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Montie_Claunch
Guest
I was wondering what happened to the Old Coveneant when the New Coveneant came into effect? What authority does the Old Testament have in our life? How are we supposed to look at it? Thanks and God bless.
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J
JesusOnly
Guest
The Old Testament Covenant is actually still in effect. God is not done with the people of Israel. He promised Abraham land, a nation of people, and a King. That will happen after Jesus comes in the clouds and raptures His church. (The Catholic church does not teach about the rapture) Then the 7 year tribulation will begin where Satan has his way with the world. Then Jesus will come back and God will then deal with nation of Israel.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
I’d like to add the question…what constitutes “Old Covenant” under which we are not bound in the New Covenant such as circumcision, for instance. There are parts in the OT like the 10 commandments under which we continue to be bound.
In short, what is a definition of what separates the things in the OT that were lifted under the New Covenant and which things remained??
In short, what is a definition of what separates the things in the OT that were lifted under the New Covenant and which things remained??
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Integritus
Guest
Why do we have non-Catholics, in fact non-traditional Christians, answering legitimate questions on a Catholic website under the Apologetics forum especially, when I would suspect the inquisitor is hoping to get the answer from a Catholic perspective?
What is the nature of Catholic.com’s boards? And especially this particular forum? Are we to debate and argue with those who hold minority Christian beliefs and “hope”, “just maybe” we’ll get a Catholic answer? Or should honest-seeking Catholics who ask questions in the Apologetics forums get a direct answer from a priest or Catholic apologist upfront, then debate?
Mods, any help?
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Northwind
Guest
Actually, we are not under the old covenant. Paul makes it clear in Romans 7 using the analogy of a marriage that, basically your “the jews” spouse has died and since your spouse has died you are no longer under the bond of that covenant. Now that you are free from that covenant, you may remarry…and Jesus is the one to marry. God was the other partner in the old covenant and when Jesus died they were free to remarry God but, this time under the new covenant.
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hoosierdaddy
Guest
But what good would it accomplish for you Catholics to have only yourselves answering questions on here? If you aren’t challenged, you have less chance of developing your apologetics skills.
Now personally, I believe that the old covenant is done away with. It was a shadow of the new and better covenant which was to (and has already) come. I feel I am allowed to offer this opinion even though I’m not a Catholic.
All seriousness aside though, I expect they will restrict this forum to Catholics only when they restrict the “non-Catholic religions” forum to non-Catholics.
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Fidelis
Guest
That IS funny, since the “Non-Catholics” forum is intended for discussion ABOUT non-Catholics, not a hidey-hole meant only for non-Catholics to post in!All seriousness aside though, I expect they will restrict this forum to Catholics only when they restrict the “non-Catholic religions” forum to non-Catholics.
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Fidelis
Guest
You are wrong on several fronts.
A. The Catholic Church does believe in a “rapture” (it’s right in 1 Thessalonians 4, for example). What the Catholic Church does NOT believe in is “rapture theology” the childish johnny-come-lately (less than 200 year old) theology that the “Left Behind” looneys and other sensationalistic non-sophisticates adhere to.
B. You’re description is classic “rapture theology error.” See point A, and then go here:
carl-olson.com/rapture_articles.html
As far as the Old Covenant goes, when Christ established the New Covenant in his Blood, he put an end to the ritual and legal laws of the Old Covenant. The desruction of the Jerusalem temple some 40 years later was verification of this. However, the moral prescriptions of the Law (like the 10 commandments) are still in effect, as they were not tied to the other two types of law, but are based on the natural moral law which is binding on everyone at all times.
As far as the Jews go, read Romans 9–11 and Ephesisans 2–3. Even though the Old Testament system of sacrifices and ritual purity laws have been abolished, the Jews are still precious to God and will, at some time in the future, join with the New Israel of God, the Church.
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Melchior
Guest
It was fullfilled by Christ in the New Covenant, which is really a continuation and completion of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant was specific to the OT nation of Israel as far as ceremonial law goes. There were actually a number of "Old Covenants. but the primary one was the one God made with Abraham and fulfilled in Christ. The Mosaic one was a foreshadow of the New.
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Melchior
Guest
Of course this is just dispensationalism which is about 90 years old and created by Darby. It is popular but it was unheard of for the past 2,000 years.
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Fidelis
Guest
Let’s not exagerate – it was invented about **190 **years ago!
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trogiah
Guest
Jeremiah first introduced the idea of the New Covenant so perhaps his words are of some value in this discussion.
**The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. **
**32 ****It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD. ****33 ****But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ****34 ****No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the LORD. All, from least to greatest, shall know me, says the LORD, for I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sin no more. **
I believe this to mean that when we reach a point of maturity where we understand what it means to live in God’s kingdom (and live accordingly) then following the details of the Law of Moses becomes less important - though not unimportant.
Jim
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Montie,
The basic covenant of both Old Testament and New Testaments remains the same. Both Jesus and Moses give us the basic covenant which states, if one loves God through obedience, with all their hearts, they will enter into life. Both Old Testament people and New Testament people, who love God, with all their hearts, through obedience to God, enter into life through Jesus.
The ark of the covenant bears the stone tablets with the ten commandments. When Jesus is asked what to do to go to heaven, Jesus responds, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
NAB MAR 10:17"Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?" Jesus answered, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments:**‘You shall not kill;****You shall not commit adultery;****You shall not steal;****You shall not bear false witness;****You shall not defraud;****Honor your father and your mother.’”**NAB DEU 30:15 The Choice before Israel.
‘I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them.** For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me**, down to the third and fourth generation but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.
’You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God, in vain. For the LORD will not leave unpunished him who takes his name in vain.
’Take care to keep holy the sabbath day as the LORD, your God, commanded you…
…****'Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD, your God, has commanded you, that you may have a long life and prosperity in the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you.
’You shall not kill.
**'You shall not commit adultery. **
**'You shall not steal. **
**'You shall not bear dishonest witness against your neighbor. **
**'You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife… **
…fear the LORD, your God, and keep, throughout the days of your lives, all his statutes and commandments which I enjoin on you, and thus have long life. Hear then, Israel, and be careful to observe them, that you may grow and prosper the more, in keeping with the promise of the LORD, the God of your fathers, to give you a land flowing with milk and honey. "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength.
The basic covenant of both Old Testament and New Testaments remains the same. Both Jesus and Moses give us the basic covenant which states, if one loves God through obedience, with all their hearts, they will enter into life. Both Old Testament people and New Testament people, who love God, with all their hearts, through obedience to God, enter into life through Jesus.
The ark of the covenant bears the stone tablets with the ten commandments. When Jesus is asked what to do to go to heaven, Jesus responds, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
NAB MAR 10:17"Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?" Jesus answered, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments:**‘You shall not kill;****You shall not commit adultery;****You shall not steal;****You shall not bear false witness;****You shall not defraud;****Honor your father and your mother.’”**NAB DEU 30:15 The Choice before Israel.
“Here then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live and grow numerous, and the LORD, your God, will bless you in the land you are entering to occupy.”
NAB LUK 10:25**“Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” Jesus answered him:** "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He replied:**"You shall love the Lord your God ****with all your heart, ****with all your soul, ****with all your strength, ****and with all your mind; **and your neighbor as yourself." Jesus said, “You have answered correctly. Do this and you shall live.” NAB DEU 5:6‘I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them.** For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me**, down to the third and fourth generation but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.
’You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God, in vain. For the LORD will not leave unpunished him who takes his name in vain.
’Take care to keep holy the sabbath day as the LORD, your God, commanded you…
…****'Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD, your God, has commanded you, that you may have a long life and prosperity in the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you.
’You shall not kill.
**'You shall not commit adultery. **
**'You shall not steal. **
**'You shall not bear dishonest witness against your neighbor. **
**'You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife… **
…fear the LORD, your God, and keep, throughout the days of your lives, all his statutes and commandments which I enjoin on you, and thus have long life. Hear then, Israel, and be careful to observe them, that you may grow and prosper the more, in keeping with the promise of the LORD, the God of your fathers, to give you a land flowing with milk and honey. "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength.
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
So you are not led astray, the Old Testament, (The Old Covenant) ended with the death of Jesus on the Cross. The Old Covenant was fulfilled with Jesus. Contrary to protestant theology, Satan was put in chains with the crucifixion and resurrection. Jesus is the answer. There will be no rapture. Show me where the Bible says that. it is not there. This novel interpretation of the Bible saying one will be taken and one will be left, did not start until the 1800’s. Satan is in chains if we only turn to Jesus now. Don’t wait for him for some future date which is promised by this nonsense. It will not happen. We have the magisterium, comprised of the Holy Father and those bishops in union with him under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is here now people - wake up. What I have said is what the magisterium teaches.
Deacon Ed B
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