to pass or block laws. They are pointing out why particular law are either a good idea or a bad idea and trying to get lawmakers and the public to agree. Just like the NRA (national rifle association) tries to sway politicians and the public on their view of the 2nd amendment and gun ownership, and Planned Parenthood tries to get abortion laws passed or block laws that take away their federal funding.
 
I’m not sure if this is the same thing or not, but I see some political activity as attempts to legislate morality. God gave man free will, and legislating morality seems to be trying to do what God has not/will not do Himself; that is force people to comply with what the Church knows His will to be.

What the Church knows His will to be varies, according to each individual’s part in the hierarchy of the Body of Christ, in my own personal opinion.

This does not exempt us of participation in the secular aspects of political, but it would limit us on how we approach participation. By voting, we are being examples of what He calls us to be. The hard part seems to be fully participating with a genuine love being expressed, with what I’ve witnessed political ‘discussions’ being like.

I see the Christ’s kingdom as the final/everlasting government that Christians are first obligated to. Our king didn’t force the secular world, nor did He command it be forced when He sent out the men He chose and appointed. He taught the changing of hearts and minds through love, as He loved us.
 
I agree with what everyone is saying about how Catholics have a right to (name removed by moderator)ut on civil law.

Only one poster however has directly addressed the question about whether non-Catholics have a right to (name removed by moderator)ut on Catholic rules which could affect them - e.g. where you can get married. What do you think about that?
 
LemonAndLime said:
Only one poster however has directly addressed the question about whether non-Catholics have a right to (name removed by moderator)ut on Catholic rules which could affect them - e.g. where you can get married. What do you think about that?
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Individual Catholics don’t have a right to (name removed by moderator)ut their opinion concerning Catholic rules.

Why would the Catholic Church then - listen to non-Catholics about what they do or don’t want?

The Catholic Church is not a democracy, or a republic.
 
Barbkw said:
Individual Catholics don’t have a right to (name removed by moderator)ut their opinion concerning Catholic rules.

Why would the Catholic Church then - listen to non-Catholics about what they do or don’t want?
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I’m not asking about whether the Catholic Church should listen to them, I’m asking whether you think that it would be fair for the reverse to happen.
 
Barbkw said:
Restate your question please.
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As I posted above. Do you think that if Catholics have a right to an (name removed by moderator)ut in civil laws, do you believe it would be fair for non-Catholics to have an (name removed by moderator)ut on Catholic rules?
 
LemonAndLime said:
As I posted above. Do you think that if Catholics have a right to an (name removed by moderator)ut in civil laws, do you believe it would be fair for non-Catholics to have an (name removed by moderator)ut on Catholic rules?
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I answered that and you dismissed my answer.
Individual Catholics don’t have a right to (name removed by moderator)ut their opinion concerning Catholic rules. Why would the Catholic Church then - listen to non-Catholics about what they do or don’t want? The Catholic Church is not a democracy, or a republic.
Click to expand...
 
LemonAndLime said:
As I posted above. Do you think that if Catholics have a right to an (name removed by moderator)ut in civil laws, do you believe it would be fair for non-Catholics to have an (name removed by moderator)ut on Catholic rules?
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Google Massachusetts, adoption and Catholic and see what you find.

Peace

Tim
 
LemonAndLime said:
I’m not asking about whether the Catholic Church should listen to them, I’m asking whether you think that it would be fair for the reverse to happen.
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Again, it seems you are confused about civil law. Civil law serves a specific purpose, which all people within that territory or its citizen even outside its territory are subject to. In democracies or republics the people can vote to have society be the way they want. The Church is neither of those forms of government and people do not vote or even have the laws be of their will, but rather the will of God. Church law and practices are only applicable to those who wish them to apply, thus if one doesn’t like how the church does things, one merely chooses for them not apply (you don’t even have to move or denounce citizenship. Surely you can perceive the difference?
 
Orogeny said:
Google Massachusetts, adoption and Catholic and see what you find.
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Sounds like the Church will be forced to eventually stop providing adoption services nationwide. Unfortuneate, but neccessary.
 
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