What happened to them?

[Khalfan]

How could they be a witness to the Cross?

They were DEAD at the Crucifixtion.

Matthew clearly states that they came into the city AFTER His Resurrection. So no witness there either.

Their resurrection was supposed to be a result of the cross event. right? Then they were the perfect witness to give word, that the one dead on the cross was God. All those resurrected ones were supposed to be righeous and known of earlier prophecies including the resurrection. But we have nothing from them, and seems like only Matthew saw them walking the streets.

The idea was those who were alive who saw the Cross, the Resurrection and the dead come back could connect the dots.

None of them did that either, except Matthew. Other gospel writers were writing for gentiles and others to whom the writers didn’t care to mention about the resurrection story. All they were supposed believe in the resurrection of ‘Jesus’, but not in their own ancsestors resurrection. Isn’t it impossible to believe that, none of their ancsestors resurrection didn’t make any effect in any of the audience of Mark, Luke, John and Paul or the writers itself? It is. The only possibility is, fabrication of another story by Matthew. Read post no. 9. You can see how much detailed the event was according to her vision.

 

[Khalfan]

I am confused by your question - Jesus, as God, was not praying to be saved. He was quoting a psalm that all good Jews would have recognized. By doing so He was reminding them that He was fullfilling the prophecy of the promised Messiah.

Which prophecy?

 

[Reepicheep]

There was much magic in those days but Jesus did miracles and it had to be fantasic to be declared a miracl and sign or wonder, so what do you think with Moses rod be turned into a big snake was? I suppose you don’t believe it reallly was a snake?
Desert

Hi

It was an illusion, I think, not a real snake. A human being cannot create a thing which would mix up with the creation of GodAllahYHWH and has total resumblance with His creation, that is the point.

Thanks

But Moses wasn’t claiming that *he *made the rod become a snake. He was explictely claiming that God did this, to prove that Moses was really a messenger from God.

 

[Abraxsis]

Hi, interesting thread. Im a Gnostic so I wanted to chime in to set the record straight. The death and resurrection is a hotly debated topic within Gnostic circles. I can say that I believe it actually happened in a physical sense. Others would say that the even didnt really happen, that is was an illusion. That the Holy Spirit had left Jesus before his death.

Muslims did indeed borrow that idea of a crucifixtion that didnt really happen, but in no way does that mean Islam and Gnosticism are similar in any way, shape, or form. They couldnt be more different.

 

[Subrosa]

Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

What happened to them after? Where did they go?

They probably went out for a good meal. It had been a while!

Sub

 

[Lev23]

Why ALL the saints were not raised?

Putting in mind that Matthew’s audiance were Jews :

So, in keeping with Matthew’s Jewish-oriented message, it explains one reason of why he records this action of the Messiah.

.

BINGO! You are on to something, good job pointing out who Matthews audience was.

 

[Lev23]

Isn’t it sad that such a great event went on untold and unexplained anywhere else, even in Mattew in detail, about some people who could be the most authentical witnesses for the truth of cross and resurrection event to the gentiles, pagans and to the whole mankind till end of days? Or is it again, prophecy historyfying by simply putting a note that something so and so happened?

This is what I love about the scriptures from the God of Israel, his prophecy in the Old Testament proves the New Testament accounts are true.

The events of Jesus and his church in the New Testament can be seen prophetically in the nature and timing of the 7 feasts God gave to Israel to celebrate. These are listed in Leviticus 23.

Just think, Jesus, the Lamb of God, was crucified on Passover, buried on Unleavened bread, and was raised on Firstfruits. Paul connects the feast of Firstfruits to Jesus in 1Cor 15:20-23. Jesus fulfilled the first three feasts in their order, by the nature of the feast and the timing of them. And what do you know, how did Jesus fulfill the 4th feast, the feast of Weeks(Pentecost)? He sent the Holy Spirit to his church on the day of Pentecost. Again, read the nature of the feast and certainly the timing of it being fulfilled, on the exact day is just spectacular.

As a sidenote for those who say “God is done with Israel”, look at the last 3 feasts(Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles) that Jesus will fufill!

So Jesus is not a farmer who raises crops, he raises people, and those who rose from their tombs that Firstfruits was Jesus’s offering to the Father.

This event described by Matthew can be backed up by God’s word in the Old Testament.

The God of Israel is batting a 1.000 with his prophecy.

 

[Lev23]

Did Islam or any muslim ever said crucifixion never happened? We don’t deny the crucifixion. They indeed saw ‘Jesus’ on the cross.

Who is the “they” you are referring to? Because there were no “muslims” at that time let alone Islam.

 

[patg]

The God of Israel is batting a 1.000 with his prophecy.

First, the old testament events are not prophecies - they are Jewish rituals. The idea that one can line up some events in Jesus’ life to correspond to those rituals does not imply that those events were prophesied by the ritual. The 7 feasts God gave to Israel don’t prophesy anything.

Second, it is certainly possible (and far more probable, in my opinion) that the authors, being Jews versed in Jewish scriptures, wrote the gospel stories with the intention of fitting him into those 7 feasts to make a point to the Jewish reader. Thus the writing is likely a literary device used to express some specific truths about Jesus.

 

[Reepicheep]

I don’t believe them, because I don’t have any clue, who wrote them. You never been able to provide that either. then comes the second consideration, what they wrote. All they wrote about crucifixion. Did Islam or any muslim ever said crucifixion never happened? We don’t deny the crucifixion. They indeed saw ‘Jesus’ on the cross. We all know Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t a willing partner in the cross event. Wouldn’t God help him to be saved as he prayed for? We think God did just that. If that concept were there among some ‘gnostics’ even before Mohamed (pbuh), we can’t blame them since that was a possibility which God confirmed in the Quran.

You say that Jesus wasn’t “a willing partner in the cross event”.

For us Christians the whole point is that Jesus was “a willing partner” He came to this world for the specific purpose of allowing Himself to be crucified.

You comment that Jesus prayed to be saved.

In the garden of Gethsemane He prayed “If it be possible, let this cup pass from Me”
But in the very next breath He prayed, “Nonetheless, not My will but Thy will be done”. Then He prayed, “Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, Thy Will be done”. (Matthew 26: 36-42) He accepted His Father’s Will.

When Simon Peter tried to fight Jesus stopped him, saying: “Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” (Matthew 26: 53-54)

Their resurrection was supposed to be a result of the cross event. right? Then they were the perfect witness to give word, that the one dead on the cross was God. All those resurrected ones were supposed to be righeous and known of earlier prophecies including the resurrection. But we have nothing from them, and seems like only Matthew saw them walking the streets.

None of them did that either, except Matthew. Other gospel writers were writing for gentiles and others to whom the writers didn’t care to mention about the resurrection story. All they were supposed believe in the resurrection of ‘Jesus’, but not in their own ancsestors resurrection. Isn’t it impossible to believe that, none of their ancsestors resurrection didn’t make any effect in any of the audience of Mark, Luke, John and Paul or the writers itself? It is. The only possibility is, fabrication of another story by Matthew. Read post no. 9. You can see how much detailed the event was according to her vision.

Because, as far as we know, none of those risen left any written accounts, you conclude they must not have really risen?

Because only Matthew among the Gospel writers mentioned them, you suppose that only he saw it or knew of it?

Because you don’t read other writers describing them, you conclude that " The only possibility is, fabrication "?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… the old testament events are not prophecies - they are Jewish rituals. The idea that one can line up some events in Jesus’ life to correspond to those rituals does not imply that those events were prophesied by the ritual. The 7 feasts God gave to Israel don’t prophesy anything…

Hi patg,

Be careful; I don’t think thats true. Maybe you should start a new thread - I think you’ll find it interesting.

… Wouldn’t God help him to be saved as he prayed for? …

Hi Khalfan,

No; We’ve discussed this on a different thread. The Lord says, “It was my will that he should suffer; his death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness. And so he will see his descendants; he will live a long life, and through him my purpose will succeed.” (Is. 53:10)

---

Sorry for the diversion folks; Now let’s get back to the interesting topic of the original thread.

 

[patg]

Originally Posted by patg forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif
… the old testament events are not prophecies - they are Jewish rituals. The idea that one can line up some events in Jesus’ life to correspond to those rituals does not imply that those events were prophesied by the ritual. The 7 feasts God gave to Israel don’t prophesy anything…

Be careful; I don’t think thats true. Maybe you should start a new thread - I think you’ll find it interesting.

The “truth” here is purely a matter of faith - there isn’t any way to prove that something was a prophesy (or not). I think it is just as likely that the stories in the gospel were arranged and edited to specifically match events of the O.T. as it is that they were written independently and then we realized they matched the events. The Pontifical Biblical Commission even talks about this process in the document Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

The “truth” here is purely a matter of faith - there isn’t any way to prove that something was a prophesy (or not). I think it is just as likely that the stories in the gospel were arranged and edited to specifically match events of the O.T. as it is that they were written independently and then we realized they matched the events. The Pontifical Biblical Commission even talks about this process in the document Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels.

Hi again patg,

I don’t want to take this thread off course, so I’d like you to visit another thread where I discuss that God’s impeccable timing of the crucifixion is not a co-incidence.

More info:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2376814#post2376814
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2070385#post2070385

1 Corinthians 5:7 - … Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

---

Once again, sorry for the diversion, folks; Let’s get back to “What happened to them?”

 

[inJESUS]

I don’t believe them, because I don’t have any clue, who wrote them.

in other words, you can’t believe a single word written by them, unless it is quoted by your prophet as Allah’s word, like many passages in Matthew , John, Luke and Paul. When it suits you you believe what they wrote, and when it doesnt you question their validity. Pick and choose, cult’s key in creating religions.

You never been able to provide that either.

 

[Khalfan]

in other words, you can’t believe a single word written by them, unless it is quoted by your prophet as Allah’s word, like many passages in Matthew , John, Luke and Paul. When it suits you you believe what they wrote, and when it doesnt you question their validity. Pick and choose, cult’s key in creating religions.

Did I say, I don’t believe even a single word in the Bible? I believe in many verses which goes along with Islamic teachings. What I said is, I don’t believe the writers, because NO ONE KNOWS THEM. Pick and choose is not always bad my dear, this is why we have free will. You don’t need free will to swallow anything any preacher utter.

do you want me to quote the authors’ disciples? do you want me to show you that the NT you are questioning now was already quoted by disciples’ disciples? or will you reject them as well because Muhammad just cannot be a Joseph Smith of Arabia? what other proof do you need beside the authors’ disciples?

I am talking about the authors and you are coming up with the ‘proof’ of their disciples?

My dear friend, Disciple’s disciples means, after two generation. It can make a big difference. Just check the Bibles of last 50 years. You will understand what all difference just 50 years can make in your ORIGINAL copies of Bible itself.

ah so people saw Jesus but Allah made a trick right? Allah killed another human instead of Jesus right? and the mouse ate his tongue and he couldnt say : hey what on earth put me on this cross! why are you killing me?!

And you are so sure about what all he said on cross, right? As per one ‘wittness’ it is, “Its finished”. As per another one, it is “why have you forsaken me?” in Hebrew. As per another one, in Aramic. As per another one, he said “into your hand, I commit my spirit”. As per the jews standing nearby, he was calling for Elijah. And you want me to believe, the man who was rebuking God for forsaking him, could never have said “why are you killing me?”.

is that how your Alllah saved Jesus?by killing someone else? by making people see that he died??by tricking thousands into a “false” religion for thousands of years? by tricking Mary as well? by making Jews boast about it in order for your deity to remember 600 years later that people should know about his trick and yet blame them for a trick he did himself? in order to save a “prophet”, your Allah renders previous prophets as liars, tricks humanity for thousands of years, kills someone else, makes people believe in an illusion, and shows Jesus as a coward and hypocrite?i wonder where was your Allah when other prophets were killed. Thank the real God your deity did not interfere in their death as well. Is that the deity you believe in?

You have to look into the ‘resurrection part’ in NT carefully to know if the disciples or Mary (r) ever believed Jesus (pbuh) was ‘resurrected’.

1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Was it a spiritual body that appeared to disciples? or a man with flesh and bones, who could be touched and even ate food??

Cont…

 

[Khalfan]

Cont…

we=Muslims. Not Jews nor Christians. Not Jesus, nor the disciples, nor any of the Church Fathers. You render all these people as liars, you ignore all history because you are NOT willing to admit that Muhammad borrowed a Gnostic interpretation of Jesus’ crucifixion. Once you admit it, you’ll realize that Jesus was indeed crucified as He said and as history, Bible, Talmud and non-Christian sources say. You cannot deny this only because you are not willing to admit that your prophet borrowed man-made interpretations that existed before him.

Hold on, did I quote anything from Mohamed (pbuh)? Or did I quote your own Bible? My dear, that prayer of Jesus (pbuh) to be saved from cross is in your own Bible in clear words. YOU don’t want to accept that becasue, that doesn’t suite your beliefs. You HAVE TO interpret as something else to cover the confusion among the believers. Why do you pull mohamed (pbuh) into it?

no, because even if indeed he prayed to be saved, this means that Jesus wants to show that previous prophets were liars. And since He pointed out to them, He will not make them liars. He cannot point out to prophets and then call them liars. Can you or can’t you understand this?

Then you are saying, he didn’t pray to be saved from cross, but the disciple’s disciples, the gospel writers are the liars.

thats because you have NO clue about Gnostics. Gnostics did NOT say it was not Jesus. Gnostics did NOT say it was someone else. Gnostics do NOT deny Jesus’ crucifixion. And if Muhammad adopted this possibility, thats because he was taught by heretics, not by God.

You don’t know the life of Jesus (pbuh) itself but you know about the gnostics very well. right? Oh yaaa… I think I should believe you.

 

[inJESUS]

Did I say, I don’t believe even a single word in the Bible? I believe in many verses which goes along with Islamic teachings. What I said is, I don’t believe the writers, because NO ONE KNOWS THEM. Pick and choose is not always bad my dear, this is why we have free will. You don’t need free will to swallow anything any preacher utter.

1- if no one knows them, then you cannot believe any word they said, unless it suits you. So you accept their word, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE UNKNOWN, only because it suits you. In other words, you are not being truthful with your argument.“Whatever word suits us is from God” is the sole argument you can rely on when faced with all the borrowing muhammad did from here and there, and this is called circular reasoning. It has nothing to do with history or intellect but has to do with blind faith.

2- who said no one knows them? do you personally know Uthman? do you know Abu Bakr? do you know Ali bin Abi Talib? no you don’t, but yu know these people’s writings from tradition and these people knew your prophet so when they quote the Quran, you are sure they are quoting correct teachings. Likewise, i don’t know who Irenaeus was or who Ignatius was or who Polycarp was, personally, but these were Peter and John’s disciples and when they quote their teachings, that’s because they are quoting the disciples. These people, like the sahaba, had no doubt as to who they are quoting, and they quoted aproximately all the NT we have now, citing the apostles’ names, either for explanation, or prayer, or to answer heretics. So who knows better the apostles’ teachings if not their disciples? why should you trust the sahaba for being truthful and i should not trust the apostles’ disciples?

I am talking about the authors and you are coming up with the ‘proof’ of their disciples?

 

[inJESUS]

my quote was this :

we=Muslims. Not Jews nor Christians. Not Jesus, nor the disciples, nor any of the Church Fathers. You render all these people as liars, you ignore all history because you are NOT willing to admit that Muhammad borrowed a Gnostic interpretation of Jesus’ crucifixion. Once you admit it, you’ll realize that Jesus was indeed crucified as He said and as history, Bible, Talmud and non-Christian sources say. You cannot deny this only because you are not willing to admit that your prophet borrowed man-made interpretations that existed before him.

Hold on, did I quote anything from Mohamed (pbuh)? Or did I quote your own Bible? My dear, that prayer of Jesus (pbuh) to be saved from cross is in your own Bible in clear words. YOU don’t want to accept that becasue, that doesn’t suite your beliefs. You HAVE TO interpret as something else to cover the confusion among the believers. Why do you pull mohamed (pbuh) into it?

your answer is irrelevant. I don’t want to accept what’s in the Bible? kidding right? i do accept it and if it does not “suit” our belief then why didn’t we “delete” it? what i don’t accept is saying that Jesus was saved because He wanted to be saved.

1- because you did not answer why didn’t Allah save all the people who were killed even though they prayed?

2- if Jesus wanted to be saved, it means Jesus is saying all the previous prophets are liars. When Jesus says** it is written** that He will suffer and die, He surely will not render the scriptures as false written by false prophets. Do you understand this? what the prayer shows is the agony of Jesus the man who submitted to the will of the Father ALREADY foretold by the prophets. So if God indeed saved Jesus, this means that the prophets AND the Father were foretelling LIES. In other words, in order to save Jesus, the Father says He is not truthful by what He revealed through prophets. Which makes the Father a liar, the prohets liars, and Jesus as hypocrite (astaghfirullah) .Do you, or don’t you understand this? please answer this point that i repeated more than thrice so far.

Then you are saying, he didn’t pray to be saved from cross, but the disciple’s disciples, the gospel writers are the liars.

no, i am saying that your interpretation opposes all scriptures, the Father and Jesus. I said He did pray. I say He was in deep agony that no one can imagine. But i say that He did not think He will be saved because this proves Jesus’ prophecizing about His death to be a lie, the previous prophets to be liars, and the Father to be a liar (astaghfirullah). So your interpretation cannot be even taken into consideration for its serious insults and flaws against the Father, Jesus, and the prophets.

You don’t know the life of Jesus (pbuh) itself but you know about the gnostics very well. right? Oh yaaa… I think I should believe you.

what kind of an answer is this? you dont have to believe a word of what i said but the gnostics teachings are no secret. anyone who wants to know about them can research it.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

What happened to them after? Where did they go?

That particular detail is probably no more a real occurrence than the ascent of Mohammed on Al-Borak - they both sound like legendary embroideries of real facts; the saving work of Christ in the first case, the life of Mohammed in the second.​

The Passion of Christ is a reality; so is the significance it has in the Christian Tradition: that crucified Jew is the God-given Lord & Redeemer. What is not real, is some of what is described as happening at the Passion: the earthquake, the darkening of the sun at noon, the breaking open of the tombs - these details are not descriptions of what happened, but traditional apocalyptic language used by the evangelists to say Who Jesus is & what He is doing; it brings out the significance of the Work of Christ.

It is no fault of the evangelists if later generations mistook their use of apocalyptic ideas for straightforward description of what happened. If people are capable of realising that “Abraham’s bosom” is a reference to the dwelling-place of the righteous, & not a reference to his chestal area (& they are), that kind of writing should not cause too many problems.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

What happened to them after? Where did they go?

It doesn’t say.

52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

But it suggests it was limited and can be reasonably assumed God lifted them unto Himself soon after they were witnessed without specific mention.

54 Now the centurion, and they that were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Think about when and where this was written and who was reading it. If the “many” in vs 52 or the centurion in vs 54 were fictitious or not in agreement the extraordinary claims of the death of Christ, it likely would have been disputed and denounced very early on.

People believed then becasue it was true, and they were convincng witnesses to others so more believed. 2000 years later 1 in 3 people believe in Christ. Almost all know about Him. Largely due to when the saints briefly appeared the moment after Christ died as recorded in the Gospels…among the many other witnessed events of His life and death.