What happened at Fatima?

[William2]

Does anyone here think that Fatima was perhaps not really a real visit from Mary? I am not sure what to think about it. But, if anyone does not think it real, what would be his explanation of what happened?

I know that the Church has “approved” Fatima, which does not mean that the Church says it was real, just that it may be taken as such etc. etc.

I guess I don’t think Mary would have said and done the things she is said to have done there. At least I am in doubt. And I have read multiple books on this matter, years ago: I am well-informed.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Well all the Popes believe it was real so that is good enough for me.

Perhaps you do not know the BVM well enough to recognise her. If you are well informed and still doubt then no one here is going to be able to add anything to what you have already presumably read I imagine.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

In case you have any doubts about the authenticity of Fatima - know that EVERY SINGLE Pope since then has had nothing but veneration for Our Lady of Fatima and that Pope John Paul II OFFICIALLY promulgated the Feast of Our Lady of Fatima on May 13 as a Catholic Feast day.

It’s official - like it or not, the Feast of Our Lady of Fatima is on May 13 every single year. There is no doubt - the Church has said MORE than it’s just a “private revelation” - it’s an official day of rejoicing in the Church! Deo Gratias!

 

[Monica4316]

Does anyone here think that Fatima was perhaps not really a real visit from Mary? I am not sure what to think about it. But, if anyone does not think it real, what would be his explanation of what happened?

I know that the Church has “approved” Fatima, which does not mean that the Church says it was real, just that it may be taken as such etc. etc.

I guess I don’t think Mary would have said and done the things she is said to have done there. At least I am in doubt. And I have read multiple books on this matter, years ago: I am well-informed.

Yes, I do believe in Fatima…

why do you not think that Mary would have said or done those things? I’m just wondering!!

I know she told us to repent and offer reparation and pray the Rosary…

she also predicted many things like World War II, which happened.

 

[aicirt]

If you google “Miracle of the Sun” you’ll read newspaper articles about the miracle. Seventy thousand witnessed it as far as 30 miles. Non Catholics converted and atheists became believers.

An angel appeared to the three peasant children to prepare them for the BVM. She told them many things including the fact that the two youngest would join her in heaven and Lucy would stay on earth the longest. She asked them to pray the rosary for the conversion of Russia. According to an EWTN presentation, the children did not know to what she was referring as they knew nothing about a country called Russia. They thought she wanted their donkey, named Russia, to convert.

The appariations occurred on the 13th of each month for six months. John Paul II’s attempted assisination occurred on the 13th also the anniversary of Fatima and Lucy died on the 13th.

The children were very young. The youngest was seven. All were shown hell. I’ve often wondered why children were chosen but they were.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I know that the Church has “approved” Fatima, which does not mean that the Church says it was real, just that it may be taken as such etc. etc.

That’s not correct William. The church approval of Fatima means that it certified it as an authentic apparition of Our Blessed Mother. However, it is not dogmatic such that you must believe it to be Catholic.

 

[sawman]

Does anyone here think that Fatima was perhaps not really a real visit from Mary? I am not sure what to think about it. But, if anyone does not think it real, what would be his explanation of what happened?

I know that the Church has “approved” Fatima, which does not mean that the Church says it was real, just that it may be taken as such etc. etc.

I guess I don’t think Mary would have said and done the things she is said to have done there. At least I am in doubt. And I have read multiple books on this matter, years ago: I am well-informed.

William2,
Being well informed, you certainly know we are under no penalty if we don’t believe in the apparition. We may be foolish for not believing something that the Popes believe in and promulgate, but we won’t go to hell for it.
So since we are obliged to believe, whats the beef? Are you looking for someone here to persuade you? Or what? I believe in the apparitions, but you’ve read many books, like me and you don’t believe. I just don’t see what our Blessed Mother said as being hard to believe at all. Very consistant, with scripture and the teaching of the Church. In fact, the message of Fatima seems to me to be almost a seamless progression of the Majesterium.

Why do you find what she said and did to be so hard to believe in?

Peace,
Tom

 

[William2]

I need to go over again what Mary said (is supposed to have said) in this private revelation.

I don’t think that merely seeing something, that appears for a while and then disappears, is a miracle. Is not the enemy able to give visions, to affect the senses and imagination? The tilma of Guadalupe or healings at Lourdes, those are standing miracles, but merely that a lot of people saw something for a while, that is not a miracle.

 

[numealinesimpet]

That’s not correct William. The church approval of Fatima means that it certified it as an authentic apparition of Our Blessed Mother. However, it is not dogmatic such that you must believe it to be Catholic.

Are you sure of that? I thought that “approbation” by the Church normally means only that the Church deems a particular Apparition “worthy of belief” and that it “May be piously believed by the Faithful”. However, that is a separate issue from the actual status of Fatima, which is higher than this; as previous posters have noted, all the subsequent popes (although I’m not sure about John XXIII) spoke in the warmest tones, including Pope John Paul II’s comment “The time for doubting Fatima is past”; the very public Miracle of the Sun; and the inclusion of a special Feast Day on May 13th, which does actually bind Catholics to venerate Our Lady of Fatima – which means that we are being taught that she appeared there.

You have not come back to us with the specific problems you have; but I have known Catholics to be troubled by the statement, “Many souls go to Hell because they have nobody to pray for them”. This flies in the face of the modern individualistic outlook, but it is Catholic dogma all the same. We cannot enter Heaven without Sanctifying Grace. This is a gift “above our nature” and cannot be earned or made. But we are given it at Baptism. If we sin venially, we still do not lose Sanctifying Grace and, through our prayers and sacrifices – and through the Sacraments – we may erase them through the Power of God, who accepts our efforts in union with His Passion. But a soul that has lost Sanctifying Grace, and is in a state of Mortal Sin, cannot of its own efforts regain it because it is impossible to merit Supernatural Grace in this State of Mortal Sin: none of the sinner’s acts are, or can be, of supernatural value. If the sinner makes acts of virtue, they are still only of natural goodness, and God rewards in the natural plane, by extending the sinner’s lifetime, or by placing a good influence (a book, person, sermon, etc) in the sinner’s way. But it is only when somebody else in a State of Grace prays or offers suffrages “for sinners” (or for the named individual) – only then has the Sanctifying Grace been merited, and only then will the Merits of the Passion be applied – e.g. by inspiring the individual to go to Confession.

This thought alone has been enough, in the past, to inspire generous souls to enter Religion as a nun or Brother and devote their entire lives to this “work of God” as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. And what work could be more worthwhile?

This is only one of the less well-publicised Dogmas of the Church that Our Lady at Fatima re-affirmed.

 

[William2]

numealinesimpet:
Indeed, that was the statement that troubled me. I find your explanation satisfactory.

We are not required to believe in Fatima. I know this as a fact, from someone who knows.

This is only my humble and uninformed opinion:
The “miracle of the sun” (nice name, right?) was not a miracle; it was only something seen, a vision. The enemy can influence our senses and imagination. Say what you will, but just b/c a lot of people see something, that is not a miracle. A miracle is something that remains and can be investigated.

I find that private revelations like Fatima serve only to distract people from “all the words of this life.” However, I love Our Lady of Guadalupe.

IMHO. I am not a theologian, a wise man, or a priest. I need to go back and revisit the revelation, b/c there were other things that Mary said and did (supposedly) I found troubling. Every private revelation should be presumed to come from the enemy.

 

[aicirt]

numealinesimpet:
Indeed, that was the statement that troubled me. I find your explanation satisfactory.

We are not required to believe in Fatima. I know this as a fact, from someone who knows.

This is only my humble and uninformed opinion:
The “miracle of the sun” (nice name, right?) was not a miracle; it was only something seen, a vision. The enemy can influence our senses and imagination. Say what you will, but just b/c a lot of people see something, that is not a miracle. A miracle is something that remains and can be investigated.

I find that private revelations like Fatima serve only to distract people from “all the words of this life.” However, I love Our Lady of Guadalupe.

IMHO. I am not a theologian, a wise man, or a priest. I need to go back and revisit the revelation, b/c there were other things that Mary said and did (supposedly) I found troubling. Every private revelation should be presumed to come from the enemy.

What miracle has ever remained that can be investigated? We have the miracle of the Holy Eucharist every day. Has anyone actually dissected a consecrated host? Certainly hope not.

The children were told that a miracle would happen at a certain time, on a certain day, in a certain place. And it happened. No one ran around screaming it is from the devil. Nothing bad occurred. You know by the fruits. It was a very rainy day but after the miracle, the people found their clothes and the earth to be dry. There is no explanation for it. Even if it was some type of phenomona of the sun swirling towards the earth which has never been recorded in history, the children were told that something would happen at that time, date, and place. They could not have made it up.

 

[manualman]

IMHO. I am not a theologian, a wise man, or a priest. I need to go back and revisit the revelation, b/c there were other things that Mary said and did (supposedly) I found troubling. Every private revelation should be presumed to come from the enemy.

You CAN take caution too far. You are attempting to put God on a leash here and declare that miracles cannot anymore happen. It is an awfully short walk from there to the state of not believing miracles EVER happened. God loves people today as much as yesterday, so it is an arbitrary and indefensible assertion to declare that there will never be any miracles or private revelations. God loves to interfere with us humans on earth. It is inevitable with a God who loves us.

But you are correct to be careful to a degree. Myself, I don’t put any stock in the alleged apparitions at Medjugore. But that’s a different (and equally contentious) topic.

 

[numealinesimpet]

It was a very rainy day but after the miracle, the people found their clothes and the earth to be dry. There is no explanation for it.

This is the clincher. The Miracle of the Sun is quite outside our normal categories of thought. It was not a “normal” astronomical phenomenon because it was not seen outside a 30-mile radius. It was not a mental hallucination because of the objective fact, verified by all observers, that the sea of mud and the saturated clothes of the pilgrims became not only dry but warm. It was not mass hypnosis (whatever that is) because people in outlying villages, who were expecting nothing, saw it as well. It was something objectively real, but we cannot say what it actually was. The sun was seen swooping down on the Cova by a witness 20 miles away. He was convinced it was the End of the World. So, I believe, were all those at the Cova. Their reactions were revealing. Many screamed in terror and grovelled on the ground. But others stood up tall, lifting their heads in gladdened joy. One man tells us he said within himself, “O God, how great is Thy Power!”

 

[numealinesimpet]

Does anyone here think that Fatima was perhaps not really a real visit from Mary?

The timing of the Fatima apparitions is very notable.

Mary Appeared at Fatima in response to a call from the Pope.

In 1917, the First World War was raging, with no end in sight. Pope Benedict XV turned to the Blessed Virgin Mary, through whom all graces are dispensed. The Pope urged all Christian people to beg the Mother of God to obtain peace for the world, and to solemnly entrust the task to her:
“Have recourse to the Heart of Jesus, Throne of Graces, through the intercession of Mary”. It was at this time that he added ‘Queen of Peace, pray for us’ to the Litany of Loreto.

And Heaven answered. Our Lady was swift to respond:

Only eight days after this prayer, Our Lady appeared to the three children at Fatima.

And it was only two weeks after the Miracle of the Sun that the Bolsheviks stormed the Winter Palace of St. Petersburg and the Communist Revolution was launched. The Battle of Our Generation had begun. And it is still raging. How different are the weapons of the two sides.

 

[aicirt]

This is the clincher. The Miracle of the Sun is quite outside our normal categories of thought. It was not a “normal” astronomical phenomenon because it was not seen outside a 30-mile radius. It was not a mental hallucination because of the objective fact, verified by all observers, that the sea of mud and the saturated clothes of the pilgrims became not only dry but warm. It was not mass hypnosis (whatever that is) because people in outlying villages, who were expecting nothing, saw it as well. It was something objectively real, but we cannot say what it actually was. The sun was seen swooping down on the Cova by a witness 20 miles away. He was convinced it was the End of the World. So, I believe, were all those at the Cova. Their reactions were revealing. Many screamed in terror and grovelled on the ground. But others stood up tall, lifting their heads in gladdened joy. One man tells us he said within himself, “O God, how great is Thy Power!”

True. The BVM had told the children there would be a miracle on that date in that place. There was no way the children could have anticipated this.

The BVM also said there would be a sign in the skies re. the coming of WWII. That would be the Auroa Borealis which was seen on 1/25/38 below 50 degrees latitude as far south as Africa and extending over 500,000 sq. miles. Sister Lucia saw it from her convent.

aculink.net/~catholic/fatima.htm

 

[Scoochy]

I’ve done lots of searching on this topic; this is the closest answer to my question (which isn’t that close).

I would like to see every commonality, that has been made public, regarding ALL OF THE APPARITIONS to date; specifically about the secrets that have been made known, & timeframes thereof.

I know that it’s a simple matter of research. While I DO have the time, I DON’T have the soundness of health required to do the research. I’m on disability (pain every day). If anyone would be interested in knowing this answer, I would very much like to read what has been learned.​

All for the Glory of God.

 

[Victorious]

I’ve often wondered why children were chosen but they were.

I think they were chosen because (a) of their innocence and their confidence, untouched by the cynicism of the world; (b) because of their generosity of heart; and (c) to prove that the message of Fatima really came from heaven and was not manufactured by them. God often uses weak and faulty instruments in order to prove that the designs He executes by them are really His and not theirs. Consider, for example, St. Bernadette Subirous and the apparitions of Lourdes. Our Lady identified herself to St. Bernadette as “the Immaculate Conception.” Bernadette did not in the least understand what that meant, which tended to rule out deception on her part.

I find that private revelations like Fatima serve only to distract people from “all the words of this life.”…Every private revelation should be presumed to come from the enemy.

I am not getting the reference to “all the words of this life.” But God does not do anything without a purpose, so legitimate revelations like Fatima are prima facie not “distractions” (and in fact, the idea that they are is contrary to Catholic teaching, which is that these revelations are given to us to help us to live the Gospel more fully at our point in history, cf. CCC #67). As for the presumption that every private revelation comes from the enemy, does that go for the approved ones?

 

[Scoochy]

“…I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament…There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves upon earth…J.R.R. Tolkien”

TO: Victorious

If only we could restore our behaviours, morals & thoughts of those times… Well, one CAN HOPE & one CAN PRAY, as there is nothing impossible for Our God. May ALL GLORY BE TO HIS HOLY NAME.

 

[William2]

Private revelations happen, I believe, real revelations from God. What I am saying is that Fatima is not one (by way of argument).

With Guadalupe, you have a miracle that endures, in some fashion: the tilma. Lourdes: the healings.

Fatima you have only “the miracle of the sun” (nice name, right? i say again), which did not remain. It was something seen, that’s all. A vision is not a miracle, regardless of how many people see it. Why? b/c fallen spirits can effect this.

Point being: each private revelation is presumed to come from the enemy, and then we go from there. And the farthest the Church goes from there is “probable authenticity.” But in the beginning, everything is met with extreme skepticism.

Hypothesis would be that the enemy appeared to the children as an angel, then Mary, again and again, said that something would happen on this day, then the enemy put forth his might to effect “the miracle of the sun” (not a miracle) and he dried the ground. None of this is miraculous, bottom line. Nothing on the order of Guadalupe and Lourdes etc.

Gideon did put out the fleece, but that was adapted to his understanding. The 20th century Church could be expected to know that lots and lots of bad spirits acting together could effect the drying of the ground and clothes (if that is even true: hearsay).

Bottom line here: no miracle that remains, that endures. A vision, hearsay, etc. Nothing that stands up. Why bother with it? It only warps people’s sense of prayer, grace, etc., distracts them from the living of the gospel. A lot of needless worrying about the secrets of Fatima and Russia. A big red-herring. Like most of the private revelations we hear about, including even the brown scapular. Stuff that makes Catholicism look “superstitious.” I would even say this about Divine Mercy. Why believe in this stuff?

 

[Victorious]

Bottom line here: no miracle that remains, that endures. A vision, hearsay, etc. Nothing that stands up. Why bother with it? It only warps people’s sense of prayer, grace, etc., distracts them from the living of the gospel. A lot of needless worrying about the secrets of Fatima and Russia. A big red-herring. Like most of the private revelations we hear about, including even the brown scapular. Stuff that makes Catholicism look “superstitious.” I would even say this about Divine Mercy. Why believe in this stuff?

This is not what the Church says about Fatima, the Brown Scapular, or the Divine Mercy revelations. Nor is this what the Church teaches about authentic private revelations in general.