What happens if I'm wrong?

[javelin]

As far as the lineage of popes is concerned, it is with the office of the papacy that the authority of the keys resides, just as it did with the Davidic kingdom from which the image of the keys originates (Isaiah 22). (Wasn’t the Davidic kingdom to be restored, with Christ as the King? Jesus said “the Kingdom of God is at hand.” If the kingdom is here, who is the cheif steward? The person with the keys…) The authority remains, even if the office is, for a time, vacant.

The office of the presidency still holds its authority even while no one is currently serving in that office to exercise the authority. Once someone is chosen for the office, the full authority of that office is his.

So, the precise lineage is not important. The papcy is not a hereditary line, like the Davidic kingdom line. It is an office that is filled by election and appointment by the King, acting by the Holy Spirit through the bishops.

The fact that we know so many of them over 2000 years is actually quite amazing, IMHO.

Peace,
javelin

 

[jpete79]

First, I want to wish you a great and blessed Christmas Maria…now with that said…

HOW SMALL I’VE MADE GOD!?!?!

I make God my top priority and my purpose of living. I think about Him all the time, how to please Him and how I’ve let Him down…I glorify Him through studies, through poetry, through songs, through meditation, through prayer and through deeds. This coming year, I will be going overseas to an unreached Muslim community to build a body of believers there (I cannot disclose the location but its in Africa). I will be introducing the Gospel to where it hasn’t been heard and I will be there for two years doing so.

Please don’t tell me I make God small. I accept Him as Creator, Redeemer, Savior, Father, and much more. I look outside and realize that He made the universe we live in. The galaxy that is SOOOO BIG yet the molecules and subatomic particles that are SOOOO SMALL were all created by Him. The simplicities of the simplest life form and complexities of the greatest were all made by Him. He’s a God that let a perfect creation end up flawed, only so He can show how truly loving, glorious, beautiful and powerful He is by redeeming it and us through the blood of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

This is how I see God; in a CS Lewis Chronicles of Narnia book called Prince Caspian, Lucy (one of the heroines of The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe) sees Aslan for the first time in a year (in her time but over generations in Narnian time). When she sees Him, she tells Him how big he became. He told her it is only her growth that makes Him bigger. It is how she grows in Him that makes Him all the bigger (that is the same way I grow in God the more I look at Him the BIGGER HE GETS).

Before I close, please know that even though I try to live life for Him as I said before, I still disappoint quite often. Is it because I am Protestant? Is it because the Spirit fails? Is it because of anything else? IT IS BECAUSE I AM HUMAN!!! The Spirit doesn’t fail me, I fail the Spirit. Everyone has these faults but it doesn’t mean that they can’t live for God no matter whether Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical, etc. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Well, if you put your faith in Christ first; you’re right. If you put it in anything else; whether idols, money, Churches, people, materials, governments, etc…I hate to know the result.

 

[MariaG]

originally posted by jpete79
First, I want to wish you a great and blessed Christmas

Merry Christmas to you also. And just in case, with Christmas so close, soon, I will not be posting much. I still need to finish all my Christmas cookies. I was sick for too long! This is about when I have to start really remembering it is not whether or not I get cookies done, it is about Christ!

HOW SMALL I’VE MADE GOD!?!?!

By not believing that He can not only lead you personally to all truth, but an entire Church, The Catholic Church.

I make God my top priority … I will be going overseas to an unreached Muslim community to build a body of believers there … for two years doing so.

That is wonderful. I pray God will keep you safe on your mission trip. I also pray that He will allow you to see the fruit of your work while there.

Please don’t tell me I make God small. I accept Him as Creator, Redeemer, Savior, Father, and much more. I look outside and realize that He made the universe we live in. …He is by redeeming it and us through the blood of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Then it should not be such a large leap to see that the God that created such a wonderful Universe and gave us His only Son would also give us the gift of His infallible Church.

This is how I see God; in a CS Lewis Chronicles …He told her it is only her growth that makes Him bigger. It is how she grows in Him that makes Him all the bigger (that is the same way I grow in God the more I look at Him the BIGGER HE GETS).

I understand exactly what you mean. I can only pray that as you grow in God that He is big enough to encompass the Truth of His Church. I am not sure if I should pray this happens before or after you mission trip, because all the souls won for Christ are good and if the truth were revealed to you before your trip, I worry that your trip could not be made. (Don’t think that I believe I am done growing, I many areas of Growth needed, some I am dragging my feet in, Patience…I WANT IT NOW!)

Before I close, please know that even though I try to live life for Him as I said before, I still disappoint quite often. Is it because I am Protestant? Is it because the Spirit fails? Is it because of anything else? IT IS BECAUSE I AM HUMAN!!! The Spirit doesn’t fail me, I fail the Spirit. Everyone has these faults but it doesn’t mean that they can’t live for God no matter whether Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical, etc. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Well, if you put your faith in Christ first; you’re right. If you put it in anything else; whether idols, money, Churches, people, materials, governments, etc…I hate to know the result

I frequently fail Him. But I when I stand before God, I will claim His precious Blood.

And I agree with you, it doesn’t matter what denomination you are, we all fail, and we can all also do glory for Him. My faith has always been, and I pray will always be in Christ first, foremost and always. It is because of my faith in Him, that I can believe 100% the promises He gave to us that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church. And I can trust in Him to keep that Church a visible Church.

May God Bless you and keep you safe. I pray that God is able to work through you and reach those who have not heard the gospel of Christ. All glory and honor to Him.

(I also pray that you have learned enough about Catholics to realize we are Christians and you do not “save” Catholic Christians but truly are reaching out to those who never had heard about Christ. I had the unfortunate experience of hearing a missionary from Africa who bragged how much *her *church grew. From her talk, it was apparent that she had few new converts and was just bringing in others from all the other denominations (Catholic, evangelical etc) . I have no reason to believe this from your posts. You always seem to give God the credit, your mention of Africa just brought this to my mind. Maybe God just wanted me to relay this to you in order to help remind you when you are in Africa. I am sure it will be a challenging experience for you but also one in which you own faith in Christ will grow even more steady.)

Truly, may God Bless you and keep you safe.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[jpete79]

MariaG:

Merry Christmas to you also. And just in case, with Christmas so close, soon, I will not be posting much. I still need to finish all my Christmas cookies. I was sick for too long! This is about when I have to start really remembering it is not whether or not I get cookies done, it is about Christ!

By not believing that He can not only lead you personally to all truth, but an entire Church, The Catholic Church.

That is wonderful. I pray God will keep you safe on your mission trip. I also pray that He will allow you to see the fruit of your work while there.

Then it should not be such a large leap to see that the God that created such a wonderful Universe and gave us His only Son would also give us the gift of His infallible Church.

I understand exactly what you mean. I can only pray that as you grow in God that He is big enough to encompass the Truth of His Church. I am not sure if I should pray this happens before or after you mission trip, because all the souls won for Christ are good and if the truth were revealed to you before your trip, I worry that your trip could not be made. (Don’t think that I believe I am done growing, I many areas of Growth needed, some I am dragging my feet in, Patience…I WANT IT NOW!)

I frequently fail Him. But I when I stand before God, I will claim His precious Blood.

And I agree with you, it doesn’t matter what denomination you are, we all fail, and we can all also do glory for Him. My faith has always been, and I pray will always be in Christ first, foremost and always. It is because of my faith in Him, that I can believe 100% the promises He gave to us that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church. And I can trust in Him to keep that Church a visible Church.

May God Bless you and keep you safe. I pray that God is able to work through you and reach those who have not heard the gospel of Christ. All glory and honor to Him.

(I also pray that you have learned enough about Catholics to realize we are Christians and you do not “save” Catholic Christians but truly are reaching out to those who never had heard about Christ. I had the unfortunate experience of hearing a missionary from Africa who bragged how much *her *church grew. From her talk, it was apparent that she had few new converts and was just bringing in others from all the other denominations (Catholic, evangelical etc) . I have no reason to believe this from your posts. You always seem to give God the credit, your mention of Africa just brought this to my mind. Maybe God just wanted me to relay this to you in order to help remind you when you are in Africa. I am sure it will be a challenging experience for you but also one in which you own faith in Christ will grow even more steady.)

Truly, may God Bless you and keep you safe.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

Maria:

Thanks for the Holiday wishes. I hope your Christmas cookies come out wonderful. I was sick for most of last week as well and it took a toll on me. I hope God blesses your time with family, friends, Mass, etc and that you have an awesome day remembering the birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

My vision is to see as many people introduced to the Gospel as possible. I, myself cannot save anyone in any other sense then showing them who Jesus Christ is. The rest of the conversion process is 100% totally up to God (and the believer him/herself). I can assure you that my goal is not trying to have believers switch denominations (there aren’t any where I’m going right now to begin with).

I will say boldly, I would much rather instead of someone finding out a nugget of truth and switching to the denomination that teaches that truth; for the individual to try bringing it into his/her own Church so that all Churches can humbly build each other up in learning about God. It isn’t winning anyone to Christ if they are merely switching denominations, it maybe better for that person’s “heart,” but it does nothing for the old Church he/she was a part of.

Again have a great one and God Bless.

In His Name,
Jim

 

[MariaG]

jpete79:

Maria:

Thanks for the Holiday wishes. I hope your Christmas cookies come out wonderful. I was sick for most of last week as well and it took a toll on me. I hope God blesses your time with family, friends, Mass, etc and that you have an awesome day remembering the birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

My vision is to see as many people introduced to the Gospel as possible. I, myself cannot save anyone in any other sense then showing them who Jesus Christ is. The rest of the conversion process is 100% totally up to God (and the believer him/herself). I can assure you that my goal is not trying to have believers switch denominations (there aren’t any where I’m going right now to begin with).

I will say boldly, I would much rather instead of someone finding out a nugget of truth and switching to the denomination that teaches that truth; for the individual to try bringing it into his/her own Church so that all Churches can humbly build each other up in learning about God. It isn’t winning anyone to Christ if they are merely switching denominations, it maybe better for that person’s “heart,” but it does nothing for the old Church he/she was a part of.

Again have a great one and God Bless.

In His Name,
Jim

And the cookies are going great! My boys are helping out, the 16 year old, to the 4 year old. And I have to say their help this year is actually less work for me instead of more!

Have a blessed Christmas.

God bless,
Maria

ps When do you leave? Will you have access to internet?

 

[jpete79]

And the cookies are going great! My boys are helping out, the 16 year old, to the 4 year old. And I have to say their help this year is actually less work for me instead of more!

Have a blessed Christmas.

God bless,
Maria

ps When do you leave? Will you have access to internet?
[/quote]

Maria:

I will be leaving in October of next year and I will have limited access to the internet

 

[MilitaryWife91]

“Now I know alot is made up of the Petra/Petros controversy. But what about the pronouns. Petros has you indicated while Petra has this. Why is that important? If Christ had meant that Peter himself was the rock, would the pronoun not stay the same. You Peter on your rock. This rock means HIS ROCK; CHRIST’S ROCK!”

jpete79–

I’m sure others will jump in to respond to what you’ve written, but I couldn’t pass up this one. You have written about the petra/petros controversy. You would see that there really is no controversy if you would go back to the original Aramaic. Christ didn’t speak the Greek words ‘petra’ or ‘petros’–he spoke the word Kephas, and the pronoun did not change. It stayed the same. And if you would dig a little further in your readings, you will see that Peter is the most spoken of, he is the first listed, and he was the Apostle the others looked to when a replacement for Judas was chosen. These, in that era, clearly show that he was the head and was looked up to as their leader. Just food for thought. I’ll let others address the other issues you raise (such as ‘scripture’ referring to the OT as there was no NT at the time).

Peace,
MW

 

[jpete79]

“Now I know alot is made up of the Petra/Petros controversy. But what about the pronouns. Petros has you indicated while Petra has this. Why is that important? If Christ had meant that Peter himself was the rock, would the pronoun not stay the same. You Peter on your rock. This rock means HIS ROCK; CHRIST’S ROCK!”

jpete79–

I’m sure others will jump in to respond to what you’ve written, but I couldn’t pass up this one. You have written about the petra/petros controversy. You would see that there really is no controversy if you would go back to the original Aramaic. Christ didn’t speak the Greek words ‘petra’ or ‘petros’–he spoke the word Kephas, and the pronoun did not change. It stayed the same. And if you would dig a little further in your readings, you will see that Peter is the most spoken of, he is the first listed, and he was the Apostle the others looked to when a replacement for Judas was chosen. These, in that era, clearly show that he was the head and was looked up to as their leader. Just food for thought. I’ll let others address the other issues you raise (such as ‘scripture’ referring to the OT as there was no NT at the time).

Peace,
MW

MW,

Nice to hear from you and God Bless you this Holiday season.

As far as those arguments go, I have to say thank you for being the first to bring up the Aramaic because it is the first time someone has stated this to me. I think that is a great thing due to the fact that I’ve heard the other arguments periodically.

I will not debate the issue a hundred times over (which is why I think I will head to the water cooler for some regular non-apologetic conversations), however; I will say that though Christ spoke in Aramaic, the words were written in Greek. Scripture (and I will get to NT being Scripture in a second) was written and is considered perfect (both Catholics and Protestants believe this). There is a reason that the pronouns were used and that Greek was used though Christ spoke Aramaic. Make of this point what you will and we can agree to disagree as long as we search for same supplier, which is Jesus Christ.

Now, for the point on Scripture. Scripture did indeed contain many elements of the New Testament when it was being written. Both in Timothy and Peter we see Paul’s Epistles defined as Scripture. I believe it was in Timothy that there was a direct reference to a Pauline letter and then afterwards he said it should be looked at for living as should “other Scripture” which means that his letters were already divinely inspired. Also, by the time of the earliest Church fathers (80’s and 90’s), both New Testament and Old Testament were continually being quoted and historians say that the Bible itself could be found in those documents by the earliest fathers which means that they knew it as Scripture as well.

Again, take from this argument what you will. Have a great and blessed Holiday Season as we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, a timeless eternal God giving us His Son in flesh so that a limited, finite mortal man can be with Him in eternity.

 

[reen12]

quote: Mickey

Originally Posted by reen12
I stand back, look at the CC,
look at Scripture, and say:
Whatever “Church” is, it’s not this.

With all due respect reen, that is a very bold statement and your opinion.

Peace,
Mickey

Dear Mickey,

I posted the following, on another Thread, this date:

quote: reen12

In over 1500 posts, there is only one that I wrote, that
I offer a sincere apology for, and of which I repent.
It was rude, insensitive and intemperate on my part.
I have no right to speak of fellow Christians and their
Church in that way.
[And what made me feel even more wretched about
this post, was the very temperate reply that I received,
from a poster whom I hold in particular respect.]
I do apologize.

Merry Christmas to all.

Maureen

[reen12]
*

Thank you, Mickey, for your kind and temperate reply to
that post.

Best,

Maureen

 

[Mickey]

reen12:

Thank you, Mickey, for your kind and temperate reply to
that post.

Hi Maureen!

Sometimes, emotions run high, or we are having a bad day, or someone rubs us the wrong way, and we end up saying something that we wish we could delete. I can’t tell you how many times I have asked God to forgive me for my lack of charity.

Peace be with you my good friend,
Mickey

 

[reen12]

Thank you for your kind acceptance of my apology,

Mickey. I try not to be uncharitable, but when I fail

in charity, I certainly seem to go “all out!”

God bless you, my friend.

reen

 

[Mickey]

reen12:

I try not to be uncharitable, but when I fail

in charity, I certainly seem to go “all out!”

Alas, the same goes with me. Don’t you just hate that fallen human nature business?

Peace,
Mickey

 

[reen12]

quote: Mickey

Alas, the same goes with me. Don’t you just hate that fallen human nature business?

Well, I’ll say this: it’s not only humiliating, it’s exasperating!

And, have you ever noticed the following:
Just when one has “succeeded” in being particularly
“good”…comes the big fall on the face?
[Pride goeth before a fall?]

In the *midst *of hearty self-congradulation -at such virtue! -
wham!! – and I’m nose-down, in the realms of lack of
charity, or arrogance or any number of unlovely realities.

Makes me yearn for heaven, where all of this ghastliness
will be thoroughly washed out, and the finest parts of us
will shine - in the reflected glory of God…each of us unique,
and grateful to the Giver of this uniqueness, rejoicing in
His presence.

reen

 

[Mickey]

reen12:

quote: Mickey

Well, I’ll say this: it’s not only humiliating, it’s exasperating!

And, have you ever noticed the following:
Just when one has “succeeded” in being particularly
“good”…comes the big fall on the face?
[Pride goeth before a fall?]

In the *midst *of hearty self-congradulation -at such virtue! -
wham!! – and I’m nose-down, in the realms of lack of
charity, or arrogance or any number of unlovely realities.

Yes. It is said that when you have conquered a passion, satan will attack you with unhealthy pride. Charity in humility is the key–but it’s so very, very difficult. Can you imagine how the monastic ascetics are tortured with the sin of pride? I shudder to think.

 

[bekalc]

I think in the end the most important thing is to follow Christ. If you are following him, everything else falls in place. I’m following him right into the Catholic Church. It’s where my convictions lay.

If the Protestants are right and God doesn’t care what church I belong to well than, I think I’m fine. because well I’m doing the Protestant thing of “following my convictions.” but in the end I’m still trusting in my salvation I’m trusting Christ.

As for Protestants, I think that Jesus words “all who call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved applies.” I realize that I don’t understand sometimes why God’s leading me to the Catholic Church and the reasons seem so obvious but he’s not leading other… In the end though I think that’s why the most important thing is to follow Jesus…

Why am I becoming Catholic. I’m becoming Catholic because all of my studies have shown me that I don’t know the right answers. That Protestantism is very confusing. It involves each group I feel taking Scripture and making it what they want to believe. I"m sick of the arguments about what Scripture means. Protestants can’t agree on many of the main issues. And they have no way of settling anything. You guys can’t even agree amongst yourselfs on concrete things like Communion, baptism, and Church government. Scripture talks about the importance of being in agreement. Jesus prayed that Christians would be one so that the world would believe their message. Scripture wouldn’t ask us to be in agreement, if agreement wasn’t possible.

You say that the Catholics lost the gospel message but can you be sure. First of all in the issues that came between the Church and Luther. The Catholics were using the Bible to refute Luther. Thet main issue actually was the bondage of the will. Catholics were affirming that human beings have free will. From my experience with Protestants, a lot of Protestants know don’t believe Luther’s gospel. The Church’s stance on the gospel justified by faith, hope, and love. Has a whole lot of Scriptural support to it.

And not only that we can show that the fathers of the Christian Church felt this way. Also all of the other ancient Churches agreed with the Catholic Church on the issues of the gospel.

Scripture says if Any one comes to you with a gospel other than the one you have accepted, to reject the person. That’s a strong emphasis that the first teaching is important. Catholics can defend their teaching on justification from Scripture quite strongly.
Even if we were to go by Scripture alone, I would still disagree with Luther on the basis of Scripture alone. However, we feel Tradition is important because it shows what we are saying also is what the Holy Spirit told the Church from the beginning. It’s part of what was the accepted Gospel.

Luther did what no Pope is allowed to do. He put himself and said what has been taught for 2,000 years is wrong! What the Church has always held is wrong… It’s a pretty strong statement. For me the fact that the Eastern Orthodox, and the Coptics, etc all agree with us on justification. Is a very strong statement that the Catholic Church’s ruling on Trent wasn’t some medieval corruption.

In fact while we were reading Ignatius, in a Protestant seminary, the teacher said. See why this guy is talking about this. This is because He doesn’t believe in the bondage of the will. Ignatius was pretty earlier. Somewhere in their the Galations" Any man comes to you with a gospel other than you have accepted falls on Luther. Igantius was around what guys 90 AD?

Even James White if I recall fully admits that the Church fathers did not believe in forensic justification. So I would say sense we Catholics can show Scriptural support for our views. You need to ask if Galations applies to the newer views. What God say one thing by the Holy Spirit to Christians for 1500 years and then say another thing…