Yes, there is. You might not want to admit it but there is. And believe me that 20% is usually pretty proud of the fact that they are in that 20% and I wouldn’t be surprised if that wasn’t one of the main reasons they are there in the first place, judging by many I’ve seen over the years…
Agreed:thumbsup:Duly noted - and just mine as well
Oh, yeah, since VII we have rushed in the millions to be Holy, right? Yes, the lasty 4O years have been a “Springtime”
haven’t we?All the reasons I have seen (by taking part in various ministries) comes form a sense of parish community and parish hospitality towards others. They are using their talents in the ways that Vatican II opened the doors to them to partake in.
Oh, you’re saying we fall short of perfection. I didn’t realize that had only happened since Vatican II. Dumb old me thought it started with Adam and Eve.Oh, yeah, since VII we have rushed in the millions to be Holy, right? Yes, the lasty 4O years have been a “Springtime”
in the Church for sure. We have been eating the “fruits” of VII, haven’
I’m going to say the oposite and say the good that came out of VII was a true appreciation of the Latin Mass. Those who are in the Latin Mass are truly thankful to be there, they are not forced to be there nor are those who are in the vernacular Masses forced to be how they worship.
Your somewhat snide response doesn’t surprise me in the least. Are you one of the 20% and would you like to be more involved?
He was a big proponent of Lifeteen Masses and always had a good crowd of young people, particularly young girls, hanging around him.It takes guts to say that. Many are living in a world of their own construction. They are really afraid to admit the truth about what is really going on. They live in a world where there is no “crisis of faith”, because if they saw the true state of things something would have to be “wrong with the Council”, or wrong with Church leaders----and it is **these people, coincedently, **who think that VII was totally and completely infallible. We all know it was an authoritative, valid Coucil, but infallible it was not. There is no need to hide under a blanket, and “hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil” about VII and the Church after it. Fanciful hallucinations about how great VII was or how the crisis has nothing to do with those who have power in the Church, are not necessary to hold on to the Faith. It is the faith that tells us that VII was not infallible, and neither are it’s leaders.Your somewhat snide response doesn’t surprise me in the least. Are you one of the 20% and would you like to be more involved?
How condescending. But not at all surprising.
I have been a catechist for years and years, over twenty to be precise, and I have had to fight with DRE’s every step of the way just to present lessons that focus on anything other than,
Just remember God always loves you. Where entire classes became nothing more than coffee clatches where the main topic of discussion was whose husband or boyfriend or wife or girlfriend had been cheating or worse. Or perhaps the memorable night when the DRE, The Deacon three other instructors and about four of the power elite in the Church showed up at my class to take the candidates to a Charismatic service at a local pentecostal evangelical church because the Spirit was really touching them over there and that was more important.
They wanted minimal taught of the faith preferring to say that the Church had made mistakes in the past but was now open to all and judged no one as in the past. Doctrine meant not as much as love for each other and respect and acceptance of all, no matter what they did or how they lived their lives. The candidates and catechumen came to me often, explaining that I had been wrong in what I had taught them. The DRE had told them so. Of course when confronted the DRE denied these things saying the “newbies” had misunderstood her.
I have had to argue mightily with the self appointed guardians of the faith, the Extraordinary Ministers who take it upon themselves to commune themselves and their partners, both married and domestic, before the Priests because after all we are a priestly people correct? And as such, they didn’t have to wait for some Priest to do anything really, not if it was holding them up.
I have had ushers, ushers mind you, tell my non baptized pupils that I was wrong for teaching them that to receive Holy Communion they were to be Baptized Catholics in a state of grace and of the right intention and encouraging them, indeed almost pulling them out of their seats so that they could go receive from their, the ushers wives or lovers or girlfriends or whoever else was up there that day because not enough were in attendance to justify having 10-15 of them standing around the Sanctuary basically doing nothing.
I saw good solid orthodox priests beaten down by the liturgy committees who critiqued their homilies after Mass and threatened to report them to the Bishop if the homilies didn’t represent what THEY thought was important and relevant to the community, which they as the self appointed spokespersons for decided was correct. In fact, the chairperson of this group often wrote her own homilies and gave them to the Priest and was enraged if he changed them or preached something else. One elderly Priest, a very solid man practically begged the music director to play the Regina Coeli and Holy God We Praise Thy Name during a Mass being offered for his, the Priests deceased mother, as she had always loved the songs. The Director laughed at him and said the days of those songs was long over and that no one would even know them or even listen to them. So he refused to play them.
I saw a Deacon, instruct my pupils that there was no such thing as Hell or even a judgement, because a loving God, which we have, would never allow any of his children to suffer eternal torment and anyone and anything who said differently was a Nazi.
So you can talk all you want. You can say that in your parish it isn’t like that, that yours is orthodox and good. Great:thumbsup: . I’m happy for you. I’m glad that there are places where there are those who respect the Church and her teachings. Keep it that way, please.
But don’t think for a minute that my experience with these people is unique or rare. It happens all too often…
Oh and lest you think differently,these experiences were not tied to one parish or even one region of the country.
It has also led to more questioning of what has happened with the church since Vatican II, the result being more Catholics are experiencing more indepth learning about the truths of our faith than was visible before the Council. I, for one, feel much more freedom in asking questions about the Catholic Church, the whys and wherefores than I did in fourteen years of formal Catholic education.I think while in some areas a good thing it has been disasterous in others. For example, catechisis.
Almost all catechisis is now done by lay people, a great many who apparently really don’t have a grasp on what they are teaching. The whole emphasis in many areas is focus on love love love and let everything else go. As my old DRE used to say
DONT BORE THEM WITH DOCTRINE COVER THEM WITH LOVE
Such an approach cannot be good for the faith and has led directly to generations who don’t know the faith at all, but think they do. And that is frightening in the extreme
It has also led to a heirarchy if you will in the Parishes with the involved feeling that they occupy a higher level than those who are not so involved. And they in many cases tend to lord over the others in the Parish. The tremendously self important and self righteous attitudes of the multitudes of Extraordinary Ministers, Ushers, why do we even need ushers in the first place, can someone explain that?. come to mind right off the bat and lets not forget the Liturgical Committees
The Vatican had been pushing for the laity to become more familiar with Scripture long before anyone even thought of Vatican II, so I don’t think the Council should rightfully get creditt for that.
No I think overall the increased involvement of the laity has come at far too great a price overall.
Just my opinion.
I think while in some areas a good thing it has been disasterous in others. For example, catechisis.
Almost all catechisis is now done by lay people, a great many who apparently really don’t have a grasp on what they are teaching. The whole emphasis in many areas is focus on love love love and let everything else go. As my old DRE used to say
DONT BORE THEM WITH DOCTRINE COVER THEM WITH LOVE
Such an approach cannot be good for the faith and has led directly to generations who don’t know the faith at all, but think they do. And that is frightening in the extreme
It has also led to a heirarchy if you will in the Parishes with the involved feeling that they occupy a higher level than those who are not so involved. And they in many cases tend to lord over the others in the Parish. The tremendously self important and self righteous attitudes of the multitudes of Extraordinary Ministers, Ushers, why do we even need ushers in the first place, can someone explain that?. come to mind right off the bat and lets not forget the Liturgical Committees
The Vatican had been pushing for the laity to become more familiar with Scripture long before anyone even thought of Vatican II, so I don’t think the Council should rightfully get creditt for that.
No I think overall the increased involvement of the laity has come at far too great a price overall.
Just my opinion.
Why is it then, that since Vatican II everywhere I have gone to Mass in the U.S, the Mass is said in English. Not only the vernacular here in the States, but in Mexico too, or also in U.S Mexican neighborhoods where Mass is said, we hear Spainish.
Nice spin of “But” to show that all Masses should be in English.
(very sarcastic)It seems to me that too much is made concerning V2 and some supposed destruction of holiness and that pre-council times were some pastoral garden where everybody was properly catechized and went to mass every Sunday.Oh, yeah, since VII we have rushed in the millions to be Holy, right? Yes, the lasty 4O years have been a “Springtime”
in the Church for sure. We have been eating the “fruits” of VII, haven’
Yes.
God is so good.With those experiences it’s no surprise you feel the way you do. I found that in the70’s and 80’s the religious education materials were definitely deficient in doctrine and the classes were all about feel-good love and some social action. I think the materials are much better now.Your somewhat snide response doesn’t surprise me in the least. Are you one of the 20% and would you like to be more involved?
How condescending. But not at all surprising.
I have been a catechist for years and years, over twenty to be precise, and I have had to fight with DRE’s every step of the way just to present lessons that focus on anything other than,
Just remember God always loves you. Where entire classes became nothing more than coffee clatches where the main topic of discussion was whose husband or boyfriend or wife or girlfriend had been cheating or worse. Or perhaps the memorable night when the DRE, The Deacon three other instructors and about four of the power elite in the Church showed up at my class to take the candidates to a Charismatic service at a local pentecostal evangelical church because the Spirit was really touching them over there and that was more important.
They wanted minimal taught of the faith preferring to say that the Church had made mistakes in the past but was now open to all and judged no one as in the past. Doctrine meant not as much as love for each other and respect and acceptance of all, no matter what they did or how they lived their lives. The candidates and catechumen came to me often, explaining that I had been wrong in what I had taught them. The DRE had told them so. Of course when confronted the DRE denied these things saying the “newbies” had misunderstood her.
I have had to argue mightily with the self appointed guardians of the faith, the Extraordinary Ministers who take it upon themselves to commune themselves and their partners, both married and domestic, before the Priests because after all we are a priestly people correct? And as such, they didn’t have to wait for some Priest to do anything really, not if it was holding them up.
I have had ushers, ushers mind you, tell my non baptized pupils that I was wrong for teaching them that to receive Holy Communion they were to be Baptized Catholics in a state of grace and of the right intention and encouraging them, indeed almost pulling them out of their seats so that they could go receive from their, the ushers wives or lovers or girlfriends or whoever else was up there that day because not enough were in attendance to justify having 10-15 of them standing around the Sanctuary basically doing nothing.
I saw good solid orthodox priests beaten down by the liturgy committees who critiqued their homilies after Mass and threatened to report them to the Bishop if the homilies didn’t represent what THEY thought was important and relevant to the community, which they as the self appointed spokespersons for decided was correct. In fact, the chairperson of this group often wrote her own homilies and gave them to the Priest and was enraged if he changed them or preached something else. One elderly Priest, a very solid man practically begged the music director to play the Regina Coeli and Holy God We Praise Thy Name during a Mass being offered for his, the Priests deceased mother, as she had always loved the songs. The Director laughed at him and said the days of those songs was long over and that no one would even know them or even listen to them. So he refused to play them.
I saw a Deacon, instruct my pupils that there was no such thing as Hell or even a judgement, because a loving God, which we have, would never allow any of his children to suffer eternal torment and anyone and anything who said differently was a Nazi.
So you can talk all you want. You can say that in your parish it isn’t like that, that yours is orthodox and good. Great:thumbsup: . I’m happy for you. I’m glad that there are places where there are those who respect the Church and her teachings. Keep it that way, please.
But don’t think for a minute that my experience with these people is unique or rare. It happens all too often…
Oh and lest you think differently,these experiences were not tied to one parish or even one region of the country.