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atheistgirl
Guest
That’s a very interesting point.
I wonder if in Europe or Africa there was as much enforcement of this unofficial teaching?
Sarah x
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I wonder if in Europe or Africa there was as much enforcement of this unofficial teaching?
Sarah x
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
No (it takes a lot to convince me to watch a video, since I just generally am doing too many other things in other tabs to bother), but I have no reason to doubt you. You’re 100% right. But then, the purpose of the thread is about what happened to Limbo (the answer clearly being that the theory fell heavily out of favor in the wake of Vatican II) and where aborted babies go, not how the Priests and Bishops used Limbo as an excuse to act horridly.I know, I’m really clear about and fully understand it was never an official teaching from the magisterium.
But there are a lot of questions I would be asking, and demanding answers for, were I a Catholic mother whose child’s remains are lying along the border of a field somewhere, unmarked, because the priests and Bishops adhered to, and enforced on parents, something that was never an official teaching.
Did you watch the video?
Truely heartbreaking.
Sarah x
I agree with you, of course-there’s no doubt that the babies should have been given Christian burials, even if it WAS believed that they only went to Limbo, since they did nothing that warranted them being denied one. But I don’t really see the bearing this has on the thread.
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Armor_of_Light
Guest
Wow!..Thanks very much for this link and research. It answers all the questions I had regarding this topic. God bless you.
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MHT32
Guest
Limbo was never officially taught by the Church, though some saints believed in it (Such as Augustine) We could assume that aborted babies would go to heaven, since those who go to hell freely choose to go there.
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Corki
Guest
[BIBLEDRB]John 3:5
[/BIBLEDRB]
Limbo is the attempt to reach a theological reconcilliation between our belief in a just and merciful God and this (and other) words from Jesus’ own lips.
We don’t say that they can’t be saved by grace alone, only that that manner of salvation has not been revealed.
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LaMusicaSenior
Guest
We do not know the amazing extent of our God’s mercy for the littlest of His brethern - perhaps their slaughter is infact Baptism by blood ?
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William_C
Guest
What’s been revealed is that salvation is BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH (Eph 2:8).
Faith being the instrumentality, which requires that to be saved through it, one must be able to have it.
But what about those who are incapble of having it?
For those, we can go to the cause of salvation: GRACE.
GRACE being the cause of salvation, infants are saved by GRACE because **GRACE **is not only necessary for salvation, it’s SUFFICIENT for salvation by itself. Thus the reformers sola gratia.
What else can we say about that?
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M-Dent
Guest
Certainly. Glad to pass on what I found helpful.
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TimothyH
Guest
Nothing William. This is the exact teaching of the Catholic Church, that we are all saved by the free gift of God’s grace. God withholds his grace and gives his grace freely, inclusive of those who are murdered before being born.
for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Phillipians 2:13)
This is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches, that salvation is a work of God. God gives us the grace to both will and work. Grace is God’s free gift to man, and murdered unborn pesons are no exception, and if anyone is saved, it is through God’s grace.
-Tim-
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William_C
Guest
That’s good to know.
When was the official dogma that those who die in infancy go to heaven on the basis of grace alone infallibly declared?
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
No, we ABSOLUTELY cannot assume. That is a very big error.
We can hope for that. We can pray for that. We can trust that God’s mercy will not fail them. But we cannot “assume” they go to Heaven.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
There is none. I’m amazed people keep saying this (if indeed I’m not misinterpreting TimothyH here, which is possible). The official teaching, in the Catechism, is that they are “entrusted to the mercy of God”.
We can HOPE they’re in Heaven. We can PRAY they’re in Heaven. We can trust that God in His mercy will do what his best for them. But we do NOT know they’re in Heaven
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William_C
Guest
I know.
Marc Anthony:
Yeah, I know. As I read his response to me, I kept hearing this voice saying, “he’s equivocating; he’s equivocating,” and I figured with my question, he would come back and say that he never said the chuch officially taught that infants are saved by grace.
In fact, I’m certain that’s what he’s going to do: backtrack, re-state, and re-explain what he said.
Marc Anthony:
I know.
Marc Anthony:
Yes you can.
Marc Anthony:
Once they die, it’s decided, so it’s kind of pointless to pray for that after they’ve died.
Marc Anthony:
They are.
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TimothyH
Guest
It is not right for you to reply in a sarcastic way to what I posted in good faith.
It shows a lack of charity, an unwillingness to discuss things like an adult, and pride. Smugness.
We trust in God’s mercy. That’s the answer you have already been given.
-Tim-
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Not necessarily from a Catholic perspective; Purgatory, while it seems rather unlikely, is still a possibility.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
There seems to be some confusion about the meaning of the term “Limbo”. This same term is used in three different ways:
The limbo of Hell was taught by the Council of Florence and the Council of Lyons II, so it is an infallible teaching of the Magisterium.
The idea of limbo as a third final destination is a theological opinion that has fallen out of favor. It is still perhaps tenable, but I would argue against the idea.
In addition, the Magisterium teaches the universal salvific will of God, that God wills all human persons to be saved. The CCC teaches that only those persons who commit actual mortal sin, and who remain unrepentant through death, are condemned to Hell.
Baptism remits original sin. A person dies in a state of “original sin only” if he or she does not obtain sanctifying grace in this life by a baptism of water, or of desire, or of blood. My opinion is that God never permits innocent children to die in this state, only adults who are culpable for the sin of omission of not finding sanctifying grace by some form of baptism in this life.
- The Limbo of Purgatory - a figurative ‘upper level’ of Purgatory, sometimes called the limbo of the Fathers, this is a temporary place, where the holy persons who lived before Christ waited for Christ to die for their salvation so that they could enter into Heaven. The residents of this version of limbo are happy, in that they know that they are saved, but they do not yet have the Beatific Vision of God, nor the full happiness of Heaven.
- The Limbo of Hell - a figurative ‘upper level’ of Hell, this is a permanent place, lacking most of the physical and spiritual punishments of Hell, but also lacking the Beatific Vision and the happiness of Heaven. The residents of this version of limbo are unhappy at their loss of Heaven, but not to the point of torture or torment.
- Limbo as a Third Final Resting Place, which is neither Heaven nor Hell. It is thought of as a permanent place of perfect natural happiness, but one lacking the Beatific Vision, the Communion of the Saints, and other benefits of Heaven. The residents of this version of limbo are happy, but not with the full joy of Heaven.
The limbo of Hell was taught by the Council of Florence and the Council of Lyons II, so it is an infallible teaching of the Magisterium.
The idea of limbo as a third final destination is a theological opinion that has fallen out of favor. It is still perhaps tenable, but I would argue against the idea.
In addition, the Magisterium teaches the universal salvific will of God, that God wills all human persons to be saved. The CCC teaches that only those persons who commit actual mortal sin, and who remain unrepentant through death, are condemned to Hell.
Baptism remits original sin. A person dies in a state of “original sin only” if he or she does not obtain sanctifying grace in this life by a baptism of water, or of desire, or of blood. My opinion is that God never permits innocent children to die in this state, only adults who are culpable for the sin of omission of not finding sanctifying grace by some form of baptism in this life.
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rfournier103
Guest
I invite you to visit threads on Purgatory and the Deuterocanon. The baby in question MAY need a stopover in Purgatory. Purgatory is NOT a second chance. His fate has already been decided. But if the stain of original sin hasn’t been washed away through baptism, the original sin may need to be PURGED through fire. After all… nothing unclean may enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We can pray for his stay in Purgatory to be as brief and painless as possible.
If you are here to learn about the Catholic Faith; Purgatory, the Deuterocanon, and prayer for the dead are definate differences between us. I would invite you to learn more at:
scripturecatholic.com/
You may not agree with everything there, but I have found it very informative… and you may also.
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Corki
Guest
Well, since this is Catholic answers, we tend to put a bit higher stock in what Scripture and the Church Fathers say than what the reformers came up with.
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slotty
Guest
Cause they were not very pastoral
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Joe_5859
Guest
I recommend reading the International Theological Commission’s document from a few years back:
The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized
A document from the ITC isn’t a work of the magisterium and so doesn’t necessarily constitute “official” Catholic teaching, but it gives you a pretty good idea of where the Church is at on this issue.
Basically, limbo is a theological hypothesis. It has never been doctrine. At this point, Catholics are free to believe it or not.
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