What happens to Holy Father/Church if Vatican attacked?

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DavidFilmer:
Yes, his Office as Bishop is separate and distinct from his Office as Pope. The Popes of the Avignon Papacy were limited in their ability to exercise their episcopacy, leaving daily operations of the Diocese of Rome in the hands of Auxiliary Bishops.
I am almost 100% sure you are wrong!!! There are not two distinct offices. The fact that some of his functions are delegated to auxiliary bishops makes no difference. There is only one office in question: the Bishop of Rome, or it can be called the Pope.

Please see my link to the encyclopedia article above, also the following canon seems clear to me.
Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of **his office **he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely
note: bolder part is singular, not plural.
 
Simply not correct, at least in what it implies. Being the Pope and being the Bishop of Rome are two inseparable offices (actually that is wrong, they are the SAME office). ** There can not be a Pope who is not the Bishop of Rome. Nor can there be a Bishop of Rome who is not the Pope. **

From newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm :

Same article:
So what happened when the Pope was based in France for 100 years?
 
So what happened when the Pope was based in France for 100 years?
At various times and places in the history of the Church, the occurrence absentee Bishops (a bishop who does not reside in his diocese, or spend much time there) has been a problem. The Avignon Popes were in effect absentee Bishops.

There is a canon law now which requires residence in the diocese of a Diocesan bishop, I do not know that it was always law. Many laws are in place due to scandals that occurred in the past.

Again, the term “Pope” is nothing more than the designation given to the Bishop of Rome. It is the same office. We will never have a pope who is not the Bishop of Rome.
 
Why do people keep asking me “you do know” what happened in 1300s and 16thcentury. 🤷

NO believe it or not I don’t know, I’m a new Catholic educating myself on the faith, hence the question.

Sheesh. I’m going to get my morning coffee now. I’ll be less agro after that 😃
Oops! Sorry about that, I didn’t mean to unsettle your coffee. I can certainly appreciate a good pot or two in the morning.

The story is long, detailed full of good guys turned bad and bad guys turned good. At the time, King Henry VIII was picking out a new hair dresser for his queen, Catherine; probably to be held over for his Boeleyn (apparently short cropped hair, down to the neck was the in-thing). Charles V was the emperor, a champion of Christendom, was fighting off the Turks who were attacking Istanbul under Sultani Suleiman and would soon overrun Hungary. The Pope was Clement VII, Giulio di Giuliano de’ Medici, and coming from the Medici family was waist deep in family politics. Luther was literally raising hell in Germany, pillaging and burning Catholic Churches and monasteries. And like the devil the New Jesus himself would blame his reeducated peasantry for the mayhem. The Pope was both a secular and a spiritual leader of the Papal States. In the Americas the Spaniards were focused on Gold in Peru and the French were discovering the St. Lawrence River. I can only guess what fires were burning in Asia, but it seems just about the entire world was at each other’s throat. And then the Emperor and the Pope both simultaneously decide to become brain dead. In 1524 The Emperor found himself at war with the Papal States in Italy and France - don’t ask why, it would take at least 2 pots of coffee to explain. It was just another day on the blue marble seemingly without rhyme or reason.

In my part of the world history is told through the eyes of the Protestants. As a result the sacking of Rome is usually told with little discussion of the Lutheran influence which was only starting in Germany. Warren H. Carroll describes it this way:

The close association between Lutheran teaching and the revolution was apparent nearly everywhere that rebellion broke out. In southwestern Germany-Swabia and the Black Forest - where uprisings had taken place throughout the summer of 1524, the rebels (usually called “peasants,” though actually they included many townsmen) in March 1525 formulated their demands in twelve articles which were quickly published and spread throughout Germany in some 25,000 copies. The first and the last of these articles were explicitly Lutheran: that each parish should be allowed to choose it own pastor and that all laws were to be based on Scripture. Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol. 4, The Cleaving of Christendom

[As an aside, we should note the similarity of this movement to the Islamic terrorists, in particular the weakening of the established by isolation and governance by the Koran - which by the way was used in the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and the German Third Reich - all disastrous to the world]

Nevertheless, the movement of the Lutheran revolt was more political than spiritual; used as a political tool by the powerful to sway the allegiances of the masses. In this atmosphere the Pope declared war on the Emperor and aligned himself with Francis, King of France. The Emperor writes to the Pope< September 17, 1526, expressing his predictions that such a war would bring Christendom low saying, “The whole of Christendom is in this way shattered, treacherous enemies will drive the Christian flock step by step into false paths; new errors will spring up day by day; the doctrines of heretics will take firmer and firmer root.” One should wonder if Charles V was an emperor or a prophet of God as his prediction was to come true. Then he seems to go brain dead appointing the Colonna family (adversaries of the Medici family) to attack Rome. A large army was put together from all over the Empire including Germany. When it seemed things couldn’t get worse, it did. The army couldn’t be paid and was to quickly dwindle down to about 22,000 men three-quarters of which were commanded by a “ferocious warrior who was a convinced Lutheran as were most of his men.” The Popes forces were committed to other campaigns somewhere in Europe and as a result Rome stood nearly defenseless.

The remnant army was looking for booty and Rome was a cherry to be picked. “Suddenly,” writes Carroll, “this was a Lutheran and not an imperial army, dominated by followers of the man who had called upon his people to wash their hands in the blood of the clergy, eager to make Rome their objective. It could no longer b justly called Charles V’s army, for neither he nor his officers commanded it.” In the interim the Pope had changed his alliances and the army was now a rag tag group of mercenaries marauding down the Apennines eventually camping outside the walls of Rome. The half starved army had no money pay the soldiers and no place to go but forward. On May 6, 1527 they started their attack. After two failed attacks on the walls the marauders suddenly breach the Vatican.

continued. . .
 
Why do people keep asking me “you do know” what happened in 1300s and 16thcentury. 🤷

NO believe it or not I don’t know, I’m a new Catholic educating myself on the faith, hence the question.

Sheesh. I’m going to get my morning coffee now. I’ll be less agro after that 😃
continuation . . .

Warren describes the scene:

Pope Clement VII was praying in his private chapel when the distracted Renzo burst in, screaming that he must flee instantly; he had only minutes, perhaps only seconds to get away. Swords were already swinging and blood running at the high altar of St. Peter’s that stands directly over the bones of the Fisherman, where most of the Swiss Guard, in the noblest moment of their long service, were giving their lives to save the unworthy Pope from the cursing, bellowing horde of armed savages surging into the mother church of Christendom. Still in the glistening white cassock and red skull cap, the Pope ran for his life, accompanied only by the historian Paolo Giovio, who later described the whole fantastic scene. The “covered way” from the Vatican toward Castel Sant’ Aanelo emerges upon an open wooden bridge giving access to the impregnable fortress. It was now full morning and the fog was gone; the Pope in his white cassock high up on the bridge could be seen from a considerable distance, and the attacking army was full of men who had sworn to kill him. Giovio flung his own purple cloak over the Pope to hide his white cassock, took off his skullcap, and hustled him through the gauntlet . . .

Warren continues describing the horror that took place for those who failed the security of fortress. It seems that no one was spared whether it was women, children, wealth or nationality. Those who could not pay ransom were tortured and killed, repeated again in Paris’ great age of Enlightenment. Priests were murdered and mutilated nuns were raped and dragged through the streets as the tormented screams went on through the week. The great golden cross of Constantine was stolen never to be seen again. The head of St. Andrew and veronica’s veil were offered for sale. The torment of the Lutherans went on for a week as shops were turned into stables houses burnt and their occupants murdered. Like the Roman soldiers at the crucifixion the Lutherans gambled for the spoils of Christ’s Body. On June 5th, nearly a month after walls were breached the Pope formally surrendered but was held in Castel Sant’ Angelo for ransom.

The mutinous army scattered all over Italy killing and looting wherever they went. Charles V eventually restored order in Italy and within six months some Papal States were returned. Charles wrote to the cardinals of Rome to explain that the sacking of was none of his doings. After the sacking of Rome the Emperor and the Pope seem to get over their brain deadness just in time for a new epic in history, ‘the rolling Queen heads in England.’ A new Protestant sport.

So, how is our predicament today so much different, the Protestants are still at the gate, and the Muslims threaten the world? Did I miss something?

Source: Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom, Vol. 4, The Cleaving of Christendom.
JoeT
 
continuation . . .

Warren describes the scene:

Pope Clement VII was praying in his private chapel when the distracted Renzo burst in, screaming that he must flee instantly; he had only minutes, perhaps only seconds to get away. Swords were already swinging and blood running at the high altar of St. Peter’s that stands directly over the bones of the Fisherman, where most of the Swiss Guard, in the noblest moment of their long service, were giving their lives to save the unworthy Pope from the cursing, bellowing horde of armed savages surging into the mother church of Christendom. Still in the glistening white cassock and red skull cap, the Pope ran for his life, accompanied only by the historian Paolo Giovio, who later described the whole fantastic scene. The “covered way” from the Vatican toward Castel Sant’ Aanelo emerges upon an open wooden bridge giving access to the impregnable fortress. It was now full morning and the fog was gone; the Pope in his white cassock high up on the bridge could be seen from a considerable distance, and the attacking army was full of men who had sworn to kill him. Giovio flung his own purple cloak over the Pope to hide his white cassock, took off his skullcap, and hustled him through the gauntlet . . .

Warren continues describing the horror that took place for those who failed the security of fortress. It seems that no one was spared whether it was women, children, wealth or nationality. Those who could not pay ransom were tortured and killed, repeated again in Paris’ great age of Enlightenment. Priests were murdered and mutilated nuns were raped and dragged through the streets as the tormented screams went on through the week. The great golden cross of Constantine was stolen never to be seen again. The head of St. Andrew and veronica’s veil were offered for sale. The torment of the Lutherans went on for a week as shops were turned into stables houses burnt and their occupants murdered. Like the Roman soldiers at the crucifixion the Lutherans gambled for the spoils of Christ’s Body. On June 5th, nearly a month after walls were breached the Pope formally surrendered but was held in Castel Sant’ Angelo for ransom.

The mutinous army scattered all over Italy killing and looting wherever they went. Charles V eventually restored order in Italy and within six months some Papal States were returned. Charles wrote to the cardinals of Rome to explain that the sacking of was none of his doings. After the sacking of Rome the Emperor and the Pope seem to get over their brain deadness just in time for a new epic in history, ‘the rolling Queen heads in England.’ A new Protestant sport.

So, how is our predicament today so much different, the Protestants are still at the gate, and the Muslims threaten the world? Did I miss something?

Source: Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom, Vol. 4, The Cleaving of Christendom.
JoeT
Wow that was a fascinating read. Thank you. 🙂
 
Oops! Sorry about that, I didn’t mean to unsettle your coffee. I can certainly appreciate a good pot or two in the morning.

The story is long, detailed full of good guys turned bad and bad guys turned good. At the time, King Henry VIII was picking out a new hair dresser for his queen, Catherine; probably to be held over for his Boeleyn (apparently short cropped hair, down to the neck was the in-thing). Charles V was the emperor, a champion of Christendom, was fighting off the Turks who were attacking Istanbul under Sultani Suleiman and would soon overrun Hungary. The Pope was Clement VII, Giulio di Giuliano de’ Medici, and coming from the Medici family was waist deep in family politics. Luther was literally raising hell in Germany, pillaging and burning Catholic Churches and monasteries. And like the devil the New Jesus himself would blame his reeducated peasantry for the mayhem. The Pope was both a secular and a spiritual leader of the Papal States. In the Americas the Spaniards were focused on Gold in Peru and the French were discovering the St. Lawrence River. I can only guess what fires were burning in Asia, but it seems just about the entire world was at each other’s throat. And then the Emperor and the Pope both simultaneously decide to become brain dead. In 1524 The Emperor found himself at war with the Papal States in Italy and France - don’t ask why, it would take at least 2 pots of coffee to explain. It was just another day on the blue marble seemingly without rhyme or reason.

In my part of the world history is told through the eyes of the Protestants. As a result the sacking of Rome is usually told with little discussion of the Lutheran influence which was only starting in Germany. Warren H. Carroll describes it this way:

The close association between Lutheran teaching and the revolution was apparent nearly everywhere that rebellion broke out. In southwestern Germany-Swabia and the Black Forest - where uprisings had taken place throughout the summer of 1524, the rebels (usually called “peasants,” though actually they included many townsmen) in March 1525 formulated their demands in twelve articles which were quickly published and spread throughout Germany in some 25,000 copies. The first and the last of these articles were explicitly Lutheran: that each parish should be allowed to choose it own pastor and that all laws were to be based on Scripture. Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol. 4, The Cleaving of Christendom

[As an aside, we should note the similarity of this movement to the Islamic terrorists, in particular the weakening of the established by isolation and governance by the Koran - which by the way was used in the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and the German Third Reich - all disastrous to the world]

Nevertheless, the movement of the Lutheran revolt was more political than spiritual; used as a political tool by the powerful to sway the allegiances of the masses. In this atmosphere the Pope declared war on the Emperor and aligned himself with Francis, King of France. The Emperor writes to the Pope< September 17, 1526, expressing his predictions that such a war would bring Christendom low saying, “The whole of Christendom is in this way shattered, treacherous enemies will drive the Christian flock step by step into false paths; new errors will spring up day by day; the doctrines of heretics will take firmer and firmer root.” One should wonder if Charles V was an emperor or a prophet of God as his prediction was to come true. Then he seems to go brain dead appointing the Colonna family (adversaries of the Medici family) to attack Rome. A large army was put together from all over the Empire including Germany. When it seemed things couldn’t get worse, it did. The army couldn’t be paid and was to quickly dwindle down to about 22,000 men three-quarters of which were commanded by a “ferocious warrior who was a convinced Lutheran as were most of his men.” The Popes forces were committed to other campaigns somewhere in Europe and as a result Rome stood nearly defenseless.

The remnant army was looking for booty and Rome was a cherry to be picked. “Suddenly,” writes Carroll, “this was a Lutheran and not an imperial army, dominated by followers of the man who had called upon his people to wash their hands in the blood of the clergy, eager to make Rome their objective. It could no longer b justly called Charles V’s army, for neither he nor his officers commanded it.” In the interim the Pope had changed his alliances and the army was now a rag tag group of mercenaries marauding down the Apennines eventually camping outside the walls of Rome. The half starved army had no money pay the soldiers and no place to go but forward. On May 6, 1527 they started their attack. After two failed attacks on the walls the marauders suddenly breach the Vatican.

continued. . .
Great read, felt like I was there. 👍
 
They must have a plan if the Vatican were attacked to protect it and to protect the Pope. Since they haven’t made it known, nor should they, we don’t know. I would hope the Vatican security guards would do what they can.

I watched the movie about St. Augustine and the Pope has had to be taken out of the Vatican before for his protection. Our Popes has been in danger many times before in history.
 
It does make it kinda hard to minister to the flock in Rome. Fortunately, from the earliest days, Rome has had several Auxiliary Bishops (there are seven ABs today, under a Vicar General (a Cardinal), and we even have a spare Pope 😉 ).
I know you’re joking, and it is funny, but just to clarify for anyone who might be reading without the requisite background:

We do not actually have a spare Pope. We have a living cardinal who used to be Pope and resigned rather than dying.

If Francis dies before Benedict, a new guy will be elected. Benedict has no particular claim on the office just because he is still alive and used to be the Pope. He could be elected a second time, like Grover Cleveland as U.S. President (and I think at least one previous Pope who has two spots on the list), but presumably he would turn down the office since he already resigned once for reasons of age and health.

Usagi
 
So just read that Al Qaeda terrorists were arrested in Italy yesterday, one of their targets was the Vatican. The attack was called off because they suspected they were under surveillance.

What would happen to the Holy Father if (God forbid) :signofcross: and the Church in general if a successful attack was carried out and he managed to survive?

people.com/article/extremists-plotted-attack-vatican-al-qaeda
A Muslim shot JPII in St Peter’s square. Came within a whisker of killing the holy father. In an unbelievable act of mercy, JPII when he recovered, went to see that muslim in prison to forgive him
tldm.org/News13/MehmetAliAgcaToPrayatPopeJohnPaulIIsTomb.htm
 
So just read that Al Qaeda terrorists were arrested in Italy yesterday, one of their targets was the Vatican. The attack was called off because they suspected they were under surveillance.

What would happen to the Holy Father if (God forbid) :signofcross: and the Church in general if a successful attack was carried out and he managed to survive?

people.com/article/extremists-plotted-attack-vatican-al-qaeda
JPII was almost assasinated by a muslim in St Peter’s square… When JPII recovered, ( he came within a whisker of dieing) in an unbelievable gesture of mercy, JPII visited his would be assassin who was then in prison for that attempt, to forgive him
 
The popes in Avignon didn’t renounce being bishops of Rome, like St. Peter left off being Bishop of Antioch and appointed another bishop there to take his place, when he left for Rome to become Rome’s bishop.

The Avignon popes were basically refugees from the trouble going on in Rome.

(And prisoners of the French king, more or less.)

That said… there’s not anything to prevent the Pope from saying one bright day, “I’ve decided that I need to move my Seat to Alpha Centauri to conduct evangelization there, and from now on Rome will only be a city in Italy. Don’t worry; I’ll leave you guys a bishop.” I don’t see why that would happen, but there’s nothing against it.

(But since that would be a big recipe for anti-popes, it would be kinda stupid to do it unless God directly commanded the Pope to do it. So it will probably never happen.)
 
This basically happened with the 1848 revolution and the short-lived Roman Republic which followed. Bl. Pius IX had to flee in disguise to Gaeta.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_IX_and_Italy#1848_revolution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_IX_and_Italy#Roman_Republic

Also, in preparation for Vatican II, the bishops were asked to send in suggestions for the agenda. One of the US bishops, Bishop Ahr of Trenton, proposed that some provision should be made for what the Church should do if enemies of the Church were to use an atomic bomb to kill the Pope, Cardinals, and all the other bishops assembled for the Council. It is unclear if any provision was ever made.
 
Why do people keep asking me “you do know” what happened in 1300s and 16thcentury. 🤷

NO believe it or not I don’t know, I’m a new Catholic educating myself on the faith, hence the question.

Sheesh. I’m going to get my morning coffee now. I’ll be less agro after that 😃
Don’t worry, most Catholics don’t know either. One needs to study Church history to know all those things, after all, the Church has been around for 2015 years.

I took a class in Church history last year. A very interesting class, mostly video tapes from Steve Weidenkopf. It’s called “Epic, a Journey through Church History.” Maybe your parish can show it. We had our religion teacher help with it in the evenings from the school. If they can’t do that than you can buy the whole series but it’s expensive or go to youtube and look him up on there. I think they show little parts of it. Go to EWTN on youtube as well. There is a ton of info out there if we look for it.
 
Don’t worry, most Catholics don’t know either. One needs to study Church history to know all those things, after all, the Church has been around for 2015 years.

I took a class in Church history last year. A very interesting class, mostly video tapes from Steve Weidenkopf. It’s called “Epic, a Journey through Church History.” Maybe your parish can show it. We had our religion teacher help with it in the evenings from the school. If they can’t do that than you can buy the whole series but it’s expensive or go to youtube and look him up on there. I think they show little parts of it. Go to EWTN on youtube as well. There is a ton of info out there if we look for it.
I’ll check out youtube. Thank you for the suggestion.
 
I am almost 100% sure you are wrong!!! There are not two distinct offices. The fact that some of his functions are delegated to auxiliary bishops makes no difference. There is only one office in question: the Bishop of Rome, or it can be called the Pope.

Please see my link to the encyclopedia article above, also the following canon seems clear to me.

note: bolder part is singular, not plural.
He doesn’t become the Bishop of Rome until after he is elected POPE. Before the election he is still a Cardinal. God Bless, Memaw
 
So just read that Al Qaeda terrorists were arrested in Italy yesterday, one of their targets was the Vatican. The attack was called off because they suspected they were under surveillance.

What would happen to the Holy Father if (God forbid) :signofcross: and the Church in general if a successful attack was carried out and he managed to survive?

people.com/article/extremists-plotted-attack-vatican-al-qaeda
If he survived, he would pray for his attackers and go back to being the head Pastor of The Catholic Church. If he didn’t survive, a new conclave would be called and a new Pope elected. If the Vatican were destroyed, another city, perhaps Avignon, would be chosen for a temporary place for the See of Peter.
 
I enjoyed reading this account that we seldom get to read. Thanks!
 
Simply not correct, at least in what it implies. Being the Pope and being the Bishop of Rome are two inseparable offices (actually that is wrong, they are the SAME office). There can not be a Pope who is not the Bishop of Rome. Nor can there be a Bishop of Rome who is not the Pope.

From newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm :

Same article:
That’s true but He has to be elected POPE before he can be the Bishop of Rome. Not the other way around. He is installed in the office of Bishop after he is elected Pope. He can’t be installed before the Election !! God Bless, Memaw
 
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