What happened to Limbo?

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Exactly!

My sister was in nursing college many years ago and doing a stint at the emergency ward at a public hospital in Newark NJ.

In one night, she had two dead newborn infants brought in. One had been popped in a giant vat of boiling water,and the other had been roasted in the oven. Just two unrelated “incidents” that she had to participate in declaring the death and doing the paper work on.

Both mothers were mentally ill - probably not drugs back then, but just sick in the head and out of their minds with life’s problems and hunger and constant spousal abuse.

So you tell me that anyone thinks these children - one boiled and one roasted, born unwanted and then submitted to unbelievable suffering they could not comprehend… this child goes to hell for all eternity because nobody bothered to baptize them?

Please. If you believe this and then still worship this God, then you have problems beyond anything this board can help you with. I’d rather burn in hell for all eternity than worship such a God. Thankfully, I know this is not so. My God is infinitely loving and merciful - especially towards children, the poor, the disabled, the innocent.
 
tonyrey said:
To believe unbaptized infants could be suffering the torments of Hell is alien to the teaching of Jesus that God is our loving Father and merely serves to bring Christianity into disrepute.
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Didn’t Christ also teach that you have to be baptized to be saved? Didn’t one of the councils that Will mentioned say that one that hasn’t been baptized has not been cleansed of original sin and therefore goes right to Hell. To judge where someone goes or doesn’t go after they live is reserved for God alone so you shouldn’t be saying that infants don’t suffer in Hell. Christ and the Church have never taught that we are allowed to judge someone’s destination.
 
ajpirc said:
Didn’t Christ also teach that you have to be baptized to be saved? Didn’t one of the councils that Will mentioned say that one that hasn’t been baptized has not been cleansed of original sin and therefore goes right to Hell.
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Do you believe that God is limited by His own sacraments?
 
sojo said:
Exactly!

My sister was in nursing college many years ago and doing a stint at the emergency ward at a public hospital in Newark NJ.

In one night, she had two dead newborn infants brought in. One had been popped in a giant vat of boiling water,and the other had been roasted in the oven. Just two unrelated “incidents” that she had to participate in declaring the death and doing the paper work on.

Both mothers were mentally ill - probably not drugs back then, but just sick in the head and out of their minds with life’s problems and hunger and constant spousal abuse.

So you tell me that anyone thinks these children - one boiled and one roasted, born unwanted and then submitted to unbelievable suffering they could not comprehend… this child goes to hell for all eternity because nobody bothered to baptize them?

Please. If you believe this and then still worship this God, then you have problems beyond anything this board can help you with. I’d rather burn in hell for all eternity than worship such a God. Thankfully, I know this is not so. My God is infinitely loving and merciful - especially towards children, the poor, the disabled, the innocent.
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As far as I’m concerned your final sentence puts an end to the discussion. 🙂
 
God is outside of time, and I would hope that our future prayers for the unborn babies salvation would help get them to Heaven.

I know that the Church hasn’t approved/disproved Medjugorje, but one of the seers (mirjanna) asked Our Lady about what is the fate of aborted babies, and Our Lady replied that they were with her! I would like to think that it true!
 
sojo said:
Exactly!

My sister was in nursing college many years ago and doing a stint at the emergency ward at a public hospital in Newark NJ.

In one night, she had two dead newborn infants brought in. One had been popped in a giant vat of boiling water,and the other had been roasted in the oven. Just two unrelated “incidents” that she had to participate in declaring the death and doing the paper work on.

Both mothers were mentally ill - probably not drugs back then, but just sick in the head and out of their minds with life’s problems and hunger and constant spousal abuse.

So you tell me that anyone thinks these children - one boiled and one roasted, born unwanted and then submitted to unbelievable suffering they could not comprehend… this child goes to hell for all eternity because nobody bothered to baptize them?

Please. If you believe this and then still worship this God, then you have problems beyond anything this board can help you with. I’d rather burn in hell for all eternity than worship such a God. Thankfully, I know this is not so. My God is infinitely loving and merciful - especially towards children, the poor, the disabled, the innocent.
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Thank you so very much for clarifying this, sojo-and I am so sorry about what these poor infants endured and your sister having to witness this sad situation. I am with you-there is no way that God in His compassion and love would send these little ones to eternal torments-I just don’t believe that God would do that.
 
BlueSapphire said:
God is outside of time, and I would hope that our future prayers for the unborn babies salvation would help get them to Heaven.

I know that the Church hasn’t approved/disproved Medjugorje, but one of the seers (mirjanna) asked Our Lady about what is the fate of aborted babies, and Our Lady replied that they were with her! I would like to think that it true!
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👍
 
wanner47 said:
Do you believe that God is limited by His own sacraments?
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Absolutely not! But there would be no point to the establishment of the sacraments if God just gives out free grace to anyone. If nobody has to receive the sacraments to be saved, then what is the purpose of them? If God were limited by the sacraments, then we would be worshiping them.

I would like to ask you something. Do you believe EVERYTHING that the Catholic Church teaches?
 
ajpirc said:
Absolutely not! But there would be no point to the establishment of the sacraments if God just gives out free grace to anyone. If nobody has to receive the sacraments to be saved, then what is the purpose of them? If God were limited by the sacraments, then we would be worshiping them.
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Do you know the difference between the ordinary means of salvation and extraordinary means of salvation?
I would like to ask you something. Do you believe EVERYTHING that the Catholic Church teaches?
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Absolutely, 100%.
 
wanner47 said:
Absolutely, 100%.
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So you agree that there is no salvation outside of the Church, through baptism? And that even Protestants can gain salvation if they’ve been baptized?

The Church clearly tells us, as dogma, that one must be baptized to gain salvation because:
  1. As I said earlier, it washes away the stain of original sin that has separated us from God because of Adam and Eve and
  2. It incorporates us into the Church which, as many Church Fathers have stated, is prefigured in the Old Testament as the ark that saved Noah, his wife, his sons, and his sons’ wives (plus all the animals). Those who were not on the ark were killed.
 
ajpirc said:
So you agree that there is no salvation outside of the Church, through baptism? And that even Protestants can gain salvation if they’ve been baptized?
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I agree that baptism is the ordinary means of salvation, yes.
The Church clearly tells us, as dogma, that one must be baptized to gain salvation because:
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  1. As I said earlier, it washes away the stain of original sin that has separated us from God because of Adam and Eve and
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  1. It incorporates us into the Church which, as many Church Fathers have stated, is prefigured in the Old Testament as the ark that saved Noah, his wife, his sons, and his sons’ wives (plus all the animals). Those who were not on the ark were killed.
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Agreed, but as I previously stated, baptism is the ordinary means of salvation. What we are talking about in the case of unborn children is the EXTRAORDINARY means of salvation, which the Church has said is possible for God to perform. We are permitted to trust in His mercy in this regard.
 
Infants who die without water baptism are trusted to the Mercy of God. We can hope for their salvation, but not presume it. This is because based on the Church teachings-
  1. all are conceived in original sin and lacking grace
  2. For those who do not have the use of reason, water baptism is the only way we can get rid of original sin and give sanctifying grace
  3. Original sin causes one to be punished in hell
  4. Limbo is the fringe of hell- meaning- it is where those who die in original sin alone are punished with the loss of the beatific vision but not with the fires of hell. The speculation is to what they actually experience- is it natural happiness? is it perfect natural happiness? or is there suffering involved?
The reason we hope for the salvation for unbaptized infants is because it is not revealed if God takes away original sin and gives grace outside of the sacrament of baptism to these infants- and if he does- how so? We know that God can do this and is all love and mercy. But we also know that God is not BOUND to do this. NO ONE has a RIGHT to heaven, no matter what. And even if a baby has a cruel death, that does not somehow give them the right to heaven, heaven is always an undeserved gift. Anyway, As one poster stated, The Aquinas idea of Limbo is what most picture as heaven! Its really good, and its a gift! (and also, idk but is it possible that souls in heaven, God, and angels could be in communion with those in limbo? i think possibly, so although the souls in limbo would be separated from God in that they do not possess a share in his glory, they may actually have some sort of relationship with the saints… more speculation maybe I’m wrong?).
tonyrey said:
I don’t believe even lack of desire on the part of their parents is a good reason for unbaptized infants to be excluded from heaven through no fault of their own.
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Yes, its not their fault, but God is not bound to give anyone heaven/sanctifying grace. He offered it to all in Adam and Eve, they rejected it.
ajpirc said:
So you agree that there is no salvation outside of the Church, through baptism? And that even Protestants can gain salvation if they’ve been baptized?

The Church clearly tells us, as dogma, that one must be baptized to gain salvation because:
  1. As I said earlier, it washes away the stain of original sin that has separated us from God because of Adam and Eve and
  2. It incorporates us into the Church which, as many Church Fathers have stated, is prefigured in the Old Testament as the ark that saved Noah, his wife, his sons, and his sons’ wives (plus all the animals). Those who were not on the ark were killed.
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As for salvation outside the Church, the teaching is that those who are outside the Church but invincibly ignorant can be saved if they have perfect love for God and hold elements of the true faith. In this way they are connected to the Church through an unconscious desire and longing, and God, judging the heart, will save them in union with the Church even if they are not water baptized.

One last comment- Medjugorje is not approved and it should not be trusted b/c of what it says about other religions and it commands disobedience. There are other reasons that it seems false but I will not go into that here because private revelations are not supposed to be discussed if not approved.
 
TomD123 said:
Yes, its not their fault, but God is not bound to give anyone heaven/sanctifying grace. He offered it to all in Adam and Eve, they rejected it.
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God is bound to all by His love for us and He will never cease to love us.
 
ajpirc said:
He will never cease to love those in Hell either, but did He save them?
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Those in Hell chose to be there, and God respected that choice.

Do you believe that unborn babies choose to go to Hell?
 
wanner47 said:
Those in Hell chose to be there, and God respected that choice.

Do you believe that unborn babies choose to go to Hell?
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No, because they can’t choose to go anywhere.

If I choose to go to Heaven, will God respect my choice and send me right to Heaven? No, I have to work out my salvation. Not everybody in Hell chose to go their. Some believed that if they believed in Jesus, then they’d be saved, but they have to have works too. It doesn’t make sense to say that you go somewhere because you chose to.

Those who have not been baptized have not been saved.
 
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