What happen when you do not forgive others?

[water]

Let me ask this, which verse below do you think Jesus intended to talk directly to you? See the consequence in the two verse if you do not forgive other.

whereinthebible.org/Matthew 16:18-19
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

whereinthebible.org/Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. 15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

If we think both are for us, then how could this be? Could Jesus contradict Himself?

Or did He change His mind?

Or He meant these two verses for two different group of people.

Thanks!

 

[jc-servant]

These verses do not contradict each other. The power to bind and loose was being given directly to Peter upon whom Christ was founding his earthly church. Christ gave this power to His apostles who passed it on through the laying of hands to all ordained bishops and priests down to the present time. It is where priests get the authority to forgive sins in Jesus’s name during confession.

The second passage refers to the requirement in the “Lord’s Prayer” that conditions our forgiveness by God on our willingness to forgive others who have done us wrong.

I don’t think they are confusing or that they even appear to contradict each other if you read them in the context of the New Testament and know to whom they were addressed. Scriptures were not originally divided by chapter and verse, so we cannot get hung up on trying to read each little verse separate from the remainder of the text.

 

[water]

I don’t think they are confusing or that they even appear to contradict each other if you read them in the context of the New Testament and know to whom they were addressed. Scriptures were not originally divided by chapter and verse, so we cannot get hung up on trying to read each little verse separate from the remainder of the text.

Thanks, but obviously, it confuses millions of people right now.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello water,

Three days after Pope John Paul II attempted assassination, he forgave his attempted assassin. Nineteen years later Pope John Paul II asked that the man be released from prison. Did Pope John Paul II forgive his attempted assassin three days after the attempt? Yes he did. Did he want him released from prison? He did not want him released from prison at that time, for the protection of the body of people.

Moses commands the Israelites to take no revenge, cherish no grudge and love your neighbor as yourself. Moses, loves his fellow man, cherishes no grudge against his fellow man and Moses stones to death certian individuals for the protection of the body of people. One can punish people without bearing hatred, a grudge or revenge in their heart for that person as Christ commands.

When Jesus tells us to forgive our neighbor, He is reffering to not bearing hatred, a grudge or revenge in your heart for anyone. When Jesus is giving Apostolic Successors the power to have Him bind a soul to sin in heaven, (one cannot go to heaven when Jesus binds them to sin in heaven) He is talking about Catholic Church anathema, which He gives to the Church to use for the non-vengeful protection of the body of people.

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Anathema

…“To understand the word anathema”, says Vigouroux, “we should first go back to the real meaning of herem of which it is the equivalent. Herem comes from the word haram, to cut off, to separate, to curse, and indicates that which is cursed and condemned to be cut off or exterminated,… …but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven”… …anathema, which separates from the body of Christ, which is the Church."… …stricken with the sword of anathema; but if plunging to the depths of the abyss,… …**In passing this sentence, the pontiff…****the formula of anathema **which ends with these words: **Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints,****in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth,****we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate **,… He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions. Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema **NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”**NAB REV 1:16 **

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth… …I hold the keys of death and the nether world." **NAB ISA 11:4 **The Rule of Immanuel

**He shall strike the ruthless with the **rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​

NAB JOH 20:20

"Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

 

[Crumpy]

I think it was both Fr. Angelus and Fr. Benedict Groeschel on EWTN who separately have said, that we dare not pray the Lord’s prayer, if we don’t mean what we say about forgiving others.

In the feb 18 episode of Sunday Night Live with Fr. Groeschel, he was talking about psychological problems, and dealing with forgiveness.

To me, it was interesting that he said that you have to avoid people who are sadists. Now, he wasn’t talking about the sexual deviance of sadism, he was talking about the sadistic personality disorder. Such people have a victim mentality, and feel justified to strike out at other people, for the psychological pleasure of it and to make themselves feel stronger and more important. They are also manipulative people. Do a search on sadism, and check out the Wikipedia entry on this. It describes the personality traits of such a person.

If this fits the problem you have, about forgiving somebody else, and they’re this sort of person, then maybe you can have more insight into this person, and you still have to forgive them. But, your dealings with them may be much more limited when you realize how impossible it is to deal with such a person.

We are still called to unconditional Christian love and charity, but you may have to lower your expectations considerably.

Read Lev 19, slowly and thoughtfully and prayerfully.

Surrender yourself to God’s will. Look for Christ in the other person, even if your feelings are hurt.

Yeah, there are “circumstances” but how about easing up and following God’s ways. What is in your heart?

 

[Spirithound]

whereinthebible.org/Matthew 16:18-19
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

whereinthebible.org/Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. 15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

If we think both are for us, then how could this be? Could Jesus contradict Himself?

Or did He change His mind?

Or He meant these two verses for two different group of people.

Thanks!

The second verse is the only one that says anything about salvation. If you take the first one to be about salvation, you end up with a very special kind of works-salvation, that being that the only work you would be required to do to get to heaven is to say that you’re going to heaven.

 

[mschrank]

we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate ,…

Whoa, talk about calling down fire from heaven.

If only our Church leaders would hold our politicians accountable!

 

[water]

Thank you all for responding.
When I mainly focus on the two verses are about the sacrament of conciliation, and that the first verse was for priests/the Church.

“And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

 

[Steven_Merten]

Whoa, talk about calling down fire from heaven.

If only our Church leaders would hold our politicians accountable!

Hello mschrank,

Today, right or wrong, the Church does not consider Protestants or pagans as vulnerable to papal bindings. Though the Church, at least presently, sees baptized Protestants as within the bosom of the Catholic Church for salvation, the Church, at least presently, does not see baptized Protestants as being affected by papal anathematization. Not even baptized Hitler was anathematized or excommunicated. Personally I do not see how a pagan or Protestant can avoid eternal damnation if Apostolic Successors chose to call upon Jesus to bind their soul to sin in heaven.

Jesus did not order St. Peter to go to Caesar and start laying down Christ’s law upon the people or Caesar will face anathematization. Jesus gave the “Keys to the Kingdom” (the power to bind and loost sin) to give authority and Power to Apostolic Successors to directly lead His followers the Church, rather than weakly and ineffectively trying to lead His Church through world leaders.

If the Church wants to enforce Christ’s will in the world regarding abortion then they have the Power to directly anathematize the individuals who commit or participate in abortion, for the spiritual protection of the body of the Church or the protection of the unborn, without any need of help from world leaders. Jesus did not leave the leadership of His Church under any disadvantage, vulnerablity or weakness of needing any help from world leaders, to disipline His Church into eternal life, or the protection of the innocent. The power of State leaders is infinitely dwarfed by the Power Jesus Christ entrusted with Apostolic Successors to use to guard His Flock on earth.

Please visit Throwing Stones