What happens if this is true

  • Thread starter Thread starter michaelmac
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

michaelmac

Guest
Gospel of Judas rattles beliefs
Newly translated, ancient documents challenge orthodox teaching on Jesus and his betrayer
From wire services
Originally published April 7, 2006

Judas Iscariot, long reviled as history’s quintessential betrayer, was actually the best friend of Jesus and turned him over to authorities only because Jesus asked him to, according to the Gospel of Judas, a long-lost document revealed yesterday by the National Geographic Society.

The document purports to record conversations between Jesus and Judas - conversations in which Jesus shared religious secrets not known by the other disciples.

It was ruled heretical by early church leaders because of its disagreement with the conventionally accepted Gospels. Most copies were destroyed.

The discovery in the desert of Egypt of the leather-bound papyrus manuscript in the 1970s, and its translation, were announced at a news conference in Washington. The 26-page text is said to be a copy in Coptic, made about A.D. 300, of the original Gospel of Judas, which was written in Greek the century before.

Terry Garcia, an executive vice president of the geographic society, said the manuscript, or codex, is considered by scholars and scientists to be the most significant ancient, nonbiblical text found in the past 60 years.

“The codex has been authenticated as a genuine work of ancient Christian Apocryphal literature,” Garcia said, based on extensive tests of radiocarbon dating, ink analysis and multispectral imaging and studies of the script and linguistic style. The ink, for example, was consistent with ink of that era, and there was no evidence of multiple rewriting.

“This is absolutely typical of ancient Coptic manuscripts,” said Stephen Emmel, professor of Coptic studies at the University of Munster in Germany. “I am completely convinced.”

The most revealing passage in the Judas manuscript begins, “The secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot during a week, three days before he celebrated Passover.”

The account goes on to relate that Jesus refers to the other disciples, telling Judas, “You will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me.”

By that, scholars expert about early Christian thinking said, Jesus meant that by helping him to get rid of his physical flesh, Judas would act to liberate the true spiritual self or divine being within Jesus.

Unlike the accounts in the New Testament Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the anonymous author of the Gospel of Judas believed that Judas Iscariot alone among the 12 disciples understood the meaning of Jesus’ teachings and acceded to his will.

In the diversity of early Christian thought, a group known as Gnostics believed in a secret knowledge of how people could escape the prisons of their material bodies and return to the spiritual realm from which they came.

Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton who specializes in studies of the Gnostics, said in a statement, “These discoveries are exploding the myth of a monolithic religion, and demonstrating how diverse - and fascinating - the early Christian movement really was.”

The Gospel of Judas is one of many texts discovered in the past 65 years, including the gospels of Thomas, Mary Magdalene and Philip, believed to have been written by Gnostics.

The Gnostics’ beliefs were often viewed by bishops and early church leaders as unorthodox, and they frequently were denounced as heretics. The discoveries of Gnostic texts have shaken up biblical scholarship by revealing the diversity of beliefs and practices among early followers of Jesus.

As the findings have trickled down to churches and universities, they have produced a new generation of Christians who now regard the Bible not as the literal word of God but as a product of historical and political forces that determined which texts should be included in the canon and which edited out.

For that reason, the discoveries have proved deeply troubling for many believers. The Gospel of Judas portrays Judas Iscariot not as a betrayer of Jesus, but as his most favored disciple and willing collaborator.

Scholars say that they have long been on the lookout for the Gospel of Judas because of a reference to what was probably an early version of it in a text called Against Heresies, written by Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, about the year 180.

Karen L. King, a professor of the history of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School and an expert in Gnosticism who has not yet read the manuscript released yesterday, said the Gospel of Judas might well reflect the kinds of debates that arose in the second and third century among Christians.
 
Hello michaelmac,

I think logic alone tells us that Judas did not do or write something that the world would be in need of. Jesus tells us that the world would be better off had Judas never been born. If Judas was such an important key to the salvation of billions, how could the world be better off had he never existed?

Jesus spoke in the streets and many were amaized. Jesus did miracles in healing people. Jesus fed five thousand people. Tens of thousands sought Jesus out and found Him to listen to Him. It is hard to imagine Jesus would have been a hard guy to find. The Pharisees and Chief Priests would have found Jesus and killed Him regardless of Judas’s help.

Had Jesus given some secret message to Judas to be revealed to billions of people, for the benifit of their salvation, two thousand years after His death, He would not have said it would have been better had Judas never been born.

NAB MAT
“The Son of Man is departing, as Scripture says of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. Better for him if he had never been born.”
 
Hi Steven if we take the last part of your post, as Gospel, then all of the Hirarchy of the church has betrayed him, because when they allow slander to become truth , they betray Christs teaching , any one can attack me only ,when they do they also turn there backs on Christs teaching yours michaelmac
 
Michael-- Nothing happens at all.

This is not a canonical work, it is a Gnostic “gospel” and it is not authentically Christian. It is a story, written at least in the 2nd century if not later.

The Church knows what she is about. The Church did not accept this book or the hundreds of other such gospels that were floating around in the early centuries.

The criteria for canonical inclusion are quite clear and this book met none of that criteria. So, you can rest assured that it not Christian.
 
Yes, there were heresies and heretics which arose in the early centuries of the church. Some of these groups made apocryphal writings with an agenda to support their particular heresy. This is not surprising. What is surprising is that people 2000 years later take these writings seriously, acting as if they were something new. That is why the apostles were given authority by Christ, to ensure that his message was handed down faithfully, knowing that there would be people who would distort it.
 
If Judas was so special, wise, ‘n’ spiritual…why would he have scampered off and missed the very first Eucharist???
 
Michaelmac,

The question is irrelevant because the Gospel of Judas is not true. It was known and condemned as being in error around the third century. Just because something dates from the time of the early Church does not make it a writing of the early Church. There was a lot of nonsense being written back then just as there is a lot of nonsense being written nowadays.
  • Liberian
 
Hmmmm…so…do yo think this will help Protestants realize that it was the CHURCH that decided what was and wasn’t inspired and what to include and what not to include in Sacred Scripture?

Does this help people who never give a thought on how the Bible came about an indication that there were hundreds of writings that had to be discerned and that the Table of Contents didn’t drop out of the sky?

I hope this sparks some thought on the how the Bible came into being for many Protestants.
 
Hi

First, Judas tried to ‘fix’ what he had done by saying he betrayed innocent blood, and gave the money back (Which they then used to buy a field to bury him). Does this sound like someone who agreed to ‘help’ save the world? Then, when that didn’t work he went and hung huimself, does that sound like someone who would have been assured of heaven? (Presumably he would have been, having been a ‘saviour’ of sorts). On top of the fact that Irenaeus (i, 31, 1):
Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.
seems to have de-bunked this back around the year 180. There really is nothing new under the sun.

Peace

John
 
If an American today wrote a book about the war of 1812, would it make sense for someone in 3906 AD to refer to it as true historical insight? Why should this gnostic writing be so elevated as to “rattle beliefs”?

Seems awfully sensational and out of context to me.

Blessings,
Shannon
-=-=-
 
40.png
epicrecipe:
If an American today wrote a book about the war of 1812, would it make sense for someone in 3906 AD to refer to it as true historical insight? Why should this gnostic writing be so elevated as to “rattle beliefs”?
Shannon,

That is a SPLENDID insight!
  • Liberian
 
Gnostics wrote all kinds of nonsense hundreds of years after Jesus died. There’s no reason to take any of it seriously.

It’s like Socratic dialogues, really. We take Plato’s, Xenophon’s and Aristrippus’s dialogues all as serious evidence since they were friends of Socrates. However, a dialogue written in 200 B.C. would never be taken as credible evidence of anything Socrates said.

Like Socratic dialogues, Gospels later became a kind of genre for people to write stories with their own interpretations of what Jesus meant. However, none of it is credible evidence except those from the first century.
 
40.png
michaelmac:
Hi Steven if we take the last part of your post, as Gospel, then all of the Hirarchy of the church has betrayed him, because when they allow slander to become truth , they betray Christs teaching , any one can attack me only ,when they do they also turn there backs on Christs teaching yours michaelmac
If you have a bee in your bonnet over something the hierarchy has done, why not just come out with it instead starting a discussion about a long abandoned (and for good reason) old Gnostic manuscript that has already been discussed to death on the forum?

You know, we can’t help you with whatever is really bothering you if you don’t articulate it to us in plain writing. So, please do so. We won’t faint, or scream, or run away and stick our heads in the sand. We know the bishops of the Church aren’t perfect–the Church has never claimed they are. So, just say what’s on your mind and let’s talk about it.
 
Why wouldn’t have Judas written? I think that it is very probable that these papers are genuinely from Judas Iscariot. But that does not mean that he was a rational person whose writing we should read. After all, there’s a good chance that every serial killer, rapist has written down their thoughts. That doesn’t mean I want to read them - even if someone thinks the documents are relevant for historical facts. Especially if one is looking for some sort of spiritual reading.

There is one thing that has always bothered me about Judas. It seems to be readily accepted that he is in everlasing hell fire. While I can see that too, what bothers me is that it does seem like he could have felt that he was “doing God’s will” and “following God’s plan”. So as I go through my days trying to find what God’s will is for me - sometime I happen upon Judas and I wonder. What was God’s will for Judas? Then my thoughts were futher frustrated when I read in a book written by St Francis de Sales that we should love God completely and be willing to do whatever he would ask of us “even if it means going to hell”. Go to hell for doing God’s will??? wow what am I to make of that?

Has anyone else thought about that?

Terry
 
40.png
homewardangel:
Why wouldn’t have Judas written? I think that it is very probable that these papers are genuinely from Judas Iscariot.
These papers date from the early to mid 2nd century. About 100 years after the death of Christ. Do you really believe that Judas lived that long?

All the valid Gospels date from Apostolics times, 50-90 AD, this one is well after the ‘fact’.
There is one thing that has always bothered me about Judas. It seems to be readily accepted that he is in everlasing hell fire. While I can see that too, what bothers me is that it does seem like he could have felt that he was “doing God’s will” and “following God’s plan”.
Well, Christ said that he would have been better off if He had never been born.

That would be pretty hard to say if Judas was looking at spending Enternity in Heaven.

And no, Judas was not following God’s Will, God forsaw what what would happen to His Son, and sent Him anyway. He did not, and does not, Ordain Sin or Damnation.

God’s Will for Judas was that he repent of any sin and seek forgiveness from God.

Judas did what he did from his own Free Will. Really, what he did was not that different from what Peter did in his denials. The difference was that Peter rose above dispair and sought forgiveness, Judas gave into dispair and destroyed himself.
 
Brendan

Yes I agree completely with you. And think about how Judas would have been handled if he would have repented instead of hanging himself. He could have become the patron saint for those who feel that they have done the unforgivable.

My confusion is supported by St Francis de Sales writing. When it was said that we should love God so much that we would do anything for Him - “even go to hell”. I try to learn from many saints and I would truly love to understand what was meant by that line. Was it literal - as in we should love God enough to suffer eternal damnation for Him. I have often wondered if this was meant in the terms of even go thru hell, as in going thru hell here on earth.

Has anyone else read the book “Finding Gods Will for You”?

Terru
 
This is the same sort of silliness that surrounds the DaVinci Code.

Let’s suppose for a second that Dan Brown is right and DaVinci believed Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a child together. So what? How would he know? He wasn’t there. He is CENTURIES removed from the facts.

The “Gospel of Judas” is nothing but a very early “DaVinci Code” style of writing seeking to leech fame, prestige and perhaps power off of authentic christianity.

Just because something is old, doesn’t make it true, folks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top