What happened to Catholic Knights and how do we get them back?

[Baelor]

What, in your humble opinion, would be a non-“silly”, realistic way to stop what is happening in our schools?

Strict gun control and stronger security at schools. There is no reason at all anyone should enter a school with a gun.

The CCC calls protecting innocent lives a “grave matter”, meaning if you FAIL to do so, under the provided circumstances, it would be a MORTAL SIN.

And yet the Church also distinguishes between direct and indirect causes. I am not morally responsible for the victims of warlords in Africa, although I could fly over there and make a stand. That is not to say that we should not care about such issues, but please be careful about your loose application of Catholic theology.

So what’s YOUR excuse? At least I want to do something that’s actually effective!

Prove it through case studies.

Our religion USED to have men willing to stand in the gap to the last man to give as much time for the innocent to escape as possible… See both the battle of Acre in 1291 and the Battle of the island of Malta in 1565. Where are those Catholic men / women now?

Everywhere, taking a stand against various injustices throughout the world. It is deeply offensive and uncharitable for you to reduce their efforts to nothing because they are not focused on 1) only one concern 2) in the very narrow way you want.

Since that time the Catholic culture has not only shunned its warrior class, it has eliminated it. Evil has declared war on our children: abortion, drugs, gangs, pornography, and now mass violence in our schools.

I’m saying, for the sake of our children, it is time to revive our warrior class.

Who would fight with what force? Are you suggesting that we murder pornographers? If so, please review some Catholic moral theology.

 

[Snowball7]

Have you heard about the
knightsofdivinemercy.com/

btw, we are correct to not speak about any Church related
groups which may break government laws or not “turn the other cheek”,
let us only say the Church has been fairly strong since its onset, has it not ?
Are there undercover groups ? Answer that for yourself, then seek to
talk to the right people about it. Certainly not on an internet forum.

 

[PoorKnight]

You just took it completely wrong, it says the prohibition against murder does not means you can’t defend yourself (it says you can defend yourself); if they are trying to kill you then you can respond with lethal force.

10 to 15 rounds in 5-10 seconds does not mean 10-15 targets unless they are clumped.

I fail to see where I “took it completely wrong”. Per the CCC we are not only “allowed” to defend ourselves, but others as well. Not only that it says that to anyone who has the duty to defend, it is a “grave duty”.

Agreed that the people would need to be grouped, but study the school masacres that I have. The innocent people killed are in “clumps” as you put it.

The point stands. I’m not even the fastest shot out there. I’ve seen videos of guys who could get off more shots in that time… WITH A REVOLVER… and more accurately than I could too.

 

[PoorKnight]

Here is my humble opinion. It’s not perfectly worded, but it’s a human effort.

PoorKnight, you said
Bollocks, to use a British word. Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks. Tell me where, ever in history, an army, secular or religious, ever, ever, EVER prevented all loss of life across multiple events and locations. Tell me where in Scripture it ever promises that we can preserve all life. Even the Battle of Lepanto, a miraculous victory, left around 7500 dead on the Christian side, to the 20,000 of the Ottoman Turks.

What is my point? My point is that as long as there is sin, there will always be death. “The wages of sin is death.” No amount of knights, whether in steel armor with swords or faithful men and women in kevlar and assault rifles in every school, will be able to prevent that. We’re in a battle not only with the forces of this world, but with principalities and powers. And no matter how hard we work, no matter how prepared we are, they’re more powerful than we are.

I believe there are two false assumptions in your proposal, which are linked.

1. We can prevent all evil by human means alone. Only when the Gospel prevails and Jesus Christ is alive in every heart will the Kingdom finally be realized, evil will be definitively for all time destroyed. But that time “no man knows.”
2. Fixing the symptom will cure the disease. Putting guards in schools is a band-aid on leprosy. The wound is deeper, and it is festering, and rotting. Maybe the bandage is necessary, but the underlying disease must be cured. And to do that, we must preach the Gospel and bring the grace of Jesus Christ to the whole world. We must confront all evil with the love that is *willing *to take a bullet, to be crucified at any cost. And that takes genuine sacrifice. That takes real and deep faith. It takes profound hope. And it takes concrete love in concrete situations.

I’m not saying your suggestion is “silliness.” I’m not saying the country needs to be disarmed,and firearms banned. Nor am I saying that guards in schools are a bad idea. Maybe one or both of those are needed at the moment. Maybe neither. Certainly we need to be better prepared with plans to deal with such circumstances. What I’m saying is that we can’t fix the problem by human action alone. To believe that is to buy into the very first lie of the deceiver. We need God’s grace to penetrate the wounds of our human nature and heal us. And the only way that will happen, the ONLY WAY, is if we, each and every one of us, preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ with firm and unflinching faith.

Everyone who does this is already a knight. I suggest Ephesians 6 for St Paul’s words on knighthood and spiritual battle. Heck, the whole letter.

May the Kingdom of God come, and may it begin this Christmas. We’ve still got an hour where I am.

Merry Christmas everyone.

I’m not good at individual quote stuff, nor do I have the time so I will merely respond in general.

You have misunderstood me:
NOWHERE did I advocate - or even hint at - abandoning the Spiritual Warfare. I have the whole “Armor of God” of Ephesians written and posted in my bedroom. I am FULLY aware that Knights are not THE solution.

I am COMPLETLY aware that Christ is the ONLY solution. However, Christ continues to use falible people and PHYSICAL means to complete His mission.

I have never said, typed nor thought that the solution was Human only. You are reading too much into my comments.

I also have never said, typed nor thought that treating the symptoms would fix the underlying problems. I have done about 7 years of study, teaching and research of school violence, its causes, influences and response to.

Where did I ever even imply that having Knights in schools would prevent ALL death?

If you want real life circumstances to show that this could REDUCE this type of violence look at Isreal and how they protect their schools. Then look at why they did it. Then look at how many school shootings they’ve had since they implemented this kind of protection.

I’ll save you the time: They have a roving patrol of rifle armed, armored soldiers around every school and armed guards both private and military in every school. Durring a field trip they use armored busses and bring with rifle armed, armored soldiers and arm some of the teachers too. They have had 1 school related shooting (though it was not in a school but a home study) since. The shooter was killed by an off-duty soldier who was carrying a pistol with him.

As I have posted several times, just standing in the way means you might make the bad guy “waste” (though the bad guy doesn’t think so) a bullet or two. Big deal, most of them take with them far more ammo than they use.

As James said, if you see a physical need but all you do is pray for it, you’re proffiting nothing (cf James 2:15).

I see a physical need: there is no one in these schools, ready, willing or able to protect the innocent Lambs from the Wolf. As a matter of fact, there is no one even preparing for school violence in any where near the level that they prepare for school fire.

That kind of Denial is Killing our children.

God Help Us!

 

[PoorKnight]

Strict gun control and stronger security at schools. There is no reason at all anyone should enter a school with a gun.

But they keep doing it. What’s your solution? More pieces of paper to say, “now you bad guys you really Really REALLY can’t have guns!” Balony. I take more guns away from people who already shouldn’t have them. Pieces of paper with words on them mean nothing to these guys.

And yet the Church also distinguishes between direct and indirect causes. I am not morally responsible for the victims of warlords in Africa, although I could fly over there and make a stand. That is not to say that we should not care about such issues, but please be careful about your loose application of Catholic theology.

“Loose” application? Who is your neighbor? Are we not responsible for caring for our neighbor?

I am deeply insulted by this and I believe it is not I who has the “loose” interpretation of Catholic Theology.

Prove it through case studies.

80%+ of these Pillars Of Society (POS) commit suicide when confronted with armed resistance:
forcescience.org/fsinews/2008/05/ohio-trainer-makes-the-case-for-single-officer-entry-against-active-killers

“Force Science” IS a science research group.

I want to have the armed confrontation sooner.

So what’s YOUR more effective solution?

Everywhere, taking a stand against various injustices throughout the world. It is deeply offensive and uncharitable for you to reduce their efforts to nothing because they are not focused on 1) only one concern 2) in the very narrow way you want.

You read too much into my statement. I NEVER said there were not good men and women sacrificing themselves for the sake of social justice. But I dare say it is you who is being narrow minded, eliminating the vocation of those called to take on the duty to Physically Protect (per the CCC) the innocent. Yes I am focusing this discussion on one concern. But we seem to have eliminated a big part of the deterant and solution to our problem because we seem to want to be “Peace at all costs” society.

I am a Pacifist… I’m just willing to FIGHT for peace. Are you?

Who would fight with what force? Are you suggesting that we murder pornographers? If so, please review some Catholic moral theology.

Where did I imply that? This whole thread has been about physcally protecting our children from mass murder. I put in those other examples because Catholics are outraged at these other ways our children are being attacked, but HEAVEN FORBID someone wants to physically protect our children from murder!

Or maybe we should just “pray for them”… I definately will, but if that’s ALL we’re doing, our prayer is not profitable cf James 2:15.

God Help Us!

 

[Baelor]

But they keep doing it. What’s your solution?]

Stricter gun control and tighter security.

“Loose” application? Who is your neighbor? Are we not responsible for caring for our neighbor?

We are, but that has to be understood in the larger context of Catholic moral theology. One cannot, say, blow up abortion clinics, for example.

I want to have the armed confrontation sooner.

It is obviously better not to have an armed confrontation at all, ceteris paribus.

So what’s YOUR more effective solution?

Stricter gun control and tighter security.

I NEVER said there were not good men and women sacrificing themselves for the sake of social justice.

Yes, you did:
PK:

Our religion USED to have men willing to stand in the gap to the last man to give as much time for the innocent to escape as possible…Where are those Catholic men / women now?

Consider the implications of your question.

But I dare say it is you who is being narrow minded, eliminating the vocation of those called to take on the duty to Physically Protect (per the CCC) the innocent.

I said no such thing.

Yes I am focusing this discussion on one concern. But we seem to have eliminated a big part of the deterant and solution to our problem because we seem to want to be “Peace at all costs” society.

The fact that we do it badly does not mean that the ideal is wrong.

I am a Pacifist… I’m just willing to FIGHT for peace. Are you?

but HEAVEN FORBID someone wants to physically protect our children from murder!

That is a worthwhile goal. It should be coupled with stricter gun control.

 

[AndrewRaZ]

Dear PoorKnight,
I am sorry that you feel I misunderstood you. Perhaps I did. However, I also feel that you misunderstood me.

You asked:

Where did I ever even imply that having Knights in schools would prevent ALL death?

All death in schools? Right here:

Give me 2 armed Templars per school and Newport doesn’t happen again… EVER.

This was the line, in particular, that I responded to. This was your thesis. Everything else you said prior to this is your support for it. If you were to claim more modestly “armed guards in schools may reduce or eliminate school shootings,” I would 100% agree with you. However, you didn’t say that. You said 2 armed guards in each school would prevent all future school shootings.

To which I heartily say again: bollocks.
Along similar lines, if someone said “give me two armed guards in every bank and John Dillinger never happens again… EVER,” we would have good cause to doubt that. Where evil has a will, it will find a way.

Now what I said:

I’m not saying your suggestion is “silliness.” I’m not saying the country needs to be disarmed,and firearms banned. **Nor am I saying **that guards in schools are a bad idea. Maybe one or both of those are needed at the moment. Maybe neither. Certainly we need to be better prepared with plans to deal with such circumstances. What I’m saying is that we can’t fix the problem by human action alone. To believe that is to buy into the very first lie of the deceiver. We need God’s grace to penetrate the wounds of our human nature and heal us. And the only way that will happen, the ONLY WAY, is if we, each and every one of us, preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ with firm and unflinching faith. [emphasis added]

Nowhere did I advocate - or even hint at - abandoning the Temporal Warfare, or even to neglect something so simple as having everyone prepared with a disaster plan. What I said was that the cause of the temporal problem is spiritual. It is an infection of evil in the soul, to make it sound poetic. It’s the problem of evil, plain and simple. Armed protection in schools may help the symptom, but it will never cure the problem.

Again, I didn’t disagree that armed guards may help the symptom. But violence is the fruit on the tree, and the tree is sick down to the roots, and has to be healed by grace. That’s where the temporal work of evangelization and conversion comes in. On this point, I think we both agree.

I am merely cautioning you against grand claims that armed guards will prevent all future shootings.

 

[Presurmksdimnds]

I’m with it.

Put me in the kitchen or wherever I can be of help.

I can sew, too. White mantles anyone?

 

[St_Hilary]

I didn’t know where to put this, and seeing how this is right up my vocation as a Catholic Cop, I figured I’d put it here:

In light of the tragedy in Newport: what happened to our REAL Catholic Knights and how do we get them back?

This isn’t just a “let’s muse about theological heady stuff” thread. I want to know for real: if I wanted to start a lay order of Catholic Knights - REAL knights - where would I start, who would I talk to, what sorts of things would they want to know.

I’m going to copy / paste a large chunk of a post I made a while ago to illustrate the point. It’s appropriate and shows the error in a recent Cardinal Dolan - whom I normally love - sound bite of heavy gun control laws being no longer a legal issue but a “common sence” issue (in context sounded like he was edging towards it being a moral issue).

Paragraph 2321 of CCC states “The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.”

To render someone ‘unable to inflict harm’ may easily mean death for the unjust aggressor. Anyone who is motivated can shrug off a bullet wound. The book “Lone Survivor” tells the real-life story of a squad of 4 Navy SEALs who were ambushed by over 300 Taliban. 3 out of the 4 SEALs were killed but not before each of them - including the author (the lone survivor) - received 4 or more bullet wounds. The last SEAL killed actually took a round that entered his head at one temple and exited at the other. That SEAL still fought down to his last pistol magazine. So the whole idea of “just shoot them in the leg” will not reliably render an unjust aggressor UNABLE to inflict harm.

The whole “Lone Ranger” shoot-the-gun-out-of-their-hand is next to impossible. Mythbusters had an episode trying to replicate something similar. They declared their experiment a “one-in-a-million” shot. Hands are constantly moving making a 2" x 1" target (the size of a LARGE sized pistol pointed at you) virtually impossible to reliably hit. This too is certainly NOT a reliable way to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm.

Other mythical “guaranteed to stop anyone but not harm anyone” methods either do not stop or do not exist. Tazer is limited to 21 feet and TWO barbs fired out at different angles must BOTH hit. At the maximum range the two barbs are at 3 FEET apart. Tazer’s long range solution is unreliable and has recently been removed from the market. The 40mm rubber bullets hit harder than a Mike Tyson punch. The target area is usually lower abdomen, legs or buttock area. If a person is on a pain killing drug - i.e. PCP - or sufficiantly motivated - see above SEAL real life situation - they won’t even know they’ve been hit.

Nets - as I’ve heard suggested on a radio show - do not prevent anyone from pulling a trigger.
Instant stick foams, sound-wave guns and Star Trek “set-to-stun” guns do not exist.

Making someone “Unable” to inflict harm means they stop their dangerous behavior. The quickest, most reliable way to stop someone (read: render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm) is to disrupt the information going from the brain to the muscles. This is most reliably done by causing the brain to shut down. This is done by two different ways: deprive it of blood, or cause enough damage to make it instantly shut down.

To that end the target area for Law Enforcement is ONLY two areas: Central Nervous System or Central Circulatory System. This means we aim for the Head or the Heart when forced to use Deadly Force. However, shooting someone in the heart is not an instant stop either. A person can live 5 to 10 seconds after being shot in the heart. From personal experience I know I can fire off 10-15 rounds in 5 to 10 seconds meaning a potential of 10 to 15 more innocent causalities. Double However, while shooting a unjust aggressor in the head is a much more reliable way of an instant stop, it is a harder target, but not nearly impossible as striking a gun out of someone’s hands.

Big long post for: Give me 2 armed Templars per school and Newport doesn’t happen again… EVER. Just look at Isreal.

Providing adaquate protection is a MORAL issue per CCC. How do we start this for our kids?

God help us! :knight1: :knight1:

 

[St_Hilary]

St_Hilary:
I know that Moother Angelica’s group of nuns have Cathgolic Knights. It has been advertised previously and it has shown them.

SHe is the head of the eternal network channel in ALABAMA.

YOU MIGHT WANT TO CHECK WITH HER.

GOD BLESS YOU

 

[AndyF]

The solution is to restrict arms, period. The majority once a minority are irresponsible around firearms, so the answer is the constitution needs changing. It’s going to be a difficult and dangerous road back to sanity and a lot of bloodshed for sure. A manhunt to call in military weapons will be needed.

With all the expressed loyalty to nation we see in the US, put to the test it will be interesting to see if the same self sacrifice turned inward is also accepted.

 

[jumper82]

The solution is to restrict arms, period. The majority once a minority are irresponsible around firearms, so the answer is the constitution needs changing. It’s going to be a difficult and dangerous road back to sanity and a lot of bloodshed for sure. A manhunt to call in military weapons will be needed.

With all the expressed loyalty to nation we see in the US, put to the test it will be interesting to see if the same self sacrifice turned inward is also accepted.

Disarming law-abiding citizens has NEVER worked. In any society, in any period of history.

Reading Dave Grossman’s “On Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves” explains the concept much better, and more eloquently than I am able.

It is incumbent upon all good men and women to protect and defend those who are unable to protect themselves. It is a calling, a vocation and a service in it’s own right.

I agree on many points with the OP. What I find “silly” is that we are not addressing those in need of psychiatric help in our society. Our government funds the death of unborn children, yet can not commit, admit or treat those who present real danger to the public. Why?

 

[PrayRosary]

I agree on many points with the OP. What I find “silly” is that we are not addressing those in need of psychiatric help in our society. Our government funds the death of unborn children, yet can not commit, admit or treat those who present real danger to the public. Why?

I dont agree with the OP, but you make a solid point here.

 

[drfye]

Knights of Malta formally known as the knights hospitaller are still in existence.

 

[Agent_Benedict]

We DO have Catholic knights

The US Military is composed 25% of Catholic Soldiers
That means one out of four soldiers are Catholic Knights
They still exist
:knight2:

 

[Dwyer]

The Teutonic Knights are still active:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights

Papal Orders of Chivalry:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Orders_of_Chivalry

 

[drfye]

The Teutonic Knights are still active:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights

Papal Orders of Chivalry:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Orders_of_Chivalry

didn’t the Teutonic knights disband about 500 years ago when their leaders became protestant or something like that?

 

[HollyDolly]

Aparently they still held lands in Germany until Napeoleon came along.They didn’t completely disappear.

Some relatives of my grandmother’s the von Lilienschilds according to records in the city of Riga beloned to an order of knights,most likely the Livonian Knights of the Sword who later were joined to the Teutonic Knights . Know as far as grandpa’s side the Hilperts were concerned,some of them may have been Teutonic Knights.The family has a long history of military service .If any were members of them or the german branch of the Knights Templar, it might be recorded in the family history book.I’d love to go to Nuremberg some day and have a look at the book to see what members of the faimly were knights.

 

[drfye]

Aparently they still held lands in Germany until Napeoleon came along.They didn’t completely disappear.

Some relatives of my grandmother’s the von Lilienschilds according to records in the city of Riga beloned to an order of knights,most likely the Livonian Knights of the Sword who later were joined to the Teutonic Knights . Know as far as grandpa’s side the Hilperts were concerned,some of them may have been Teutonic Knights.The family has a long history of military service .If any were members of them or the german branch of the Knights Templar, it might be recorded in the family history book.I’d love to go to Nuremberg some day and have a look at the book to see what members of the faimly were knights.

would certainly be something interesting to find out about

 

[SamH]

I’m saying, for the sake of our children, it is time to revive our warrior class.

God Help us!

Some have revived it without the help of the Knights.