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TedDC
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What have I said that makes you think that?
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wanner47
Guest
You said that the Bible was merely “words written by men, and interpreted by men…”
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Really? You know, I’m intrigued. You make the statement that “It wasn’t God talking, it was men --and if you believe it was God, prove it”–trying to act as though your ‘position’ was the ‘norm’ and it’s up to US to defend ours. . .
Well, I’ll turn that around. I think that the teachings of the Church ARE God speaking, through men. . .and I’m going to ask YOU to prove otherwise. Prove to me that it is ‘just men’. Prove that God could NOT be involved.
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tonyrey
Guest
I haven’t said anyone is ignorant of the doctrine of the Church but of the meaning of Christ’s love for us on the Cross. Since we disagree on the teaching of the Church on unbaptized infants we shall have to agree to disagree - without any hard feelings.
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alongexpected
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I think what he’s saying is that we have to look at the odds and of think what’s probably true. And that’s that there’s no higher power, because it defies nearly all logic. But hey, I could be wrong.
And if you want to get technical, the burden of proof is on you, the religious. When someone makes a positive claim, they need to prove it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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tonyrey
Guest
It’s an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence that the mind is the product of matter - against the consensus of humanity from time immemorial…
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wanner47
Guest
On the contrary, belief in God is extremely logical. St. Thomas Aquinas, C.S. Lewis, and G.K. Chesterton thought so (to name only a few).
And our proof is out there, in the form of the Catechism, the Church fathers, the great writers I mentioned above. I’ve yet to see a satisfactory rebuttal.
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dsmantz
Guest
You know, the main issue I see in this thread is not the belief of either or the two sides, but the lack of tact from both.
We must understand, despite believing in Limbo or not, that both are perfectly acceptable and worthy of belief stated by the Church in the Catechism and our two most recent Popes. I think if Joseph and Karol were able to get along, with conflicting beliefs, the least we can do is agree to disagree on an internet forum.
Will, you certainly are able to provide plenty of evidence for your belief and understanding of Limbo. I’m glad that you’re well versed in Scripture and Doctrine, but please, display tact and understanding to those with differing beliefs and understandings. We, as Catholics, are permitted to accept either one, and choose to do so. But, we can’t beat each other over the head with Scripture and quotes and say “I’m right and you’re wrong”. Lets all be understanding of another’s position, and use some tact.
Pax Christi.
We must understand, despite believing in Limbo or not, that both are perfectly acceptable and worthy of belief stated by the Church in the Catechism and our two most recent Popes. I think if Joseph and Karol were able to get along, with conflicting beliefs, the least we can do is agree to disagree on an internet forum.
Will, you certainly are able to provide plenty of evidence for your belief and understanding of Limbo. I’m glad that you’re well versed in Scripture and Doctrine, but please, display tact and understanding to those with differing beliefs and understandings. We, as Catholics, are permitted to accept either one, and choose to do so. But, we can’t beat each other over the head with Scripture and quotes and say “I’m right and you’re wrong”. Lets all be understanding of another’s position, and use some tact.
Pax Christi.
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TedDC
Guest
How does that lead you to conclude that I don’t believe in God? In fact I very much believe in God. And I think the Bible contains a great deal of wisdom, which one could say is God-inspired. But I don’t believe that the Bible is necessarily an inerrant record of God’s relationship with mankind, and hence I don’t believe the claims to authority which the Catholic Church makes on that basis.
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wanner47
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A Christian who doesn’t believe in the Bible. Interesting. Why do you believe in Jesus Christ’s divinity, then, if the Bible isn’t a reliable authority?
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TedDC
Guest
I’m not a Christian.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Your God is not the Triune God? Who is He, then? How did He speak to you?
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TedDC
Guest
Honestly, I don’t know much about Him. As for Him speaking to me, it’s through my conscience, at least as well as I’m able to hear.
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alongexpected
Guest
You named some respected thinkers as “evidence” for god. I can do the same for the opposite viewpoint. So we cancel out here. (now if you want to talk about their arguments, that’s a different story. But from what I’ve heard so far in life the answers point to rationalism, not religion).
About the catechism and church fathers as proof of gods existence, sigh, almost religions have holy books, revered figures, popes/beloved trusted leaders, etc. Their mere existence adds zero evidence, much less proof, to their respective sides.
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wanner47
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Well, there’s no “proof” that God exists, and there’s no proof that He doesn’t exist. I guess that’s where faith comes in. As for me, when I examine the logical arguments of Christianity opposed to other religions, Christianity has the better claim and the more logical arguments.
Given that I believe there is a God (again, based on the same logic and reason), I can only conclude that He is the God of Christianity; specifically, Catholicism.
TedDK, you believe in a God but not the God of Christianity. I’m curious, are you affiliated with any other religion (Islam, etc), or are you more of an agnostic?
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tonyrey
Guest
You are assuming it is possible to be rational if purposeless processes account for all that exists…
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TedDC
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Not really an agnostic; I firmly believe that God exists and that His existence can be supported by reason. It’s just that I’m deeply skeptical of all human claims to detailed knowledge about His nature.
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Kyrby_Caluna
Guest
What happened to Limbo? The hallucination was just treated. 
Limbo is the hallucination of some of the Church Fathers. It was never part of the dogma of the Catholic Church. Remember this, just like everyone else, the Church Fathers can also commit mistakes in their beliefs. In fact they were hallucinated by the idea of a limbo. 
Only the Magisterium can proclaim formally infallible teachings on faith and morals.
Limbo is the hallucination of some of the Church Fathers. It was never part of the dogma of the Catholic Church. Remember this, just like everyone else, the Church Fathers can also commit mistakes in their beliefs. In fact they were hallucinated by the idea of a limbo. Only the Magisterium can proclaim formally infallible teachings on faith and morals.
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mdgspencer
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While limbo has never been a doctrine of the Catholic Church, it seems likely that there is such a place. 1) Before Christ came, where did people who served God go when they died? So it seems there must have been a place besides heaven or hell (or purgatory which is a entrance to heaven.) No one went to heaven before Christ came. 2) The Old Testament prophet Elijah ascended to heaven, carried by a flaming chariot. Where did he go? It must be a place besides heaven, since no one went there before Christ came, a place of happiness (something St. Thomas Aquinas, by the way, also said.) 3) And of course, where do unbaptized babies go? Since limbo is not a doctrine, it is possible to believe that they go to heaven when they die–but then, what is baptism for, after all?
Why do Catholics no longer speak of limbo? This may be in part because when a Catholic dies they are instantly canonized. Funeral sermons are given in which the person is said to have entered heaven at the instant of death. (Frankly, I would not like this to happen in my case. I would rather the people be asked to help me then. I would rather that the people at my funeral were asked to pray for my soul, my soul in purgatory, if God numbers me then among the sheep rather the goats.)
Why do Catholics no longer speak of limbo? This may be in part because when a Catholic dies they are instantly canonized. Funeral sermons are given in which the person is said to have entered heaven at the instant of death. (Frankly, I would not like this to happen in my case. I would rather the people be asked to help me then. I would rather that the people at my funeral were asked to pray for my soul, my soul in purgatory, if God numbers me then among the sheep rather the goats.)
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wanner47
Guest
Do you believe in the possibility of salvation? That is, what do you believe happens to us when we die? Are we judged?
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