- Status
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Doxiemom
Guest
A person who rejects God and says there is no God but embraces Evil, even if that person does does accept Evil as being an entity, sends himself to hell.
Having said that, I think there are really few true atheists. Most are agnostic, still full of seeking thruth.
My hope is that there is always room for salvation for everyone. Our God is an Awesome God and , it is true that it is through Jesus Christ that one enters into Heaven. We just do not know exactly how powerful His Love for us all is and what it can make possible for these seekers.
Having said that, I think there are really few true atheists. Most are agnostic, still full of seeking thruth.
My hope is that there is always room for salvation for everyone. Our God is an Awesome God and , it is true that it is through Jesus Christ that one enters into Heaven. We just do not know exactly how powerful His Love for us all is and what it can make possible for these seekers.
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AntiTheist
Guest
Most atheists do, yes. All the evidence we have indicates that consciousness is tied to brain activity; when brain activity stops, it is very, very likely that consciousness will end as well.
Well, if it is true that this is the one and only life we will ever have, then there is a great deal of motivation for working together with others to build the best possible life that we can in the here and now. Furthermore, there is a great motivation for improving this life – if not only for ourselves, then for the generations that will follow us. I certainly would like my descendents to live the one and only life they’ll ever have in a good environment.
In short, there are plenty of good, secular reasons to “behave.”
Certainly there will always be people – whether religious or not – who need the threat of society’s punishment (in the form of prison or speeding tickets or something like that) to behave. That’s why we put those systems of punishment into place. But for the most part, I’ve found that people – whether religious or not – generally do not go around in their day to day life with a great desire to do bad things, held back only by the threat of punishment.
Most people, for example, don’t walk around desperately wanting to commit murder and having to continuously remind themselves that they will face prison if they give in to that desire.
Most people simply don’t have a desire to commit terrible acts; and for those people who do, we have social controls in place to discourage them. That’s about it.
Whether you believe in gods or not, you have a lot of good reasons in the here and now to do good.
No. There is no connection between rejecting the claim that supernatural beings exist and being a self-centered person.
The fact of the matter is that we’re social animals that live in a cooperative society. Most of us want to cooperate with other people, and all of us have really good reasons for cooperating with other people, whether we believe in gods or not.
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AnAtheist
Guest
Oh, I totally agree. But that has nothing to do with Heaven and Hell and that people cannot behave, if there were no such places or no belief in them.
I tend to agree that many, even most people will behave better under the threat of eternal punishment and prospect of eternal reward, but that does not make the real existence of such punishment and reward in any way more likely.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Athiests,
Most of you have made several good points here, in your posts. I think that many of you would make a good Christians/Catholics. What do you have you lose be accepting Christian truths, the answer is, nothing, you have nothing to lose.
Having God in your life wouldn’t hurt…
On the other hand, if Christianity does represent the truth….then as an Atheist, you are in a dangerous predicament, where you may fine out that Hell is a real place and that Hell is where people go, who reject God.
Atheism is the rejection of God the father, God the Son- Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit. Rejection of God; the Holy Trinity, is a mortal sin. As far as sins go, it ranks right up there with murder…if not worse… same penalty.
You can be polite and nice to people and still be in danger of going to Hell.
Think about recent historical events involving Serial Killers, who where unassuming and thought to be “nice” and polite by the people around them. However, when the day came, when they were finally caught and arrested, their neighbors and co-workers respond by saying something like, “He seemed like a nice guy, I would have never expected the he would do something like that”.
If you are making the effort to be good, then why not be a Christian, because all goodness emanates from God?
What, specifically, is it that Jesus taught the you have a disagreement with?
I made a comment here earlier, where I said that Atheism creates self-centeredness and of course, an Atheist here immediately rejected that notion. However, it is true, Atheists are self-centered because they want there actions to create a positive result or pay-off, where they benefit; “it’s all about me” or, “what will I get out of it?” How is that not self-centeredness?
Here is another example; An Atheist speaking - “Because I am so smart and I have figured it all out, on my own, I think that vast majority of all those who have ever lived, including those highly educated persons who believed in God, were all wrong and I’m right, because I’m smarter than all those people who have ever lived and who had a belief in God.”
Now, for a general comment and this is my own opinion; From debating with Atheists here at CAF, I have come away with impression that for the most part, many of them are pretty impressed with themselves and with their own intellect….they are basically, a member of a their own religion, a religion one…a religion of their on intellect. What I see lacking in Atheism is true humility and the ability to surrender to something larger than yourself.
**May I suggest reading the Shorter Summa, by Saint Thomas Aquinas? This book will provide insights into the major topics of theology. **
Most of you have made several good points here, in your posts. I think that many of you would make a good Christians/Catholics. What do you have you lose be accepting Christian truths, the answer is, nothing, you have nothing to lose.
Having God in your life wouldn’t hurt…
On the other hand, if Christianity does represent the truth….then as an Atheist, you are in a dangerous predicament, where you may fine out that Hell is a real place and that Hell is where people go, who reject God.
Atheism is the rejection of God the father, God the Son- Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit. Rejection of God; the Holy Trinity, is a mortal sin. As far as sins go, it ranks right up there with murder…if not worse… same penalty.
You can be polite and nice to people and still be in danger of going to Hell.
Think about recent historical events involving Serial Killers, who where unassuming and thought to be “nice” and polite by the people around them. However, when the day came, when they were finally caught and arrested, their neighbors and co-workers respond by saying something like, “He seemed like a nice guy, I would have never expected the he would do something like that”.
If you are making the effort to be good, then why not be a Christian, because all goodness emanates from God?
What, specifically, is it that Jesus taught the you have a disagreement with?
I made a comment here earlier, where I said that Atheism creates self-centeredness and of course, an Atheist here immediately rejected that notion. However, it is true, Atheists are self-centered because they want there actions to create a positive result or pay-off, where they benefit; “it’s all about me” or, “what will I get out of it?” How is that not self-centeredness?
Here is another example; An Atheist speaking - “Because I am so smart and I have figured it all out, on my own, I think that vast majority of all those who have ever lived, including those highly educated persons who believed in God, were all wrong and I’m right, because I’m smarter than all those people who have ever lived and who had a belief in God.”
Now, for a general comment and this is my own opinion; From debating with Atheists here at CAF, I have come away with impression that for the most part, many of them are pretty impressed with themselves and with their own intellect….they are basically, a member of a their own religion, a religion one…a religion of their on intellect. What I see lacking in Atheism is true humility and the ability to surrender to something larger than yourself.
**May I suggest reading the Shorter Summa, by Saint Thomas Aquinas? This book will provide insights into the major topics of theology. **
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Nebogipfel
Guest
Apart from all that time sitting in church when I could be doing something useful.
But this is just Pascal’s Wager. As Homer Simpson put it, what if I picked the wrong God? Every week I’d just be making the real one madder and madder.No, atheism is just not believing in any kind of divine being. If that is “sin” equivalent to murder… well, that says more about “God” than it says about me.
One could make the same comment about priests who abuse children. Seriously, this “athiest today, serial killer tomorrow” stuff is just plain bigotry. It’s not even like it can be supported by any evidence.Why not be a Muslim? Or a Hindu? Or a Buddhist? It seems there are good and bad people in all cross sections of society. Being religious seems neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for being good.
Since you have already decided this is true, I doubt that there is anything I can say that will change your mind. Perhaps I could just ask you to re-read the comments posted by non-believers in answer to your thread a bit more carefully?
I don’t actually think being smart has anything to do with it. There are smart atheists and there are stupid atheists, just as there are smart religious folk and stupid religious folk. Yes, I have weighed up my own experiences with religion and belief, tried to think objectively about the tenets of Christianity and other religions, and come to the conclusion, that, of all the hundreds of different ideas that different people have had about God and gods through the ages, probably none of them are actually right. Is it arrogant or boastful of me to just come out and say this? Strange, isn’t it, that religious folk don’t get to be intolerant extremists until they’ve actually killed or injured someone, yet atheists can be intolerant extremists simply by opening their mouths…
Of course, it’s just completely inconceivable that someone might have no religion.
Really, read some Carl Sagan, or even The Blind Watchmaker; Dawkins describes himself as being humbled by the contemplation of the history revealed by evolutionary biology.
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AntiTheist
Guest
Jimmy B:
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AnAtheist
Guest
That depends heavily on the god. There are a great many gods in this world, i.e. thought by men, I can gladly have in my life. Thor, Venus, Vidar, … No, this is no joke, it is about the concept that stands behinds those gods, and it is not about believing in them but to honour what they represent. The concept behind the Christian God is simply illogical, unsound, and I dare say impossible. Agreed there are aspects that I could honour but then there are other I can’t, mainly due to that fact that this god is supposed to encompass virtually everything.
Oh, many things. First off “love thy enemy” and “if someone strikes you on the cheek, turn to him the other”, that is so utterly stupid that even the Christians don’t do it. Then he has distorted sense of justice, e.g. punishing things for the way he (as God) has created them (Mk 11,13f). This “who is not with me is against me”-attitude, that phrase was used by George W. Bush, Joseph Goebbels, and Darth Vader too. Then he turns old testament crimes into thought crimes.
On the positive side: I like the “plank and speck” teaching, the advice that the Sabbath was made for man not the other way round, and how he came up with the Pater Noster. Strangely I rarely see those teachings reaching Christian ears.
Let me cite the Iliad, a short conversation between Apollon and Achilles:
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Tietjen
Guest
The Church teaches faith and works. Therefore, in order to have faith in Christ one MUST believe in Him first, yes?
R
reen12
Guest
What happens to Atheists after death?
Generally, they’re buried.
To paraphrase Father Benedict Groeschel
[the priest/psychologist:]
I have friends who are atheists.
They make very good friends, because
they think that when life ends - it ends.
So they work at relationships, here.
I have two wonderful friends, both of whom
are atheists, both of whom are charity itself.
I’m hoping that God will place them near to me,
in His Kingdom. I can’t wait to see the joy
and astonishment on their faces, when they
hear the words:
Come, ye blessed of My Kingdom…
For I was hurting - and you helped me.
Because when you helped those who
were hurting on earth, you did so to Me.
You did not work for a ‘reward,’ in the life to come -
because you didn’t think that there was a heaven.
This was genuine love and true charity.
Come into My eternal joy.
reen12
Generally, they’re buried. 
To paraphrase Father Benedict Groeschel[the priest/psychologist:]
I have friends who are atheists.
They make very good friends, because
they think that when life ends - it ends.
So they work at relationships, here.
I have two wonderful friends, both of whom
are atheists, both of whom are charity itself.
I’m hoping that God will place them near to me,
in His Kingdom. I can’t wait to see the joy
and astonishment on their faces, when they
hear the words:
Come, ye blessed of My Kingdom…
For I was hurting - and you helped me.
Because when you helped those who
were hurting on earth, you did so to Me.
You did not work for a ‘reward,’ in the life to come -
because you didn’t think that there was a heaven.
This was genuine love and true charity.
Come into My eternal joy.
reen12
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AJTheMan
Guest
Atheists who are not religious generally believe that there is no afterlife or that the afterlife is universal. (Open door policy)
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yankee_doodle
Guest
same thing that happens to everyone else. Our bodies decompose.
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TKTsunami
Guest
Alright, ladies and gentlemen, I’m going to stick my neck into it.
We are told that we must accept certain truths to be Christians, one of which is that God exists, another which is that He loves us, a third still, that His Son died for our sins. We are given a promise that salvation is through the Church. We sacramentally enter that promise (that new Covenant) through baptism, reconciliation and confirmation. If you don’t believe that, you aren’t Catholic.
This is faith. But we must recognize that one never presented in their life with such a promise (and the lifelong commitment it entails) is not responsible for not playing along in a game they weren’t aware of. So we have the concept of invincible ignorance. But like the souls in Dante’s Limbo, there is still the question of where the dice will fall. Will a person choose God? We don’t know. Free will exists, and every man, given knowledge, is capable of willing imprudently. And invincible ignorance is not a “get out of morality free” card, even for those who legitimately have it, because bad habits can make bad people; before Christ came, man was able to sin, the Jews because they had the Divine Law, and the Gentiles against the law written upon their hearts. Likewise, the invincibly ignorant can sin, the punishment of sin is itself sin, and the wages of sin, naturally and supernaturally, is death.
So it should be made VERY UNDENIABLY clear that baptism of desire, the one way through which those not baptized in water may be saved (and which itself is not entirely worked out doctrinally, but which is entirely dependent on God, the untamed lion, so no banking on circumstance) is NOT something we may say is for the most part. It may be given to most, or to none, or maybe even to only one. We haven’t a clue, frankly. But we do have hope in the knowledge that God loves us and wants us to be with Him. Period.
Practical recap: Atheists, you might get lucky, but we have no idea, so if you’re banking on luck, it’s a really bad idea, and you should get yourself a right proper baptizin’.
If anything I have said is imprudent or incorrect, I humbly submit to the Magisterium of the Church.
We are told that we must accept certain truths to be Christians, one of which is that God exists, another which is that He loves us, a third still, that His Son died for our sins. We are given a promise that salvation is through the Church. We sacramentally enter that promise (that new Covenant) through baptism, reconciliation and confirmation. If you don’t believe that, you aren’t Catholic.
This is faith. But we must recognize that one never presented in their life with such a promise (and the lifelong commitment it entails) is not responsible for not playing along in a game they weren’t aware of. So we have the concept of invincible ignorance. But like the souls in Dante’s Limbo, there is still the question of where the dice will fall. Will a person choose God? We don’t know. Free will exists, and every man, given knowledge, is capable of willing imprudently. And invincible ignorance is not a “get out of morality free” card, even for those who legitimately have it, because bad habits can make bad people; before Christ came, man was able to sin, the Jews because they had the Divine Law, and the Gentiles against the law written upon their hearts. Likewise, the invincibly ignorant can sin, the punishment of sin is itself sin, and the wages of sin, naturally and supernaturally, is death.
So it should be made VERY UNDENIABLY clear that baptism of desire, the one way through which those not baptized in water may be saved (and which itself is not entirely worked out doctrinally, but which is entirely dependent on God, the untamed lion, so no banking on circumstance) is NOT something we may say is for the most part. It may be given to most, or to none, or maybe even to only one. We haven’t a clue, frankly. But we do have hope in the knowledge that God loves us and wants us to be with Him. Period.
Practical recap: Atheists, you might get lucky, but we have no idea, so if you’re banking on luck, it’s a really bad idea, and you should get yourself a right proper baptizin’.
If anything I have said is imprudent or incorrect, I humbly submit to the Magisterium of the Church.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Nice post and appreciate and I agree with most of it…
However…
Who are these so-called “invincibly ignorant”, who supposedly exist in the year 2009?
Are they the adult Atheists’, brought-up in he Western World and whom, have had access to books, the radio, television and an educational system. Where among other things, they learned about science, history, math and how to read and write?
I don’t think so.
For most Atheists’, capable of responding in this forum, I believe that their rejection of God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, is willful and with their full knowledge.
I believe that most Atheists know of the “Story of Jesus Christ” and that they are also aware that a vast majority of the Human Population - believe in God and also know the story, involving His Son Jesus.
After all, many Atheists claim to be Atheist, because of “modern science” or because, after reviewing or investigating religion(s), they came away with their own conclusion that there is no God. For the most part and for most Atheists, Atheism is not an accident.
How is it possible to be aware of science and the universe and totally ignorant of the concept of God, the Bible and a belief that God created the Universe… and that he had a Son named Jesus Christ, who was crucified…It isn’t possible!
Additionally, Baptism of Desire is for those, who through no fault of their own, were never baptized and it also involves “desire”.
I’ve heard these kinds of claims before, where Christians find themselves in the awkward position of defending Atheists’. This is a bunch of nonsense. I don’t have that problem; I believe that anyone who willfully rejects God is going to Hell. In addition, my experience has been that most people think that Atheists’ are a little odd and there is usually something else weird, going on in their lives, other than Atheism.
I’m an orthodox, Roman Catholic and I know that liberal views towards Atheists just leads to more Atheists….that’s all… And that ain’t a good thing because Atheism is the most self-center, arrogant, conceded, “it all about me and what I think”, evil, becuase it go against God; movement there is.
After all, these are people, who claim to be “smarter” than God is and “smarter” than everybody who has ever believed in God….Self-Centered…Yep! Am I going to have an Atheist over for a bar-be-Q any time soon? I doubt it. For the most part, I try to avoid Atheists.
Who are we kidding here? Not me!
Nice post though.
However…
Who are these so-called “invincibly ignorant”, who supposedly exist in the year 2009?
Are they the adult Atheists’, brought-up in he Western World and whom, have had access to books, the radio, television and an educational system. Where among other things, they learned about science, history, math and how to read and write?
I don’t think so.
For most Atheists’, capable of responding in this forum, I believe that their rejection of God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, is willful and with their full knowledge.
I believe that most Atheists know of the “Story of Jesus Christ” and that they are also aware that a vast majority of the Human Population - believe in God and also know the story, involving His Son Jesus.
After all, many Atheists claim to be Atheist, because of “modern science” or because, after reviewing or investigating religion(s), they came away with their own conclusion that there is no God. For the most part and for most Atheists, Atheism is not an accident.
How is it possible to be aware of science and the universe and totally ignorant of the concept of God, the Bible and a belief that God created the Universe… and that he had a Son named Jesus Christ, who was crucified…It isn’t possible!
Additionally, Baptism of Desire is for those, who through no fault of their own, were never baptized and it also involves “desire”.
I’ve heard these kinds of claims before, where Christians find themselves in the awkward position of defending Atheists’. This is a bunch of nonsense. I don’t have that problem; I believe that anyone who willfully rejects God is going to Hell. In addition, my experience has been that most people think that Atheists’ are a little odd and there is usually something else weird, going on in their lives, other than Atheism.
I’m an orthodox, Roman Catholic and I know that liberal views towards Atheists just leads to more Atheists….that’s all… And that ain’t a good thing because Atheism is the most self-center, arrogant, conceded, “it all about me and what I think”, evil, becuase it go against God; movement there is.
After all, these are people, who claim to be “smarter” than God is and “smarter” than everybody who has ever believed in God….Self-Centered…Yep! Am I going to have an Atheist over for a bar-be-Q any time soon? I doubt it. For the most part, I try to avoid Atheists.
Who are we kidding here? Not me!
Nice post though.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Nice post and appreciate and I agree with most of it…
However…
Who are these so-called “invincibly ignorant”, who supposedly exist in the year 2009?
Are they the adult Atheists’, brought-up in the Western World and whom, have had access to books, the radio, television and an educational system. Where among other things, they learned about science, history, math and how to read and write?
I don’t think so.
For most Atheists’, capable of responding in this forum, I believe that their rejection of God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, is willful and with their full knowledge.
I believe that most Atheists know of the “Story of Jesus Christ” and that they are also aware that a vast majority of the Human Population - believe in God and also know the story, involving His Son Jesus.
After all, many Atheists claim to be Atheist, because of “modern science” or because, after reviewing or investigating religion(s), they came away with their own conclusion that there is no God. For the most part and for most Atheists, Atheism is not an accident.
How is it possible to be aware of science and the universe and totally ignorant of the concept of God, the Bible and a belief that God created the Universe… and that he had a Son named Jesus Christ, who was crucified…It isn’t possible!
Additionally, Baptism of Desire is for those, who through no fault of their own, were never baptized and it also involves “desire”.
I’ve heard these kinds of claims before, where Christians find themselves in the awkward position of defending Atheists’. This is a bunch of nonsense. I don’t have that problem; I believe that anyone who willfully rejects God is going to Hell. In addition, my experience has been that most people think that Atheists’ are a little odd and there is usually something else weird, going on in their lives, other than Atheism.
I’m an orthodox, Roman Catholic and I know that liberal views towards Atheists just leads to more Atheists….that’s all… And that ain’t a good thing because Atheism is the most self-center, arrogant, conceded, “it all about me and what I think”, evil, because it go against God; movement there is.
After all, these are people, who claim to be “smarter” than God is and “smarter” than everybody who has ever believed in God….Self-Centered…Yep! Am I going to have an Atheist over for a bar-be-Q any time soon? I doubt it. For the most part, I try to avoid Atheists.
Who are we kidding here? Not me!
Just out of curiosity, how many Atheists here, are there, who are routinely involved in and behavior, or in a lifestyle, or have beliefs that conflict with the teachings of the Catholic Church?
How many Atheist here, are involved in Witchcraft, Astrology, Psychics, Goth or Emmo or Satanic rituals and so on…? Just wondering
Nice post though.
A
AntiTheist
Guest
For me, personally, my rejection of those concepts is indeed willful.
Well, since you say below that you don’t associate with atheists, your claim here needs to be taken with more than a few grains of salt. Speaking as someone who knows a fair number of atheists, I can say that the atheists I know are as relatively “normal” as the believers I know.
So you keep saying. You seem to have missed the post where I not only deny that point, I supply evidence that demonstrates that you are wrong – like, for example, atheists I know who give selflessly of their time to help others.
Again, no atheist thinks he is “smarter than God” – atheists don’t think that God – any god – is real, so it’s impossible to be “smarter” than a fictional character.
And again, as I said in my other posts, we’re not “smarter” than others in history, per se – we just have access to more information. Similarly, we know enough now to conclude that the earth is round; that doesn’t mean we’re “smarter” than those who didn’t have the same amount of information available to them.
Well, you’ve certainly done a good job avoiding my posts, as you do not address anything I’ve said and continue to repeat falsehoods.
In all seriousness, if you actually got to know some atheists, I think your rather bigotted position would change radically. In fact, chances are pretty good that you know some atheists already – just atheists who aren’t outspoken about their lack of belief.
A large number of atheists are skeptics, so you won’t often find them subscribing to other kinds of supernatural claims.
A
Angels_Unaware
Guest
Interestingly, the notion of a delayed reward or punishment is a very poor shaper of immediate behavior. It isn’t likely that the notion of heaven or hell motivates many people in most of their behavior given the failure of other types of delayed rewards and delayed punishment to alter behavior for most people. There are some people who are motivated in some ways, or nobody would finish school or pay off a debt.
Even though I am not an atheist, I agree with you that reward and punishment in the form of heaven and hell have little to do with the existence of moral and alturistic impulses. People have an inner sense of what is right and wrong and who has integrity and who does not that is just part of them. They don’t need to be trained to have that sense of right and wrong, and they don’t even need to perceive a benefit to themselves or their social group (which would be the next argument about why humans are moral.)
F
fultonfish
Guest
God has an AMAZING sense of humor. [Witness: the platypus.]
So, consider that after death an atheist might find himself or herself in a comfortable office, sitting across from God. And God says, “Well, ummm, I’ll give you a chance to explain why I’m not real. While you’re thinking about what you might want to say, would you like a coffee?”
[Maybe it’s just me, but God is Love and He might want to give some folks one last chance.]
It’s His call.
So, consider that after death an atheist might find himself or herself in a comfortable office, sitting across from God. And God says, “Well, ummm, I’ll give you a chance to explain why I’m not real. While you’re thinking about what you might want to say, would you like a coffee?”
[Maybe it’s just me, but God is Love and He might want to give some folks one last chance.]
It’s His call.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
done
- Status