What happens if I'm wrong?

[FCEGM]

reen12:

quote:FCEG

FCEG, I make a statement:
Some of the doctrine held by the CC I asses as
being counter-scriptural.

If a given individual accepts that these doctrines are
*not *counter-scriptural, in conscience, I have no
difficulty with that. If, having read scripture, no
questions arise, as to the doctrine of the CC, I don’t
see this as “unquestioning,” I see it as a differing
assessment of what is read.

The definition of “circular reasoning” is to use the
assertion that is to be proved, to prove the premise under
discussion.
That God employed the CC, to assemble Scripture,
is both an ecclesial as well as an historical fact.

Having assembled same, the reading of what was
assembled- and the conclusions drawn from same-
are where the departures occur - and, in conscience,
I cannot accept same, and still claim that I am
following the very scriptures that the CC assembled.*

Ummmm, Reen, the quote to which you are responding is not mine.

 

[MariaG]

smelton:

Nothing more than what keeps churches from making mistakes. Nothing but the Holy Spirit. Often times though He is simply ignored. I have heard absolutley horendous sermons in protestant churches. Misinterpreted scripture. Abuse of power. Man’s opinion pronounced as if it was God’s opinion. I am absolutley irritated and offended when these things happen. I address them as I felt led by the Spirit. Sometimes by confrontation(with love) and sometimes by simple prayer. If you ask me, which you didn’t, I would say legalism runs a muck in our churches. It repulses me every time I hear it, it seems we are trying to negate God’s grace by adding rules. I was taught by my father, who is a protestant minister, to measure everything to scripture. That is why I wondered, at the begining of this thread, what a Catholic’s opinon on questioning the church was.

But here is where you are wrong. God promises to lead us to all truth. Did He lie?

You obviously see that individuals can be led astray. So where is this “all truth” which God promised and which church is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Unless you do not believe all Scripture is true, there must be an answer to these questions. Find the answer.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[YinYangMom]

smelton:

Scripture validates what Jesus did, it is not what he did. If we didn’t have a bible, approved by which ever council, it would not change Jesus sacrifice. It was his actions which save us.

Says who?

And yes, the question is directed specifically to Smelton.

 

[VociMike]

smelton:

Scripture validates what Jesus did, it is not what he did. If we didn’t have a bible, approved by which ever council, it would not change Jesus sacrifice. It was his actions which save us.

That might be true if nothing, absolutely nothing, was required of a person to be saved. But if something is required of a person, what is that something, and how dow we discover it? And if God desires something of us, what is that something and how do we learn of it?

And of course there’s even the question as to whether Jesus actually existed, was God Incarnate, and did what we Christians think He did. How would you know any of that without the Catholic Church to preserve it, either in scripture and/or in Sacred Tradition?

If the Catholic Church is not a divinely-inspired and led institution, on what do you base your Christian faith?

 

[smelton]

YinYangMom:

Says who?

And yes, the question is directed specifically to Smelton.

God.

 

[YinYangMom]

smelton:

God.

To whom?

 

[smelton]

VociMike:

That might be true if nothing, absolutely nothing, was required of a person to be saved. But if something is required of a person, what is that something, and how dow we discover it? And if God desires something of us, what is that something and how do we learn of it?

And of course there’s even the question as to whether Jesus actually existed, was God Incarnate, and did what we Christians think He did. How would you know any of that without the Catholic Church to preserve it, either in scripture and/or in Sacred Tradition?

If the Catholic Church is not a divinely-inspired and led institution, on what do you base your Christian faith?

I don’t think the Catholic Church preserved it, I think God did it through the Catholic Church. I suspect he could have done it through many different instruments but that is how what he chose. That in my understanding doesn’t give infalibility to the church though. I don’t base my faith on anything but the Grace of God. I suspect on the day of Judgement I will fall on my face, if I was able to stand up at all, and claim the grace of God as my only messure of salvation. Not which church I went to, no action I ever took, but only in his Saving Grace.

 

[YinYangMom]

smelton:

I don’t think the Catholic Church preserved it, I think God did it through the Catholic Church.

Quite insightful.
When, do you suppose, did God chose to no longer use the Church to preserve His Truth?

 

[smelton]

YinYangMom:

To whom?

Are you asking me where I find this information or to whom does God say this?

 

[jpete79]

smelton:

I don’t think the Catholic Church preserved it, I think God did it through the Catholic Church. I suspect he could have done it through many different instruments but that is how what he chose. That in my understanding doesn’t give infalibility to the church though. I don’t base my faith on anything but the Grace of God. I suspect on the day of Judgement I will fall on my face, if I was able to stand up at all, and claim the grace of God as my only messure of salvation. Not which church I went to, no action I ever took, but only in his Saving Grace.

AMEN Smelton

 

[YinYangMom]

smelton:

Are you asking me where I find this information or to whom does God say this?

Sorry. Was it by spoken word? in writing? through revelation? to whom was this information shared?

 

[smelton]

YinYangMom:

Quite insightful.
When, do you suppose, did God chose to no longer use the Church to preserve His Truth?

That I’m not sure of. I don’t know that I’m qualified to answer that question.

 

[VociMike]

smelton:

I don’t think the Catholic Church preserved it, I think God did it through the Catholic Church.

Well, I’m not sure of the distinction you’re trying to make. The Church clearly teaches that it is by the inspiration and guidance of God that the Church guards and teaches the deposit of faith. The Church is not an independent organization acting separately from God (although every individual Church member does do that off and on).

I suspect he could have done it through many different instruments but that is how what he chose.

Right.

That in my understanding doesn’t give infalibility to the church though. I don’t base my faith on anything but the Grace of God. I suspect on the day of Judgement I will fall on my face, if I was able to stand up at all, and claim the grace of God as my only messure of salvation. Not which church I went to, no action I ever took, but only in his Saving Grace.

I’m not sure where you’re going with this. My original response was to your statement “Besides the scripture where else would you turn to find truth?” Are you saying that besides the scripture (and the Church) God would just communicate the truth to you privately? If that’s the case, why have a Church or scripture at all? Why doesn’t God just communicate the truth to everybody privately? Why does He bother with scripture and the Church?

 

[MariaG]

smelton:

I don’t think the Catholic Church preserved it, I think God did it through the Catholic Church. I suspect he could have done it through many different instruments but that is how what he chose. That in my understanding doesn’t give infalibility to the church though. I don’t base my faith on anything but the Grace of God. I suspect on the day of Judgement I will fall on my face, if I was able to stand up at all, and claim the grace of God as my only messure of salvation. Not which church I went to, no action I ever took, but only in his Saving Grace.

The Catholic Church also believes and acknowledges that the Bible was preserved by her through God. But we also believe all the promises of the same Scripture that you hold so dear.

Which Church is the Pillar and foundation of truth? and How can we be led to all truth if there is no guareentee of infallibility? I don’t understand why you place God in a box and don’t allow Him to be big enough to live up to His promises.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[smelton]

MariaG:

The Catholic Church also believes and acknowledges that the Bible was preserved by her through God. But we also believe all the promises of the same Scripture that you hold so dear.

Which Church is the Pillar and foundation of truth? and How can we be led to all truth if there is no guareentee of infallibility? I don’t understand why you place God in a box and don’t allow Him to be big enough to live up to His promises.

God Bless,
Maria

I would reverse you first statement a touch. God preserved the bible through the chuch. Its probably not that big of deal, simple simantics. I believe in the infallibility of scripture. I don’t feel I put God in a box, most of the time. Sometimes I do it because I’m human and make mistakes. I think the Church is alive and well today. That God is using the Church to make disciples of all nations.

 

[YinYangMom]

smelton:

That I’m not sure of. I don’t know that I’m qualified to answer that question.

But you’re certain God, at some time, used the Catholic Church to preserve His Truth, yes?

And you became certain of that, how?

 

[jpete79]

MariaG:

The Catholic Church also believes and acknowledges that the Bible was preserved by her through God. But we also believe all the promises of the same Scripture that you hold so dear.

Which Church is the Pillar and foundation of truth? and How can we be led to all truth if there is no guareentee of infallibility? I don’t understand why you place God in a box and don’t allow Him to be big enough to live up to His promises.

God Bless,
Maria

Maria:

We don’t place God in a box, we put God in our hearts. After all, isn’t the new temple our own bodies? Aren’t we to let the Spirit thrive within us and free us from bondage? See as a Protestant its my belief in Christ and willingness to live in obedience to Him that defines my eternity.

It’s not whether I receive the Sacraments of the Church but whether I’m baptized due to obedience or whether I eat the communion bread in remembrance of Christ dying on the Cross, his body broken and his blood shed.

From the Protestant point of view, we believe that Christ is the head and we are the body. We believe that we are all sons and daughters of Christ and therefore we are all part of the Church, when we come to know Him.

I have heard everyone say that if the Catholic Church is not the true Church then Christ’s comments to Peter are false (that the gates of hell have conquered the Church is what I’m told). This is impossible if you put Christ at the head of the Church. Hell would have to conquer Christ Himself.

 

[YinYangMom]

jpete79:

I have heard everyone say that if the Catholic Church is not the true Church then Christ’s comments to Peter are false (that the gates of hell have conquered the Church is what I’m told). This is impossible if you put Christ at the head of the Church. Hell would have to conquer Christ Himself.

Christ is the Head of the Church, and the Body is the Catholic Church He established through Peter.

Show us in scripture where Jesus conferred the gifts of the Holy Spirit upon all disciples and followers of His. Pentecost is the beginning of His Church’s mission. To whom did he promise the Spirit would be sent? Who was in the room that day? Who left that room and began to spread the Good News according to HIS will?

It was not every single believer.

But, reading that again, I guess I should first ask when the Church you believe in was established by Christ. I’m assuming (and that’s a no-no) that you recognize Pentecost as important as we Catholics do. Perhaps that’s not the case. We see the establishment of the Church upon which He builds His Church in the passage about Peter being the Rock. We see the beginning mission of that same Church in Pentecost. Do you view the ‘Church’ establishment/beginning missions differently? If so, which scripture passages support your beginnings?

Since you agree it is impossible for the gates of Hell to have conquered Christ’s Church, you should be able to acknowledge the Catholic Church is still His chosen protector of the Truth. He didn’t change that. Man is the only one who has changed the terms of Jesus’ promise…changing it from the Church to all believers. Check your scriptures. It isn’t there the way you understand it to be.

 

[jpete79]

YinYangMom:

Christ is the Head of the Church, and the Body is the Catholic Church He established through Peter.

Show us in scripture where Jesus conferred the gifts of the Holy Spirit upon all disciples and followers of His. Pentecost is the beginning of His Church’s mission. To whom did he promise the Spirit would be sent? Who was in the room that day? Who left that room and began to spread the Good News according to HIS will?

It was not every single believer.

But, reading that again, I guess I should first ask when the Church you believe in was established by Christ. I’m assuming (and that’s a no-no) that you recognize Pentecost as important as we Catholics do. Perhaps that’s not the case. We see the establishment of the Church upon which He builds His Church in the passage about Peter being the Rock. We see the beginning mission of that same Church in Pentecost. Do you view the ‘Church’ establishment/beginning missions differently? If so, which scripture passages support your beginnings?

Since you agree it is impossible for the gates of Hell to have conquered Christ’s Church, you should be able to acknowledge the Catholic Church is still His chosen protector of the Truth. He didn’t change that. Man is the only one who has changed the terms of Jesus’ promise…changing it from the Church to all believers. Check your scriptures. It isn’t there the way you understand it to be.

Fair questions…

First, I am at work so it is hard for me to search Scripture references right this moment. With that…

You assume correctly…Pentecost Sunday is considered the Birthday of the Church in my denomination (Evangelical Free) as well. We also do believe in Peter being the rock that the Church is built on.

The difference is that Peter was the first person to show that Christ’s love is indeed meant for all people and not just the Jews. That is where the Church’s beginnings were.

We hear in Corinthians that people were split in their beliefs and who they were baptized by. The people were feuding over this because they were saying one faction is better than the other because of who they were baptized by. Now, Paul’s response was that it didn’t matter because we were to hold to Christ’s teaching and He is who we are ultimately baptized by.

 

[YinYangMom]

jpete79:

Fair questions…

First, I am at work so it is hard for me to search Scripture references right this moment. With that…

You assume correctly…Pentecost Sunday is considered the Birthday of the Church in my denomination (Evangelical Free) as well. We also do believe in Peter being the rock that the Church is built on.

The difference is that Peter was the first person to show that Christ’s love is indeed meant for all people and not just the Jews. That is where the Church’s beginnings were.

So what was the significance of the Pentecost, then? You say it’s the birthday of the Church. Who was in the room that day to receive the gift of **the **Church and to whom it was charged to share the gift with all people?

We hear in Corinthians that people were split in their beliefs and who they were baptized by. The people were feuding over this because they were saying one faction is better than the other because of who they were baptized by. Now, Paul’s response was that it didn’t matter because we were to hold to Christ’s teaching and He is who we are ultimately baptized by.

Ok…found the passage from 1 Corinthians:

10Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Apparently the divisions he was dealing with were people who were giving more credence to the apostle doing the baptizing than to Jesus Himself. There must have been people who were saying they were followers of Apollos and Paul instead of understanding they were **all **followers of Jesus thru Apollos and Paul.

The passage seems to still hold that Christians were one through the Church Christ established. I don’t see how it gives people permission to disregard the apostles under which they were entered into the Church and then rely on their own minds and hearts to figure out what to do with their life once they were baptized. He seems to be reminding them the apostles are the teachers, not the Savior.