What happened to television westerns?

[adrift]

I am not sure about public interest anymore, but I would suspect we would have to correct a lot of the ideas we had about the “old west” and that may be why there are less of them. If you think about it, most of the old westerns depicted the American Indian as a rather mindless, and ruthless fool. Women were usually helpless souls, and the men either the total bad guy or hero.

A true to life western might actually be a good thing, but I don’t think most people would like it. Life was mean, many times women spent years alone working the land, while men sought work and were elsewhere, there were attacks by the Indians, but we usually attacked first and have to remember we took over their land and pushed them off it and out of their way of life, death rates where high, then we had slavery to deal with, the Chinese built our railways for us . . . etc. Sure there was good being done in all this, but there was also a high level of lawlessness and things were not that “romantic.”

I would rather see a western that was more truthful and honest, but I am sure many would find such a program less interesting than those with the old saloon, cowboys and Indians fighting, and successful ranches and farms. If you were not tough in those days you simply died.

Except for Texas, most of the Western period took place after the end of slavery; else you are spot on.

All historical periods are romanticized. We would find a truthful depiction of any of them to be disagreeable as entertainment.

ICXC NIKA

There were many things that were partially correct but spot on :nope: The American Indian was presented in many ways. This is about television not the movies. Television was more apt to present the Indians as intelligent put upon by the whites remember Tonto?
Women were presented as helpless? Well there was Barbara Stanwick, Gail Davis ,Jane Seymour, Amanda Blake and many more all who portrayed strong women. I would not describe a one of them as helpless.

westerns is where I learned about Chinese building the railroad was in the television western.

I watch for the entertainment value which usually means the escapism. If I want reality, I watch news.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I thought women were presented as strong too.

One of my favorite westerns as a girl was Annie Oakley.
Westerns showed men and women as very self reliant and self made.
I especially liked the westerns of the people going by wagon train and settling ib the west. I was proud of the pioneers who settled our country

John Wayne was one of my favorite actors along with James Stewart.
I also liked the movie The Searchers.

I used to love to visit old tucson and walk the same streets where john wayne had made so many movies.

 

[tabycat]

I do wish they would rerun Wagon train with Ward Bond. God Bless, Memaw

A cable station (KVOS) rerun Wagon Train (Ward Bond) along with Rawhide, Wanted Dead or Alive, Gunsmoke, Big Valley, and I think some others. Some are on weekdays and others on weekends.

 

[tabycat]

I am not sure about public interest anymore, but I would suspect we would have to correct a lot of the ideas we had about the “old west” and that may be why there are less of them. If you think about it, most of the old westerns depicted the American Indian as a rather mindless, and ruthless fool. Women were usually helpless souls, and the men either the total bad guy or hero.

A true to life western might actually be a good thing, but I don’t think most people would like it. Life was mean, many times women spent years alone working the land, while men sought work and were elsewhere, there were attacks by the Indians, but we usually attacked first and have to remember we took over their land and pushed them off it and out of their way of life, death rates where high, then we had slavery to deal with, the Chinese built our railways for us . . . etc. Sure there was good being done in all this, but there was also a high level of lawlessness and things were not that “romantic.”

I would rather see a western that was more truthful and honest, but I am sure many would find such a program less interesting than those with the old saloon, cowboys and Indians fighting, and successful ranches and farms. If you were not tough in those days you simply died.

Let me see now, Miss Kitty ran the Long Branch Saloon on Gunsmoke. Women, on TV westerns, ran ranchs (The Big Valley), saloons (Gunsmoke) and boarding houses (The Rifleman). The treatment of Indians was all over the place (Danial Boone, Broken Arrow, Lone Ranger, F Troop [everybody looked goofy in that show!]) Westerns were/are not any better or worse then any other type of show.

 

[Memaw]

A cable station (KVOS) rerun Wagon Train (Ward Bond) along with Rawhide, Wanted Dead or Alive, Gunsmoke, Big Valley, and I think some others. Some are on weekdays and others on weekends.

Wish they would do that on our cable. I liked Wagon Train and Rawhide both.We get Gunsmoke and Bonanza and Andy Griffith. God Bless, Memaw

 

[mexolic]

Bonanza and The Rifleman depicted strong decent fathers. And The Big Valley with Barbara Stanwyck as a strong decent mother. Would Hollywood depict characters like that in any tv western today? Stick to the good old tv westerns.

 

[tomarin]

There are occasionally Western series on television, such as Doctor Quinn, Medicine Woman or Deadwood but for the most part Westerns on the big and small screens have been out of fashion since I was a kid. We will probably never go back to the golden age in which Westerns were considered inexpensive-to-make family entertainment.

If I had to identify one particular reason that this change came about I would say it was that at some point the audience began to identify more with the Indians and their vanishing cultures than with the cowboys and frontiers-people. Part of what made Westerns so popular in earlier decades was that many Americans identified with the settlers who had conquered the West as these were their grandparents and great-grandparents (in theory at least).

 

[KevinAK]

There aint no John Wayne no more…westerns were never the same after his passing…The Searchers was the greatest western ever made…Lonesome Dove…the greatest mini series ever made…Longmire…so far the greatest modern day western series…now people just want Brokeback Mountain type westerns…

Actually, The Coen brothers adaptation of True Grit was very good.

 

[Cat]

There are occasionally Western series on television, such as Doctor Quinn, Medicine Woman or Deadwood but for the most part Westerns on the big and small screens have been out of fashion since I was a kid. We will probably never go back to the golden age in which Westerns were considered inexpensive-to-make family entertainment.

If I had to identify one particular reason that this change came about I would say it was that at some point the audience began to identify more with the Indians and their vanishing cultures than with the cowboys and frontiers-people. Part of what made Westerns so popular in earlier decades was that many Americans identified with the settlers who had conquered the West as these were their grandparents and great-grandparents (in theory at least).

I agree with this.

It is difficult to correctly write about and portray Native Americans today. There are truly many Native Americans who were portrayed as villains in the past who would rightfully be portrayed as heroes today. I’m sure the entertainment industry is not quite sure how that switch will be accepted by the public. Their “business” is to produce movies and TV shows that make a profit–there’s nothing evil about that. Many thousands of working people in the industry depend on hit movies for their wages, and it will do them no good if the industry produces a run of movies that bomb at the box office.

I’m guessing that a lot of older folks would have a difficult time accepting a Western in which the Indians are portrayed as the heroes and the cowboys are portrayed as the villains. That would mean a bomb at the box office or on the television network, and that’s not good.

However, I’m guessing that a lot of young people might have trouble accepting ANY kind of Western because they aren’t quite sure what the historical truth is–were the settlers and cowboys REALLY the bad guys who threw the innocent Native Americans out? Or were they good guys/missionaries who sought to live side by side with the Native Americans? And were the Native Americans REALLY heroes who just wanted to live in peace? Or were they vicious savages who enjoyed torturing the innocent?

It’s hard to “sell” a Western when people aren’t sure what to cheer for.

Also, whether we like it or not, Westerns will be filled with lots of violence and bloodshed, not just because of battles between Native Americans and settlers/cowboys, but because the West was truly a lawless place and there were a lot of people who made the most of the opportunity to give way to their “criminal” nature. Also, life itself was rough–lots of people died of epidemics, in childbirth, of childhood diseases, of accidents in the wilderness. And back then, criminals were executed by hanging, and everyone in town showed up to watch–eugh!

Frankly, I don’t like watching icky stuff like that. I think other women might feel the same way I do.

I would love to see a really good film about Chief Blackhawk, whose name is all over my part of the U.S. (Northern Illinois).

I would love to see a television series about the city of St. Louis during the days when it was the “last stop” for settlers headed West. There is a lot of documentation about what life was like in St. Louis back then, and I think it would make excellent TV entertainment. Every con artist and crook in the country found work in St. Louis back then taking advantage of gullible people. And the city itself was booming–lots of wonderful buildings and bridges going up and political battles, and of course, the Busch family vs. the Lemp family in the struggle to become the top brewers–so many hopes and dreams were being worked on in that city during those decades. I just think this would be a great series and I wish Anheuser-Busch would consider becoming a sponsor. Perhaps the main characters in the city could be the Busch family and the Lemp family–every good “soap” needs “the rich families living up on the hill.”

Another movie I would like to see is a really REALLY good adaptation of Laura Ingalls Wilder’s excellent children’s book, The Long Winter. There is a lot of action in that book, which, BTW, treats Native Americans with an almost awe-filled respect–It was a Native American man who warned the settlers about the upcoming terrible winter at the very beginning of the book. There is also a lot of human drama in that book. I keep hoping that one day, I’ll sit down and write the screenplay myself, but I know what will happen–no one in the industry will be interested. Rats.

Basically, what I’m saying is that pitching a Western to a producer is a very tough sell these days. Lots of good stories still out there, but getting a producer to listen is really hard.

 

[mexolic]

I’ve seen many tv westerns. The bad guys were usually non-Native Americans. Bank robbers, horse rustlers, train robbers etc. The negative depiction of Native Americans was probably minor. I would say people back then knew the tv westerns were simply entertainment. How much of historical accuracy if any, really matters? How much accuracy is there in today’s tv shows? Maybe better scripts, fine actors and a good message is what people want.

 

[tomarin]

Also, whether we like it or not, Westerns will be filled with lots of violence and bloodshed,

No doubt that’s a big part of the appeal. This is partly why I like spaghetti Westerns more than classic Westerns, or to put it more accurately, I eventually grew to like classic Westerns because of my interest in spaghetti Westerns. One turn-off about the classic Westerns was how the characters no matter how much outdoor life and action they saw always wore immaculate clothing that looked like it had been pressed at a dry-cleaner’s just minutes before. That still makes me laugh.

(As aside: until I “discovered” spaghetti and then classic Westerns, I had zero interest in the genre, but I was a huge science fiction fan. My theory is that for young people at least, you can be a fan of Westerns or a fan of science fiction, but it has to be one or the other, not both.)

I would love to see a television series about the city of St. Louis during the days when it was the “last stop” for settlers headed West. There is a lot of documentation about what life was like in St. Louis back then, and I think it would make excellent TV entertainment. Every con artist and crook in the country found work in St. Louis back then taking advantage of gullible people. And the city itself was booming–lots of wonderful buildings and bridges going up and political battles, and of course, the Busch family vs. the Lemp family in the struggle to become the top brewers–so many hopes and dreams were being worked on in that city during those decades. I just think this would be a great series and I wish Anheuser-Busch would consider becoming a sponsor. Perhaps the main characters in the city could be the Busch family and the Lemp family–every good “soap” needs “the rich families living up on the hill.”

Yes, a Western series set in St. Louis would definitely be a cool thing. Wasn’t the James Garner series “Maverick” a little like that? I wasn’t born yet when it aired and it never appeared in syndication where I grew up, so I’ve never seen it.

A series set in St. Louis in the nineteenth century should definitely have a lot of German or German-American characters in it, and deal with the German immigrant experience, as you intimated by talking about Anheiser-Busch.

Or if it didn’t deal with Western themes, it could deal with early jazz and blues. Black and back-country musicians, riverboats, gambling and loose women, etc.

 

[Luvz2travel]

I saw television westerns as a kid. Bonanza, Gunsmoke, The Wild Wild West, Alias Smith and Jones. And watching those old rerun favorites like Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, The Lone Ranger and The Big Valley. Have television audiences lost interest in westerns? Are westerns not for today’s television audiences? Or is it not politically correct to make one?

They still make some from time to time.

Dr. Quinn Medicine Women
Lonesome Dove
HBO had Deadwood

Those are all I can think of at the moment. Shows come in and out of vogue. Now it’s Realty shows, Crime/Police or Detective Dramas and Scifi. Used to be Sitcoms and Hospital shows in the 80s. In 10 years maybe they will be back again who knows. I the Reality genre is kind of hitting it’s last legs so to speak.

 

[Cat]

I’ve seen many tv westerns. The bad guys were usually non-Native Americans. Bank robbers, horse rustlers, train robbers etc. The negative depiction of Native Americans was probably minor. I would say people back then knew the tv westerns were simply entertainment. How much of historical accuracy if any, really matters? How much accuracy is there in today’s tv shows? Maybe better scripts, fine actors and a good message is what people want.

You raise a good point about accuracy. I work in a hospital lab, and it cracks me up when I see those CSI shows doing DNA testing–stick the “specimen” in a white box, press a button, and a few minutes later, conclusive results!

However, even if a show is not accurate, one thing you can’t get away with today is any kind of “ism”–racism, classism, sexism. Except for making fun of fat people and Christians, and sometimes, straight men–those groups are still OK to stereotype and ridicule.

Seriously, any depiction of Native Americans has to be spot-on-accurate and/or extremely dignified nowadays. Think about all the sports teams with Native American names, professional and school, who have been compelled to change their names. It’s just not a group that you can mess with anymore. I can’t say I blame them for wanting to make sure that their history is accurately depicted.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It seems to me a shame that they don’t make westerns anymore. Actually, it is my impression that most were made for kids to watch. Many were the fare of the old “Saturday Matinees” in which the audience was almost entirely kids. The plots were simple, the morals straightforward.

It seems to me that, yes, the good guys were all good and the bad guys were usually all bad, though some repented in the end. The women were often very strong characters, and often the Indians were portrayed as noble and brave, though not always. In that way, sometimes they were not historically accurate since some Indian tribes were incredibly savage and cruel, far more so than depicted.

They were simple morality plays for children, and I regret their loss. I’m not terribly fond of most “westerns” nowadays because they are either very inaccurate historically (like “Dances with wolves”) in order to make a sociological point, or too complicated for kids to follow. Sometimes the morals leave much to be desired for a young audience.

However, I will praise “Lonesome Dove”. Some flaws, definitely some thinly veiled immorality. But I don’t think all kids pick those things up. But the general moral tone is straightforward and decent. Call is somewhat mixed, but brave, noble in his way, and direct. Gus is charming, brave, witty and every inch a man, one who treats women exceptionally well and sensitively without being unmanned by it. Blue Duck is as bad as bad gets. Clara is the “take charge woman” in the piece, no shrinking violet. Some Mexicans, like Po Campo, are extremely good; one Mexican cattle baron is also a cattle thief. The black character, Deets, is as good a man as ever walked the earth, as well as being extraordinarily competent.

Not bad.

Some of the costuming in the old westerns was preposterous and the historical inaccuracies were grotesque at times. But still, it seems to me it would not be impossible to make a “for kids” western with a little more historical accuracy that was interesting and a good “morality play.” I think the likelihood of that is not strong simply because nobody really wants to portray clear morality anymore in much of anything.

But kids could benefit from it.

 

[Luvz2travel]

You raise a good point about accuracy. I work in a hospital lab, and it cracks me up when I see those CSI shows doing DNA testing–stick the “specimen” in a white box, press a button, and a few minutes later, conclusive results!

However, even if a show is not accurate, one thing you can’t get away with today is any kind of “ism”–racism, classism, sexism. Except for making fun of fat people and Christians, and sometimes, straight men–those groups are still OK to stereotype and ridicule.

Seriously, any depiction of Native Americans has to be spot-on-accurate and/or extremely dignified nowadays. Think about all the sports teams with Native American names, professional and school, who have been compelled to change their names. It’s just not a group that you can mess with anymore. I can’t say I blame them for wanting to make sure that their history is accurately depicted.

Well honestly I think Native American should be respected after all the years of redicule and disrespect they had to endure and still have to put up with. My grandfather was Native American and never complained about the lack of respect or representation just for the record. Everybody deserves respect that’s one truth tv has lost.

 

[tomarin]

It seems to me a shame that they don’t make westerns anymore. Actually, it is my impression that most were made for kids to watch. Many were the fare of the old “Saturday Matinees” in which the audience was almost entirely kids. The plots were simple, the morals straightforward.

It seems to me that, yes, the good guys were all good and the bad guys were usually all bad, though some repented in the end. The women were often very strong characters, and often the Indians were portrayed as noble and brave, though not always. In that way, sometimes they were not historically accurate since some Indian tribes were incredibly savage and cruel, far more so than depicted.

They were simple morality plays for children, and I regret their loss. I’m not terribly fond of most “westerns” nowadays because they are either very inaccurate historically (like “Dances with wolves”) in order to make a sociological point, or too complicated for kids to follow. Sometimes the morals leave much to be desired for a young audience.

However, I will praise “Lonesome Dove”. Some flaws, definitely some thinly veiled immorality. But I don’t think all kids pick those things up. But the general moral tone is straightforward and decent. Call is somewhat mixed, but brave, noble in his way, and direct. Gus is charming, brave, witty and every inch a man, one who treats women exceptionally well and sensitively without being unmanned by it. Blue Duck is as bad as bad gets. Clara is the “take charge woman” in the piece, no shrinking violet. Some Mexicans, like Po Campo, are extremely good; one Mexican cattle baron is also a cattle thief. The black character, Deets, is as good a man as ever walked the earth, as well as being extraordinarily competent.

Not bad.

Some of the costuming in the old westerns was preposterous and the historical inaccuracies were grotesque at times. But still, it seems to me it would not be impossible to make a “for kids” western with a little more historical accuracy that was interesting and a good “morality play.” I think the likelihood of that is not strong simply because nobody really wants to portray clear morality anymore in much of anything.

But kids could benefit from it.

The only silver lining here is that I think there is still an audience for a variety of films that are more or less ‘westerns’ although they may be truly more about frontierspeople struggling to survive in early American (or Canadian) history. I’m thinking of a movie called “Black Robe” from the early 1990’s as an example of what I mean.

 

[4Squarebaby]

It seems to me a shame that they don’t make westerns anymore. Actually, it is my impression that most were made for kids to watch. Many were the fare of the old “Saturday Matinees” in which the audience was almost entirely kids. The plots were simple, the morals straightforward.

It seems to me that, yes, the good guys were all good and the bad guys were usually all bad, though some repented in the end. The women were often very strong characters, and often the Indians were portrayed as noble and brave, though not always. In that way, sometimes they were not historically accurate since some Indian tribes were incredibly savage and cruel, far more so than depicted.

They were simple morality plays for children, and I regret their loss. I’m not terribly fond of most “westerns” nowadays because they are either very inaccurate historically (like “Dances with wolves”) in order to make a sociological point, or too complicated for kids to follow. Sometimes the morals leave much to be desired for a young audience.

However, I will praise “Lonesome Dove”. Some flaws, definitely some thinly veiled immorality. But I don’t think all kids pick those things up. But the general moral tone is straightforward and decent. Call is somewhat mixed, but brave, noble in his way, and direct. Gus is charming, brave, witty and every inch a man, one who treats women exceptionally well and sensitively without being unmanned by it. Blue Duck is as bad as bad gets. Clara is the “take charge woman” in the piece, no shrinking violet. Some Mexicans, like Po Campo, are extremely good; one Mexican cattle baron is also a cattle thief. The black character, Deets, is as good a man as ever walked the earth, as well as being extraordinarily competent.

Not bad.

Some of the costuming in the old westerns was preposterous and the historical inaccuracies were grotesque at times. But still, it seems to me it would not be impossible to make a “for kids” western with a little more historical accuracy that was interesting and a good “morality play.” I think the likelihood of that is not strong simply because nobody really wants to portray clear morality anymore in much of anything.

But kids could benefit from it.

Maybe the B movies were made for kids but not Western TV. It began with the half hour morality plays with the moral gunslinger and then later we got the hour “dramadies” with the rich landowner families that dominated there corner of the world. And by the 1970s the Cartwright’s, Barcley’s and Cannon’s were not politically good guys even if they acted for the greater good and were racially progressive on their respective shows. But they were adult shows and dealt with adult themes, even if there was gunfire in every third episode.I don’t think production economics were a big problem since the sets still exist on the studio lots and viewers really could not say that’s not Manhattan, that is Toronto

 

[Ridgerunner]

Maybe the B movies were made for kids but not Western TV. It began with the half hour morality plays with the moral gunslinger and then later we got the hour “dramadies” with the rich landowner families that dominated there corner of the world. And by the 1970s the Cartwright’s, Barcley’s and Cannon’s were not politically good guys even if they acted for the greater good and were racially progressive on their respective shows. But they were adult shows and dealt with adult themes, even if there was gunfire in every third episode.I don’t think production economics were a big problem since the sets still exist on the studio lots and viewers really could not say that’s not Manhattan, that is Toronto

Your first sentence is true in part. A lot of the early TV westerns (and other adventure movies and serials) were re-runs of the old “matinee movies”. Later on, yes, they did produce westerns specifically for TV.

 

[tomarin]

Maybe the B movies were made for kids but not Western TV. It began with the half hour morality plays with the moral gunslinger and then later we got the hour “dramadies” with the rich landowner families that dominated there corner of the world. And by the 1970s the Cartwright’s, Barcley’s and Cannon’s were not politically good guys even if they acted for the greater good and were racially progressive on their respective shows. But they were adult shows and dealt with adult themes, even if there was gunfire in every third episode.I don’t think production economics were a big problem since the sets still exist on the studio lots and viewers really could not say that’s not Manhattan, that is Toronto

Yes, plus if you wanted an outdoor scene (say a posse going out to find someone) you could just move the production to the nearby desert and mountains of southern California. No big deal.