What happened to the Heideggerians?

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Well, since the subject is Heidegger, as an aside, I just completed reading an interesting article on him from last month’s First Things Religious Journal by David Bentley Hart, one portion of which reads:

"What, in the end, should we think of Heidegger’s genealogy of nihilism? It seems clear to me that we should neither embrace it nor reject it as a whole. The most unfortunately Hegelian element in Heidegger’s thought is its drive toward total synopsis. His account of the history of metaphysics is simply too uniform and comprehensive in its claims, and as a result it misrepresents or fails to account for other realities about the history of Western thought that cannot intelligibly be treated as part of a larger history of nihilism.

Of course, Heidegger was willing to grant that Western philosophy had never been nihilistic through and through. But he rarely demonstrated any very keen awareness of the ways in which, for instance, Plato’s understanding of the Form of the Good, or certain Christian understandings of the analogy between transcendent and created being (and so on), open up paths that certainly cannot terminate in nihilism. And he certainly never considered the possibility that the only way to preserve being’s self-disclosure against the human longing for conceptual mastery of reality might be a fully developed metaphysics of transcendent being. That, though, is an argument for another time.

What should be said here is that Heidegger’s renunciation of metaphysics did not, in the end, allow him to produce a coherent ontology of his own. His efforts to describe the relation of being to beings in purely immanent terms ultimately added up to very little; certainly they did not provide any convincing answers to such perennial questions as why there are beings at all. At most, all he could do was point to temporality, the ceaseless flow of beings out of nothingness and into nothingness again, and then—in a gesture that often seems as much one of hopelessness as of “piety”—point away toward the mysterious Ereignis, the “appropriating event,” that somehow brings this about.

Because he had left himself no room for any kind of language of analogy, which might have allowed him to say how transcendent being shows itself in immanent existence while still preserving its transcendence, and because, moreover, he had decided in advance that one cannot speak of being in other than temporal terms, he really could not escape lapsing into a certain fatalism regarding the history he described. Even he had to admit that, if there is no metaphysically “correct” way for being to show itself, perhaps the age of technology really is the next “proper” moment in being’s dispensation. If so, all he could do was hope that there might still be a truly human way of inhabiting the world that is coming to pass."

for the full article go to: firstthings.com/article/2011/01/a-philosopher-in-the-twilight
 
Well, since the subject is Heidegger, as an aside, I just completed reading an interesting article on him from last month’s First Things Religious Journal by David Bentley Hart …
This article raises important issues … but it is still possible to learn from Heidegger … for example, about the interplay of presence and absence which “defines” our experience of Being … this sounds cryptic but it’s helpful in understanding metaphysics … our experience of the presence of the world is circumscribed by our anticipation of death (the primordial absence) … without our knowing about human mortality (our not being here in the world), there could not be no sense of our being here in the world and hence no science of metaphysics … this is not to deny an afterlife …
 
KyivAndrew;7628059:
Well, since the subject is Heidegger, as an aside, I just completed reading an interesting article on him from last month’s First Things
Religious Journal by David Bentley Hart …

This article raises important issues … but it is still possible to learn from Heidegger … for example, about the interplay of presence and absence which “defines” our experience of Being … this sounds cryptic but it’s helpful in understanding metaphysics … our experience of the presence of the world is circumscribed by our anticipation of death (the primordial absence) … without our knowing about human mortality (our not being here in the world), there could not be no sense of our being here in the world and hence no science of metaphysics … this is not to deny an afterlife …
I meant to say: “there could not be a sense of our being here in the world” …
 
KyivAndrew;7628059:
Well, since the subject is Heidegger, as an aside, I just completed reading an interesting article on him from last month’s First Things
Religious Journal by David Bentley Hart …

This article raises important issues … but it is still possible to learn from Heidegger … for example, about the interplay of presence and absence which “defines” our experience of Being … this sounds cryptic but it’s helpful in understanding metaphysics … our experience of the presence of the world is circumscribed by our anticipation of death (the primordial absence) … without our knowing about human mortality (our not being here in the world), there could not be no sense of our being here in the world and hence no science of metaphysics … this is not to deny an afterlife …
I’m not sure that is the case. This might be one of the places where death is overplayed. We could very well have a sense of being here without being-toward-death. However, being-towards-death provides us with a different sense of meaning of Dasein than if we didn’t die or had knowledge of our own eventual death. The meaning changes but such a change does not necessarily create a negation of meaning.
 
levinas12;7636895:
I’m not sure that is the case. This might be one of the places where death is overplayed. We could very well have a sense of being here without being-toward-death. However, being-towards-death provides us with a different sense of meaning of Dasein than if we didn’t die or had knowledge of our own eventual death. The meaning changes but such a change does not necessarily create a negation of meaning.
If “to be here” is “to be here in the world”, then death, as “ceasing to be here in the world”, would seem to define the limit of our “possibilities” in time and space … again, I’m speaking of our natural condition … our body is our insertion in the world (Merleau Ponty) … the zero point (Husserl) … without our body, no time, no space … now this does not preclude a supernatural dimension … but it seems that, without “being toward death”, no more Dasein … no sense of presence and absence … at least as experienced in this life … maybe you could elaborate a bit more on your position … I’m not sure how all this affects the philosophical argument for the natural immortality of the individual human soul … Aristotle did not seem to subscribe to such an argument … and I’m not even sure about Plato … this does not rule out a supernatural act on the part of God … I hope I’m not being too Kantian
 
If “to be here” is “to be here in the world”, then death, as “ceasing to be here in the world”, would seem to define the limit of our “possibilities” in time and space … again, I’m speaking of our natural condition … our body is our insertion in the world (Merleau Ponty) … the zero point (Husserl) … without our body, no time, no space … now this does not preclude a supernatural dimension … but it seems that, without “being toward death”, no more Dasein … no sense of presence and absence … at least as experienced in this life … maybe you could elaborate a bit more on your position … I’m not sure how all this affects the philosophical argument for the natural immortality of the individual human soul … Aristotle did not seem to subscribe to such an argument … and I’m not even sure about Plato … this does not rule out a supernatural act on the part of God … I hope I’m not being too Kantian
Admittedly I am doing a Boethean (one could use Clarke or Kreeft just as easily) move. I’m using a known position of faith to test a possible philosophical position.

My test is the use of the prelapsarian state, which did not include death as a natural possibility for man. While some may find this “out of bounds” I think that it is possible to speak of a Christian Philosophy just as one can speak of an Islamic Philosophy, i.e., where the religious tenets help serve philosophy as differentiated from a theology which is the reverse.

Applying this test to the thought of Heidegger I think we can find a flaw in his analysis unless we limit his analysis to man apart from such a state. However, this would seem to come into problems with his notion of being ‘thrown’ because there would always be an historic echo of man being in the world in such a way that death was not a possibility.

This would not be an issue for any of the Classical Greek philosophers because such a possibility for man would have been unthinkable except as myth. So they could only speak about an undying in a counter factual way. Also, the undying man would still be in some way towards-death but in a different way. This counter factual man would be placed in opposition to the factual man who is toward-death as the end of possibility. The uncanny for the counter factual man would still find itself being caught-up by his similarity but also his radical difference (I want to say differentness here) from the factual man with relation to death. So, nothing has changed except to create a mythical man to draw out what is the case for the actual man.
 
My test is the use of the prelapsarian state, which did not include death as a natural possibility for man.
I need to think about this … would Heidegger’s reliance on “being-towards-death” pose a problem for Catholics … given that it’s structural … what were Adam’s existentialia before the fall … how could there be “absence” without “being-towards-death”… but without “absence”, how could there be temporality (and derivatively, spatiality) … our sense of “here” involves the possibility of “not being here” … this is not just Heidegger, but also Hegel … and what about contingency … without contingency, no Christian theology …
 
I need to think about this … would Heidegger’s reliance on “being-towards-death” pose a problem for Catholics … given that it’s structural … what were Adam’s existentialia before the fall … how could there be “absence” without “being-towards-death”… but without “absence”, how could there be temporality (and derivatively, spatiality) … our sense of “here” involves the possibility of “not being here” … this is not just Heidegger, but also Hegel … and what about contingency … without contingency, no Christian theology …
Only if you hang your hat on Hegel. But this type of critique does cause one to pause, right? If it is true, it ought to hold universally.
 
The heideggarians have morphed into rabid Feminists, supporters of homosexual ‘rights’, of ‘gay marrige’ and even into a profound movement of protestantism based on sola scriptura and the notion that man no longer need obey the Moral Law.
 
levinas12;7636895:
The meaning changes but such a change does not necessarily create a negation of meaning.
I think this is incorrect. Death need not create a negation of meaning as such (and I doubt that Heidegger claims that it does), but it does present a negation of Dasein, of being-in-the-world, and of the world that Dasein ‘worlds,’ together with its structures of ‘care’ (and all that jazz). In other words, it presents the finitude of the meaning by which we exist in-the-world.
 
Applying this test to the thought of Heidegger I think we can find a flaw in his analysis unless we limit his analysis to man apart from such a state. However, this would seem to come into problems with his notion of being ‘thrown’ because there would always be an historic echo of man being in the world in such a way that death was not a possibility.
How does this consideration reveal “problems” in Heidegger’s analysis?
 
Admittedly I am doing a Boethean (one could use Clarke or Kreeft just as easily) move. I’m using a known position of faith to test a possible philosophical position.

My test is the use of the prelapsarian state, which did not include death as a natural possibility for man.
By the way, the “prelapsarian” versus “postlapsarian” came up today in the first reading from Genesis at Mass (First Sunday of Lent) … original sin and then death … this is truly uncanny …

Have you read Rahner on original sin and death … he seems to deflect the postlapsarian issue from biological death to having angst in the face of sein zum tode …
 
How does this consideration reveal “problems” in Heidegger’s analysis?
Because if we accept the possibility that there was a time when man existed in a state where death was not a realizable possibility then that means that H. notions about being-toward-death are not as primordial as he would want. This would radically change his notion of Dasein. Being-towards-death would not necessarily be an authentic way of being-in-the world.
By the way, the “prelapsarian” versus “postlapsarian” came up today in the first reading from Genesis at Mass (First Sunday of Lent) … original sin and then death … this is truly uncanny …

Have you read Rahner on original sin and death … he seems to deflect the postlapsarian issue from biological death to having angst in the face of sein zum tode …
Vere. I have not read him on that point. It would be interesting to look at given the chance.
 
Because if we accept the possibility that there was a time when man existed in a state where death was not a realizable possibility…
But when would that be??

b.t.w., I think it is important not to make overly literal assumptions about the meaning of ‘death’ for Heidegger. Death simply represents the non-avoidable possibility of Dasein losing his being-in-the-world - that which he ‘owns’ is always a gift, which he is not capable of simply giving to himself.
 
But when would that be??

b.t.w., I think it is important not to make overly literal assumptions about the meaning of ‘death’ for Heidegger. Death simply represents the non-avoidable possibility of Dasein losing his being-in-the-world - that which he ‘owns’ is always a gift, which he is not capable of simply giving to himself.
I can be sympathetic with your read. However, I’m not sure how “allegorical” the early Heidegger would have been. In my read, he does not seem to take death to be figurative of the extreme case of ones loss of possibility. Thus, simply using it to thematically highlight the aspects of Dasein that he attaches to being-towards-death. Rather, he seems to want to say that it is because of this reality that we experience …]. On this account there would need to be a dramatic reanalysis of the role of death in the totality of human history. This is because, we are, for Heidegger (and I think rightly) conditioned by the totality of the history of Dasein. However, if there was a time when death was not part of what it is to be Dasein then this must be considered. Death could not, then, be a primordial feature of Dasein.
 
I can be sympathetic with your read. However, I’m not sure how “allegorical” the early Heidegger would have been. In my read, he does not seem to take death to be figurative of the extreme case of ones loss of possibility. Thus, simply using it to thematically highlight the aspects of Dasein that he attaches to being-towards-death. Rather, he seems to want to say that it is because of this reality that we experience …]. On this account there would need to be a dramatic reanalysis of the role of death in the totality of human history. This is because, we are, for Heidegger (and I think rightly) conditioned by the totality of the history of Dasein. However, if there was a time when death was not part of what it is to be Dasein then this must be considered. Death could not, then, be a primordial feature of Dasein.
Maybe you’re right. Would you happen to have any particular texts in mind that would suggest the correctness of your reading?

As far as a time when death was not a conditioning feature of man’s existence, I’m disputing that there ever was such a time, prelapsarian time included. Maybe you can explain why you think otherwise.

You say: “Death could not, then, be a primordial feature of Dasein.” But I wonder if it might not be better to say: “Man, then (at that time), would not have been Dasein.”
 
Maybe you’re right. Would you happen to have any particular texts in mind that would suggest the correctness of your reading?

As far as a time when death was not a conditioning feature of man’s existence, I’m disputing that there ever was such a time, prelapsarian time included. Maybe you can explain why you think otherwise.

You say: “Death could not, then, be a primordial feature of Dasein.” But I wonder if it might not be better to say: “Man, then (at that time), would not have been Dasein.”
I don’t have any specific texts in mind. This is just my reflection on his analysis.

Simply, the understanding of the prelapsarian state was that man would not die. Such a notion would be completely foreign to them and their children. This being the case, then death would not have its quality for them – in fact, it would have no quality.

That Adam and Eve are not Dasein is very interesting to consider. I’ll have to think about it for a while.
 
I don’t have any specific texts in mind. This is just my reflection on his analysis.

Simply, the understanding of the prelapsarian state was that man would not die. Such a notion would be completely foreign to them and their children. This being the case, then death would not have its quality for them – in fact, it would have no quality.

That Adam and Eve are not Dasein is very interesting to consider. I’ll have to think about it for a while.
This issue also comes up with the afterlife. What happens immediately after death, without my body? … and with the bodily resurrection at the end of the world? …,
 
Simply, the understanding of the prelapsarian state was that man would not die. Such a notion would be completely foreign to them and their children. This being the case, then death would not have its quality for them – in fact, it would have no quality.
I’m no expert on the prelapsarian state, but it seems to me that it would include the knowledge of the command, “Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden; on the day in which you eat of its fruit you shall surely die.”

[Talk of “them and their children” suggests to me that you are referring to a counter-factual elaboration of the prelapsarian state, and I don’t see how this could actually be relevant.]
 
I’m no expert on the prelapsarian state, but it seems to me that it would include the knowledge of the command, “Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden; on the day in which you eat of its fruit you shall surely die.”

[Talk of “them and their children” suggests to me that you are referring to a counter-factual elaboration of the prelapsarian state, and I don’t see how this could actually be relevant.]
But do we all agree that there is no Dasein after death - either immediately, or even with the resurrection of the body … because there is no longer time
 
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