What happened to Limbo?

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Will_S said:
Anti-Catholic potshots from apostates aren’t necessary or useful.
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Can you tell me how my statement “God didn’t teach that. Men did, mere men claiming to speak for God.” was factually inaccurate?
 
ajpirc said:
No, because they can’t choose to go anywhere.

If I choose to go to Heaven, will God respect my choice and send me right to Heaven? No, I have to work out my salvation. Not everybody in Hell chose to go their. Some believed that if they believed in Jesus, then they’d be saved, but they have to have works too. It doesn’t make sense to say that you go somewhere because you chose to.

Those who have not been baptized have not been saved.
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If you choose to go to Heaven, it logically follows that you will do what is required of you to get to Heaven.

If you choose to go to hell, you will deliberately choose NOT to do what is required of you to get to Heaven, and furthermore you actively reject God.

Do think unborn children actively reject God?

Those who have been baptized have not been saved, but God can possibly work outside if His own sacraments and grant baptism of desire to those unborn babies whose parents desired them to be baptized once they were eligible for baptism (i.e., once they had been born).
 
wanner47 said:
If you choose to go to Heaven, it logically follows that you will do what is required of you to get to Heaven.

If you choose to go to hell, you will deliberately choose NOT to do what is required of you to get to Heaven, and furthermore you actively reject God.

Do think unborn children actively reject God?

Those who have been baptized have not been saved, but God can possibly work outside if His own sacraments and grant baptism of desire to those unborn babies whose parents desired them to be baptized once they were eligible for baptism (i.e., once they had been born).
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I do not have the Diary in front of me at this moment, but I think Jesus said something to the effect that His greatest sorrow was that people do not trust in his mercy. Thus, Jesus, I trust in you.

The lack of trust in the mercy of Jesus is evident in this thread, sad to say.

Some just do not understand EXTRAORDINARY means of salvation. They lack trust in Jesus and lack trust in what the Church teaches.
 
wanner47 said:
Those who have been baptized have not been saved, but God can possibly work outside if His own sacraments and grant baptism of desire to those unborn babies whose parents desired them to be baptized once they were eligible for baptism (i.e., once they had been born).
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That should, of course, say “Those who have not been baptized have not been saved…”
 
tonyrey said:
To believe unbaptized infants could be suffering the torments of Hell is alien to the teaching of Jesus that God is our loving Father and merely serves to bring Christianity into disrepute.
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Congratulations, you’ve just excommunicated the Fathers of the Church.
 
wanner47 said:
I find it so puzzling how so many can believe that God is limited by His own sacraments
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I don’t think anyone believes that.
wanner47 said:
Is it possible that Limbo exists? The church says yes. But She also says it’s even more likey that our all-powerful, loving God has mercy on those children who die before birth or shortly thereafter, and works outside of His ordinary means of salvation to save them as well.
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The Church says no such thing. And I think that’s the problem you are having. The Church has said that it is permissible to hope. That’s all. If the Church believed that unbaptized infants go to Heaven, then the Church would not ask us to baptize them.

Did you know that it is a mortal sin to neglect the baptism of your children? Why would that be the case if the Church thought that unbaptized infants who die go to Heaven?
 
Will_S said:
Congratulations, you’ve just excommunicated the Fathers of the Church.
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Nonsense! It has never been the official doctrine of the Church that unbaptized infants could be suffering the torments of Hell. That belief is alien to the teaching of Jesus that God is our loving Father and it undoubtedly serves to bring Christianity into disrepute.
 
sojo said:
Exactly!

My sister was in nursing college many years ago and doing a stint at the emergency ward at a public hospital in Newark NJ.

In one night, she had two dead newborn infants brought in. One had been popped in a giant vat of boiling water,and the other had been roasted in the oven. Just two unrelated “incidents” that she had to participate in declaring the death and doing the paper work on.

Both mothers were mentally ill - probably not drugs back then, but just sick in the head and out of their minds with life’s problems and hunger and constant spousal abuse.

So you tell me that anyone thinks these children - one boiled and one roasted, born unwanted and then submitted to unbelievable suffering they could not comprehend… this child goes to hell for all eternity because nobody bothered to baptize them?

Please. If you believe this and then still worship this God, then you have problems beyond anything this board can help you with. I’d rather burn in hell for all eternity than worship such a God. Thankfully, I know this is not so. My God is infinitely loving and merciful - especially towards children, the poor, the disabled, the innocent.
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No you do not know that these unfortunate children went to Heaven. Because the Church does not know that.

Once again - no person, none, naturally has the right to go to Heaven. Only baptism gives us that right. Without baptism, those babies have no right to go to Heaven and so it would be fully just and right for them to not go to Heaven.

That is exactly why the existence of the Limbo of the infants has been a long-taught doctrine (but not dogma) of the Church. Because the Church knows of no way for unbaptized infants to go to Heaven, it has taught that such infants enjoy eternal natural happiness instead of suffering the torments of hell.
 
Indyann said:
I do not have the Diary in front of me at this moment, but I think Jesus said something to the effect that His greatest sorrow was that people do not trust in his mercy. Thus, Jesus, I trust in you.

The lack of trust in the mercy of Jesus is evident in this thread, sad to say.

Some just do not understand EXTRAORDINARY means of salvation. They lack trust in Jesus and lack trust in what the Church teaches.
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You have done well to point out that fact in the face of vain attempts to resuscitate Limbo!
 
Will_S said:
I don’t think anyone believes that.
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Many in this thread seem to, given their belief that unborn babies who die before baptism can’t possibly be in heaven.
The Church says no such thing.
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Really?

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Sure sounds like it to me.
And I think that’s the problem you are having. The Church has said that it is permissible to hope. That’s all. If the Church believed that unbaptized infants go to Heaven, then the Church would not ask us to baptize them.
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Did you know that it is a mortal sin to neglect the baptism of your children? Why would that be the case if the Church thought that unbaptized infants who die go to Heaven?
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Not at all. The Church requires us, as Catholics, to partake in the ORDINARY means of salvation – the Sacraments – as part of working toward our salvation with fear and trembling. Baptism by desire and blood are the EXTRAORDINARY means of salvation, and display God’s mercy to those who,** through no fault of their own**, were unable to participate in the ordinary means of salvation.

Unborn babies never had a chance to participate in the ordinary means of salvation because they were never born, and one has to first be physically born in order to be baptized.
 
tonyrey said:
As far as I’m concerned your final sentence puts an end to the discussion. 🙂
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That sentence is bone chilling. That person just put themselves in the place of God and dictated to God how He must be and what He must do. To write that sentence is to seriously risk eternal damnation.
 
TedDC said:
Can you tell me how my statement “God didn’t teach that. Men did, mere men claiming to speak for God.” was factually inaccurate?
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Sure. God preserves His Church from error:

“I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.”

“These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

“He that heareth you, heareth me”
 
Indyann said:
Some just do not understand EXTRAORDINARY means of salvation. They lack trust in Jesus and lack trust in what the Church teaches.
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The Church does not teach that unbaptized infants are saved.

The Church does teach that all those who die in original sin alone “go down straightaway to hell to be punished”
 
tonyrey said:
Nonsense! It has never been the official doctrine of the Church that unbaptized infants could be suffering the torments of Hell. That belief is alien to the teaching of Jesus that God is our loving Father and it undoubtedly serves to bring Christianity into disrepute.
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But it was, in fact, the belief and (officially taught) doctrine of most of the Fathers of the Church, who you now claim are “alien to the teaching that God is our loving Father” and who you claim “bring Christianity into disrepute.”
 
wanner47 said:
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Sure sounds like it to me.
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Not at all. This says “we may hope”. Which is true. It does not say “We are sure” or “It is likely”.
Unborn babies never had a chance to participate in the ordinary means of salvation because they were never born, and one has to first be physically born in order to be baptized.
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As already discussed, baptism of desire is an extraordinary means of sanctification for persons who are prevented by the Church, for a time, from baptism. It preserves justice for those who wish to be baptized immediately.

In the case of unbaptized infants justice is preserved when they do not go to Heaven because they, like all persons, have no right to Heaven.
 
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