What happens to babies and children in heaven?

[tonyrey]

Quite right. But perhaps you care to explain what “beyond” menas in this context.
Is “our” space-time a subspace of a higher dimensional realm, where Heaven in embedded in other dimensions, and our time doesn’t pass in Heaven, because ∂x/∂t = 0, but we somehow do change there because ∂x/∂xn ≠ 0, n > 3?

Your concept of heaven is embedded in a physicalist view of reality…

 

[AnAtheist]

Your concept of heaven is embedded in a physicalist view of reality…

So Heaven is not thinkable in mathematical and thus rational terms?

 

[tonyrey]

So Heaven is not thinkable in mathematical and thus rational terms?

There is no evidence that even in this world persons or rationality can be quantified and reduced to mathematical descriptions…

 

[tonyrey]

So Heaven is not thinkable in mathematical and thus rational terms?

There is no evidence that even in this world persons or rationality can be quantified and reduced to mathematical descriptions…
BTW Why are we responsible for what we did several years ago given that most of the cells in our body have changed?

 

[AnAtheist]

There is no evidence that even in this world persons or rationality can be quantified and reduced to mathematical descriptions…

Maybe, but things that change can be described in mathematical terms. If we change in Heaven then this change can de described mathematically. Or do you disagree?

BTW Why are we responsible for what we did several years ago given that most of the cells in our body have changed?

A certain book remains a certain even if you exchange some pages with new copies. A forest remains the same forest even if the trees change.

 

[sandyelder]

This is an extremely interesting thread, even if it did get hijacked on the way. Some thoughts for your consideration –

“everyone will have the opportunity to develop in their capacity for understanding, creativity, appreciation of beauty and love”
This seems to imply that we continue to progress and improve in Heaven. If so, to what purpose? What is our ‘capacity’ and is it different for each individual? Why are we not perfected in God when we enter Heaven?

“we do know no one would be penalized through no fault of their own - given that God is infinitely good and loving…Whether he/she is baptized does not affect his/her joy and fulfilment in heaven because baptism is intended for those who wish to be totally identified with Jesus and share in His love, suffering, death, burial and resurrection in this life.”
Such a statement seems to be in inherent conflict with itself. Billions have died without baptism. If God is infinitely good and loving, why then would He deny them Heaven - “penalize them through no fault of their own”? It also seems counter-intuitive that one’s joy and fulfillment would not be impacted by one’s baptism status. Would not everyone want to be totally identified with Jesus? As such, one’s lack of baptism would preclude them from such joy and fulfillment.

“Without bodies, they cannot learn through sense perception, which is the only way that we learn while on earth.”
Does not the Holy Spirit teach us truth directly to our souls? Are divine impressions dependent upon our physical environment?

“This does not mean, of course, that those who are not baptised cannot reach heaven.”
Unless you believe in multiple ‘heavens’, this can not be true.

Finally, to the original question. I believe babies and children, whether baptized or not, are perfect and pure, being unable to choose between right and wrong (a necessary predicate for sin) and are taken to Heaven upon death, perfect and pure, having claim on the grace of Jesus for their forgiveness.

 

[TKTsunami]

Okay, seriously, folks, we can do better than this for clarity.

Atheist: You used a derivation equation to indicate the absurdity of things changing and not changing, which is well (because if Heavenly life really presented such a contradiction then it WOULD be a problem) but it just REEKS of posing a question in deliberately obscure terms. Not even all atheists are mathematicians. And on the subject of mathematics, we speak of math in three ways: as it is in things (physics), as it is abstracted from things (Euclidean Mathematics) and as it is “abstracted” (as it were) from the abstraction (Dedekind’s numbers, or any system of so-called “pure math”.) One is present in the particular manner that created things are (and God is not a created thing, by definition), the second is present in the manner that a triangle is said to be “a figure possessing three angles” without any reference to an actual “triangular” (that is, denominatively named) thing (which is present in the manner that an idea is present, which is a thing held in the mind, and God is not held in the mind (of man…there’s some stuff to do with the way the Son proceeds that is rather trippy), being uncreated), and the third isn’t present in reality except in the mind, and that questionably.

Now, God existing in reality, yet in an uncreated way, means math can’t apply to him. Period. He is SO necessary that by definition, to try and number him is like trying to hold the complexity that exceeds the mind in the mind. The Trinity then becomes a mystery in its numerical aspect, because His simplicity being a consequence of His necessity combines with our inability to understand what is perfectly simple in terms of our complex modes of knowing.

How is there time? Not as we know. We would live in God’s very Life, knowing Him with His mode of knowing, which is already pretty trippy. But from the removal of time’s limits we come to understand eternity. Time, according to Aristotle, is “the number of motion according to before and after.” It includes in this account succession, a beginning and end, and a “before and after”, all of which are not present in eternity since they are limits pertaining to changing things. Thus Thomas says that “eternity is known from two facts: first, because what is eternal is interminable–that is, has no beginning or end (that is, no term either way); second, because eternity itself has no succession, being simultaneously whole.”

The mystery, so to speak, of eternity is we have NO way of thinking about it. It’s simply beyond our comprehension. We are perfectly unable to conceive of “time” without succession, before and after, beginning and end. We try thinking of absolute stillness, but even that is impossible; we live in a world of motion and sensation. So there’s no time in that sense.

Bodily speaking, I haven’t much to bring to the table, but Augustine did claim that the souls will be in their prime, bodily; my 80 year old grandmother will be once again a sprightly 20something (or maybe 33, Augustine claimed it was the perfect age) and those infants that die baptized (or unbaptized, maybe; I’m not THAT crazy about everything he said) will probably find themselves in a distinctly different state.

 

[fred_stoutland]

There are two issues here. One is the degree of maturity of those in Heaven and the other is what happens to unbaptized infants who die.

let me address the first. If a baptized baby dies and goes to Heaven, they would have full use of their intellectual faculties and for all intents and purposes, we would consider them adults. They might have less experiential knowledge than say one of the martyrs, but they would be no less “mature”. Oumode of learning in Heaven would be very different from what it is on earth, so while we might be inclined to think that they would need “time” to learn, that is not the case. Learning would have to occur through infusion or some other means were do not understand. Without bodies, they cannot learn through sense perception, which is the only way that we learn while on earth.

 

[fred_stoutland]

I quite agree with you. And I add to it with saying that the Bible does not specifically answer this question. Will babies and children who die still be babies/children in Heaven? What about elderly people who die–do they remain elderly in heaven? Some have guessed that babies are given a resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:35-49) that is “fast-forwarded” to the “ideal age,” just as those who die at an old age are “re-wound” to the ideal age. This would indicate that there won’t be any children or elderly people in heaven.

What is the ideal age? Again, this concept is not specifically biblical. Some believe it to be around 30. Some guess 33 since that is approximately the age Jesus was when He died. First John 3:2 declares, “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

One thing is for certain. Whatever age we appear to be when in the eternal heaven, we will be gloriously perfect. Our entire person will be remade flawless, wholly and completely Christ-like. We will lose all trace of human fallenness, wearing the proverbial white robes of purity, holiness and absolute perfection. So whatever age we are, it will be the age of complete and total perfection.

 

[tonyrey]

Maybe, but things that change can be described in mathematical terms. If we change in Heaven then this change can be described mathematically. Or do you disagree?

Yes! There are two main theories about the nature of mathematics:

1. It is an arbitrary set of rules and their implications.
2. It reflects truths about physical reality.
   In neither case is there any evidence that it applies to spiritual reality. There is also a Platonist view of mathematics but I don’t think that would appeal to you!

A certain book remains a certain even if you exchange some pages with new copies. A forest remains the same forest even if the trees change.

Neither books nor forests are rational beings responsible for their behaviour…

 

[tonyrey]

“everyone will have the opportunity to develop in their capacity for understanding, creativity, appreciation of beauty and love.”
This seems to imply that we continue to progress and improve in Heaven. If so, to what purpose?

Your question implies that every activity must have a purpose beyond itself - which results in an infinite regress of purposes! Don’t you ever pursue activities for their own sake without thinking of the consequences? If there is an ultimate purpose it must be fulfilment - which we discover most of all in truth, goodness, justice, beauty and love.

What is our ‘capacity’ and is it different for each individual?

We all have the capacity for fulfilment which varies according to our talents, inclinations and choices.

Why are we not perfected in God when we enter Heaven?

We must be morally perfect to enter Heaven but that does not mean we have reached the limit of all our capacities. We share in God’s power which is infinite…

"We do know no one would be penalized through no fault of their own - given that God is infinitely good and loving…Whether he/she is baptized does not affect his/her joy and fulfilment in heaven because baptism is intended for those who wish to be totally identified with Jesus and share in His love, suffering, death, burial and resurrection in this life."
Such a statement seems to be in inherent conflict with itself. Billions have died without baptism. If God is infinitely good and loving, why then would He deny them Heaven - “penalize them through no fault of their own”?

He doesn’t! Although they missed their opportunity on earth they are totally identified with Jesus in Heaven.

Finally, to the original question. I believe babies and children, whether baptized or not, are perfect and pure, being unable to choose between right and wrong (a necessary predicate for sin) and are taken to Heaven upon death, perfect and pure, having claim on the grace of Jesus for their forgiveness.

I entirely agree with you.

 

[Bob4BVM]

I quite agree with you. And I add to it with saying that the Bible does not specifically answer this question. Will babies and children who die still be babies/children in Heaven? What about elderly people who die–do they remain elderly in heaven? Some have guessed that babies are given a resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:35-49) that is “fast-forwarded” to the “ideal age,” just as those who die at an old age are “re-wound” to the ideal age. This would indicate that there won’t be any children or elderly people in heaven.

What is the ideal age? Again, this concept is not specifically biblical. Some believe it to be around 30. Some guess 33 since that is approximately the age Jesus was when He died. First John 3:2 declares, “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

One thing is for certain. Whatever age we appear to be when in the eternal heaven, we will be gloriously perfect. Our entire person will be remade flawless, wholly and completely Christ-like. We will lose all trace of human fallenness, wearing the proverbial white robes of purity, holiness and absolute perfection. So whatever age we are, it will be the age of complete and total perfection.

Fred:
Very good !
You are closer to the truth of the matter than you may guess, and (sadly) closer than our athiest friend will ever be, lost down a blind alley of rationaling God thru mathematics. How pitiful.

What no one here has taken account of is the testimony of personal experience.
When God chooses to reveal His grace to a person, the joy is immense amd there is little room left for doubt
Sadly, that is the only way these questions can be answered, but you first have to open yourself up and ask God in. He is not kicking any doors down.
+Peace,
Bob

 

[AnAtheist]

In neither case is there any evidence that [mathematics] applies to spiritual reality. There is also a Platonist view of mathematics but I don’t think that would appeal to you!

Not really. I’d rather read Platon’s Ευθύφρων and learn something about ethics, but I don’t think that would appeal to you…

Neither books nor forests are rational beings responsible for their behaviour…

That doesn’t matter, neither are books forests, it was meant illustrate the … d’oh, what is “Kategorienfehler” in English? … error in the categories you made.

 

[tonyrey]

That doesn’t matter, neither are books forests, it was meant illustrate the … d’oh, what is “Kategorienfehler” in English? … error in the categories you made.

Why do you put persons in the same category as books and forests?

 

[AnAtheist]

Why do you put persons in the same category as books and forests?

Why not? Categories depend on the context that is described.

 

[tonyrey]

Why not? Categories depend on the context that is described.

And the context is not things but persons, i.e. babies and children in heaven.

 

[A_Dancer_Whirls]

Which of my statements is false and why? Why are we responsible for what we did five (or fifty) years ago?

Quick question…

A man owns a boat for 30 years, the boat is made up of 60 parts. Every year the man replaces two parts of the boat until after 30 years he has replaced every part of the boat. When he replaced the parts he stored the old parts in a hut, he know realises that he has every old part in the hut, so he builds up all the old parts and makes another (non functioning) boat.

Question… Which boat is the original boat?

 

[puzzleannie]

Hi.

Does anyone know if there has been speculation about what happens in heaven to babies and children who have died? What I mean is, do they “grow up” in heaven? Do they become adults instantly?
I doubt there is an official teaching on this, but I’m interested in knowing about what Church Fathers and theologians have had to say (if anything).

Thanks!

quite the opposite, Jesus says we must become like little childrento enter heaven, so we are restored to their state of innocence and ready acceptance of God’s love and their total trust in their Father

 

[sandyelder]

You math guys are way over my head. But, it seems to me that in whatever state we find ourselves after this life, it must consist of something (matter?) and be definable by the laws governing that something, whether they be physical or mathematical or whatever. Certain laws govern this earth. Perhaps the next state is a purer form of matter and therefore operates under different laws. Trying to prove or disprove a different state or dimension using laws that may or may not apply to that dimension seems like an exercise in futility.

Now, back to a response by tonyrey to one of my questions -

Quote:
“We do know no one would be penalized through no fault of their own - given that God is infinitely good and loving…Whether he/she is baptized does not affect his/her joy and fulfilment in heaven because baptism is intended for those who wish to be totally identified with Jesus and share in His love, suffering, death, burial and resurrection in this life.”
Such a statement seems to be in inherent conflict with itself. Billions have died without baptism. If God is infinitely good and loving, why then would He deny them Heaven - “penalize them through no fault of their own”?

Answer: He doesn’t! Although they missed their opportunity on earth they are totally identified with Jesus in Heaven.

Question:
If all, including Jesus, must be baptised to enter heaven (with a recognized baptism), how can those who ‘missed their opportunity’ and are not baptised be identified with Jesus? What then is the purpose of baptism if it is ultimately unnecessary to enter heaven? Do only Christians need baptism?

 

[TKTsunami]

“You math guys are way over my head. But, it seems to me that in whatever state we find ourselves after this life, it must consist of something (matter?) and be definable by the laws governing that something, whether they be physical or mathematical or whatever. Certain laws govern this earth. Perhaps the next state is a purer form of matter and therefore operates under different laws. Trying to prove or disprove a different state or dimension using laws that may or may not apply to that dimension seems like an exercise in futility.”

I understand that the subject of which they are speaking is intimidating, but we cannot plead ignorance and then proceed to speculate without a basis. If Heaven is material, then it is bound by the limits of matter (and of individuation.) For this reason, Thomas said angels do not have matter, because their “to be” cannot in any way be limited as material creatures are in order for them to fulfill the will of God, among other things, according to their purpose. To say things like “Heaven may be a purer form of matter” is, and I say this with no malice (alas the fate of internet discussions, where there is such a limit on inflection!) careless to the point of misleading. We know that Heaven is immaterial and not bound in the same way as material creation is, namely, by material laws.